Will they use any CGI?

[arrowfan]

The wall is a pretty central theme in ASOIAF, so I'm wondering how the HBO series will film it. CGI right? Not sure if their budget can cover that kinda thing though...

[Jack Sparrow]

The Wall is out. Official reason given: too cold.

[Ran]

CGI: Yes. I've seen the bluescreens and all that jazz. They've hired BlueBolt as VFX leads -- the team members have prior experience on films such as TROY, THE QUANTUM OF SOLACE, PRINCE OF PERSIA, AVATAR, and more.

But, it's a TV show. A very expensive TV show by network standards, but still a TV show. Don't expect LotR-level vistas and giant battle scenes and the like. And don't expect "bigatures" -- I certainly saw no hint of those anywhere.

The Wall is basically using the face of Magheramorne qarry, which they may then color correct to look icier, and there will probably be CGI inserts to make it look 700 feet tall at times. As with most TV shows of this sort, certain shots will be reused repeatedly -- you'll see the same establishing shot of Winterfell or King's Landing again and again, over multiple episodes.

[arrowfan]

CGI: Yes. I've seen the bluescreens and all that jazz. They've hired BlueBolt as VFX leads -- the team members have prior experience on films such as TROY, THE QUANTUM OF SOLACE, PRINCE OF PERSIA, AVATAR, and more.

But, it's a TV show. A very expensive TV show by network standards, but still a TV show. Don't expect LotR-level vistas and giant battle scenes and the like. And don't expect "bigatures" -- I certainly saw no hint of those anywhere.

The Wall is basically using the face of Magheramorne qarry, which they may then color correct to look icier, and there will probably be CGI inserts to make it look 700 feet tall at times. As with most TV shows of this sort, certain shots will be reused repeatedly -- you'll see the same establishing shot of Winterfell or King's Landing again and again, over multiple episodes.

Sweeeet!! I thought you might have some inside info, Ran :rolleyes: I don't mind not having LOTR scale eye candy, as long as the wall is impressive.

[JungianQueen]

I'm also wondering about the dragons, especially if this series gets a greenlight for season 2.

[Werthead]

I'm also wondering about the dragons, especially if this series gets a greenlight for season 2.

Almost certainly CGI. There was some speculation that they might go for animatronics, which can sometimes look