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The Height Hierarchy


MightilyOats

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Pfft, whatabout the short guys who still kick ass - tormund, belwas... Wait, that's it.

And as far as realistic representations of people go, I recall that belwas is 15 stone or so, at about 5'5", has tree trunk arms and a massive keg belly. All those things cannot occur at once, unless he's missing a limb - or we accept grrm's world for what it is and enjoy the rest anyway.

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Pfft, whatabout the short guys who still kick ass - tormund, belwas... Wait, that's it.

And as far as realistic representations of people go, I recall that belwas is 15 stone or so, at about 5'5", has tree trunk arms and a massive keg belly. All those things cannot occur at once, unless he's missing a limb - or we accept grrm's world for what it is and enjoy the rest anyway.

Dany first thought him to be about 20 stones(280lbs), then 15 stones(210lbs). I feel that may be a writing error, because that's a very big difference in size and weight. So, we really don't know how tall he is.

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I'm not sure if this has been done elsewhere (though it likely has, this board seems to have been around for awhile) but I think it'd be fun to list everyone, from tallest to shortest, and give approximate heights if you feel you've got it figured out.

For example, Brienne (by Martin's own words) is about as tall as Robert, who was a confirmed 6'6", but slightly shorter than the Hound.

So I've always pegged the Hound to be around 6'7"-6'9", but no taller. I'll say 6'8". That's also about how tall I'd say Dunk is. Closer to seven feet than to 6, and quite a bit taller than the vast majority of people he meets. There's also his being taller than even the Laughing Storm, who was so obviously a physical stand-in for Robert it was stupid.

Jaime and Renly are both described as tall men, though in both cases shorter than Brienne. So to them, I'd say about 6'2". Martin seemed to think of them as alike in physical size here: http://www.westeros....ienne_of_Tarth/ and going off various descriptions that seems roughly accurate.

Victarion "towers" over other men, but is himself shorter than Andrik, who is described as a giant of a man. Victation I'd peg at 6'9" and Andrik at 7 feet.

Stannis is a weird one. Hes never been compared, directly, to either of his brothers but Jon describes him as towering over him. Stannis I'd say would be about 6'4".

So we've got Gregor at the top at a confirmed what, 7'10"?

Gregor Clegane - 7'10"

Greatjon Umber/Hodor/Andrik - 7'

Victarion Greyjoy - 6'9"

Sandor Clegane/Ser Duncan the Tall/Bronze Yohn Royce - 6'8"

Robert Baratheon/Brienne of Tarth - 6'6"

Who can fill in some more blanks? Eddard would have been what, 5'10"? So..."tall" but still in the average range.

7'1" feet is already a freakishly tall height. I'd put Gregor right up there, its what the actor who played him in S1 was. Any taller and he couldn't possibly be a good fighter any more, not for anatomical reasons but for the sheer physical impossibility of moving fast enough.

"Towering over other people" means not 7 feet, that's way too much. It could just as well mean 6'1" or 6'2". I am 6'2" (1.92 m) and despite living in a country of tall people (Germany) I can easily look above the heads of other people when standing in a crowd. So I am already almost "towering" over others. Stannis doesn't have to be 6'4" to tower over Jon.

Just check out the height of the actors in the TV show... Conan Stevens who did a very intimidating Gregor Clegane in Season 1 is 7'1" (2.16 m). Forget about anyone being any taller than him.

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He's described as monstruously tall, and Sandor is not dramatically shorter.

I'd place the Mountain at 7'8'', the Smalljon and Greatjon at between 7' and 7'4'' and Sandor Clegane at between 6'10'' and 7''.

The Mountain is described as taller, but Sansa doesn't say he towers over Sandor. Therefore I'd assume Gregor has less than half a foot on him.

As for Stannis, nobody describes Jon as short, so he'd be at least 5'8'', and he might well be 6 feet tall. It wouldn't be insane to assume Stannis is at least 6'2'' or 6'4'' if he indeed towers over Jon.

Nobility are well fed. There's little reason to assume they would be shorter than modern-age people.

When GRRM was describing Brienne he said she was roughly the same height as Robert who is for sure six and half feet tall (6'6"), he also points out that she is nowhere near Gregor who is "the true giant of the story" in terms of the humans. He also says she is shorter then the GreatJon and Hodor, and "a bit shorter then the Hound." It is stated in one of Ned's chapter in GoT that Hodor dwarfs Robert, his brothers and the Hound, yet Gregor towers over Hodor, being closer to eight feet.

7'1" feet is already a freakishly tall height. I'd put Gregor right up there, its what the actor who played him in S1 was. Any taller and he couldn't possibly be a good fighter any more, not for anatomical reasons but for the sheer physical impossibility of moving fast enough.

"Towering over other people" means not 7 feet, that's way too much. It could just as well mean 6'1" or 6'2". I am 6'2" (1.92 m) and despite living in a country of tall people (Germany) I can easily look above the heads of other people when standing in a crowd. So I am already almost "towering" over others. Stannis doesn't have to be 6'4" to tower over Jon.

Just check out the height of the actors in the TV show... Conan Stevens who did a very intimidating Gregor Clegane in Season 1 is 7'1" (2.16 m). Forget about anyone being any taller than him.

So the author of the story is wrong about Gregor's height having said him to be at least 7'6"?

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The author can say people are as big as he likes, and thus they are, because he literally created them - how can anyone say Gregor isn't taller than 7'6" when George has said that he is? Who made Gregor, was it GrrM or some internet commentors?

It is fine to say that it is a little unrealstic, it takes you out of the story, it ruins the realism (of a story including zombies, dragons and wizards), or you don't think it is well thought out (like how i don't think belwas' weight/dimensions works), but you can't say something isn't known when it is known. There are some characters whose heights are unquestionable, they have been stated in the books, and some characters who have been compared to those known height characters. That is what i think this thread is supposed to be all about (that and ressurecting a long dead discussion - praise rh'llor!).

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So the author of the story is wrong about Gregor's height having said him to be at least 7'6"?

Yes, I think so. :D

You don't have to take everything GRRM says seriously. It's not the Star Trek companion books. (And even those, you are not supposed to take so seriously.) He says lots of things about his characters in emails or at conventions in a very off-hand, improvised manner. And sometimes even in the books.

You're not supposed to treat every word he says so seriously, especially when they are about scientific stuff which he doesn't care so much about and about which he has no real intuition. Distances, travel times, heights, the tensile strength and elasticity module of Valyrian steel... come on, he wrote that the wall was 800 feet high in AGOT and many years later after a visit to the TV show set he said that was much too high, and he'd have made it less high had he known how ridiculously high that is at the time he was writing AGOT.

Gregor Clegane might be 7'6" according to GRRM but I imagine him 7'1" because frankly it makes a lot more sense.

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You guys treat the story as if it was a factual report. As if GRRM had written it down at a police station like a witness' report. Or as if he was a prophet who wrote it down as it was dictated to him word-by-word by some deity whose words are not to be questioned.

But it's just a story, and he made it all up as a work of art, intended to entertain. It has internal logic, like all good stories do, but every "fact" in the story was made up FOR A PURPOSE - because the author wanted it just like that, believing it to contribute to the internal logic of the story and its artistic / entertainment value as he perceived it. It's just a story, if anyone perceives its artistic / entertainment value differently he's free to change. Fictional stories exist to be re-told and re-adapted, not to be written down in stone and treated like fact. ;)

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Gregor could work if you imagine that he's got proportionally very thick bones and joints. Martin seems to be well aware of body height and it's effects on bone strain, in Wild Cards there's a charcter called Tiny who's 14 foot tall and normally proportioned and can only move around in a wheelchair and is in constant agony because his body can't support his weight.

There seems to be a lack of short knights (at least any worthy of respect) in the series and a surprising multitude of very tall men |(and women for that matter.) Either he's not mentioning it, or he just has an obsession with height. Glendon Flowers/Ball from the Mystery Knight is the only one I can think of and he comes across like a Bulldog: 'He was short and chunky, with thick shoulders and arms heavy with muscle. He had with small, close-set eyes, thick eyebrows, a big nose and a prominent chin.'

Also Tyrion, he's far far better in a fight than he should be... :dunno:

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I think these totals are all overestimations considering the standards of medieval times. I mean, King Edward IV (who Robert is based on) is estimated to be about 6"4 and he was considered a giant, whereas his brother Richard III (who had scoliosis) stood at 5"8 and that would have even been "above average" height. A couple of years ago I went to Westminster Abbey and saw the tomb of Geoffrey Chaucer (who would have had a good medieval diet, even if it wasn't to the standard of Edward's and Richard's) and his tomb could not have accommodated a body more that 5 feet tall.

So, I think if you are talking about the height of characters it would have to be something as followed.

The Mountain - 6"5

The Hound - 6"4

Hodor - 6"2

Robert - 6"0

Brienne - 6"0

Jaime - 5"10

Renly - 5"10

Ned - 5"8/5"7

Even then, all these characters would be above average height, and especially Brienne. Especially considering that Matilda of Flanders, wife of William the Conqueror, is estimated to be between 4"2 and 5"0 and this would have been a perfectly average height for a woman at the time, Brienne would be a giant, and considered more of a giant than the Hound, especially as Brienne has more contact with commoners who would have had a worse diets than all the aristocratic men at court.

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Gregor could work if you imagine that he's got proportionally very thick bones and joints. Martin seems to be well aware of body height and it's effects on bone strain, in Wild Cards there's a charcter called Tiny who's 14 foot tall and normally proportioned and can only move around in a wheelchair and is in constant agony because his body can't support his weight.

There seems to be a lack of short knights (at least any worthy of respect) in the series and a surprising multitude of very tall men |(and women for that matter.) Either he's not mentioning it, or he just has an obsession with height. Glendon Flowers/Ball from the Mystery Knight is the only one I can think of and he comes across like a Bulldog: 'He was short and chunky, with thick shoulders and arms heavy with muscle. He had with small, close-set eyes, thick eyebrows, a big nose and a prominent chin.'

Also Tyrion, he's far far better in a fight than he should be... :dunno:

Like most people GRRM only mentions someone's height when it is unusual. He never says "Loras is tall", does he? So there's one average-height or even slightly-below-average height guy for you.

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There seems to be a lack of short knights (at least any worthy of respect) in the series and a surprising multitude of very tall men |(and women for that matter.) Either he's not mentioning it, or he just has an obsession with height. Glendon Flowers/Ball from the Mystery Knight is the only one I can think of and he comes across like a Bulldog: 'He was short and chunky, with thick shoulders and arms heavy with muscle. He had with small, close-set eyes, thick eyebrows, a big nose and a prominent chin.'

Also Tyrion, he's far far better in a fight than he should be... :dunno:

I thought this was because most characters we see and encounter are aristocrats, or in an aristocratic circle and therefore have access to a good, aristocratic diet that would make you "tall" for the period. That's in contrast with all the starving peasants who would have poor diets and therefore be short.

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I think these totals are all overestimations considering the standards of medieval times. I mean, King Edward IV (who Robert is based on) is estimated to be about 6"4 and he was considered a giant, whereas his brother Richard III (who had scoliosis) stood at 5"8 and that would have even been "above average" height. A couple of years ago I went to Westminster Abbey and saw the tomb of Geoffrey Chaucer (who would have had a good medieval diet, even if it wasn't to the standard of Edward's and Richard's) and his tomb could not have accommodated a body more that 5 feet tall.

So, I think if you are talking about the height of characters it would have to be something as followed.

The Mountain - 6"5

The Hound - 6"4

Hodor - 6"2

Robert - 6"0

Brienne - 6"0

Jaime - 5"10

Renly - 5"10

Ned - 5"8/5"7

Even then, all these characters would be above average height, and especially Brienne. Especially considering that Matilda of Flanders, wife of William the Conqueror, is estimated to be between 4"2 and 5"0 and this would have been a perfectly average height for a woman at the time, Brienne would be a giant, and considered more of a giant than the Hound, especially as Brienne has more contact with commoners who would have had a worse diets than all the aristocratic men at court.

Well if you wanted to imagine ASOIAF in a real medieval context then yeah you would definitely need to adjust them all downwards. But I just imagine it as making sense in a modern day continental US context where average height in guys is something like 172-176 cm, 185 cm is "he's a tall guy" and 195 is "he's a REALLY tall guy".

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The Mountain - 6"5

The Hound - 6"4

Seeing how the Mountain makes men look like children next to him and is nearly 8 foot tall (about as high as a 6 foot person could reach) even lowering everyone's heights he's well above 6'5'' Certainly more than an inch taller than his brother, Sandor is taller than most, but Gregor is in a league of his own.

Like most people GRRM only mentions someone's height when it is unusual. He never says "Loras is tall", does he? So there's one average-height or even slightly-below-average height guy for you.

I thought this was because most characters we see and encounter are aristocrats, or in an aristocratic circle and therefore have access to a good, aristocratic diet that would make you "tall" for the period. That's in contrast with all the starving peasants who would have poor diets and therefore be short.

I didn't say there weren't average height people around, just that there aren't many short. Nutrition is of course important but genetics sets the upper limit, the British Royal family were short for years. Besides we get tall lower class guys: Dunk (spent most of his youth on the streets, then travelling around with a poor Hedge Knight) and he's huge, Small Paul is large and lower class, as is Grenn.

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Seeing how the Mountain makes men look like children next to him and is nearly 8 foot tall (about as high as a 6 foot person could reach) even lowering everyone's heights he's well above 6'5'' Certainly more than an inch taller than his brother, Sandor is taller than most, but Gregor is in a league of his own.

I didn't say there weren't average height people around, just that there aren't many short. Nutrition is of course important but genetics sets the upper limit, the British Royal family were short for years. Besides we get tall lower class guys: Dunk (spent most of his youth on the streets, then travelling around with a poor Hedge Knight) and he's huge, Small Paul is large and lower class, as is Grenn.

It's true there aren't many short or average height men, and I think we probably have to deduce that whoever's height is not mentioned is average height! It's just nearly 8" tall is huge, and I think it would give him a bit of a disadvantage when he had to fight men who were that much shorter than him, who could just whip around him and knock him over. That's why I'd say (in my head at least!) he's between 6"5 and 6"8 because then he could be a "giant" and still an effective knight!

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It's true there aren't many short or average height men, and I think we probably have to deduce that whoever's height is not mentioned is average height! It's just nearly 8" tall is huge, and I think it would give him a bit of a disadvantage when he had to fight men who were that much shorter than him, who could just whip around him and knock him over. That's why I'd say (in my head at least!) he's between 6"5 and 6"8 because then he could be a "giant" and still an effective knight!

The one thing I struggle the most with about Gregor as he's described is his horse. I'm in no way an expert but I can't see a horse tolerating a 30 stone man. But armoured head to toe in plate (which was pretty much impenetrable anyway,) with a kite shield and a sword that is long enough for his height, he'd be an absolute terror. Especially in a melee situation which is just about brute strength and not about fancy footwork.

I think as long as you accept that Gregor is enormous and formidably strong it doesn't matter too much.

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The one thing I struggle the most with about Gregor as he's described is his horse. I'm in no way an expert but I can't see a horse tolerating a 30 stone man. But armoured head to toe in plate (which was pretty much impenetrable anyway,) with a kite shield and a sword that is long enough for his height, he'd be an absolute terror. Especially in a melee situation which is just about brute strength and not about fancy footwork.

I think as long as you accept that Gregor is enormous and formidably strong it doesn't matter too much.

That's true, I hadn't thought of that. And when he chops the horses head off, there probably aren't that many horses strong enough to hold him! Has GRRM stated there are giant horses in Westeros at any point lol

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It's true there aren't many short or average height men, and I think we probably have to deduce that whoever's height is not mentioned is average height! It's just nearly 8" tall is huge, and I think it would give him a bit of a disadvantage when he had to fight men who were that much shorter than him, who could just whip around him and knock him over. That's why I'd say (in my head at least!) he's between 6"5 and 6"8 because then he could be a "giant" and still an effective knight!

The first two short fighting men that come to my mind instantly is Ser Preston Greenfield of the KG and the Mad Mouse, but thats about it. But I guess these guys have no excuses really, what with Tyrion fighting that well at the Blackwater! :P

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That's true, I hadn't thought of that. And when he chops the horses head off, there probably aren't that many horses strong enough to hold him! Has GRRM stated there are giant horses in Westeros at any point lol

Nope, just that Gregor fancies large, fierce, ill0tempered stallions, (which frankly most warhorses would be anyway.)

Greenfield! Nice one Grip.

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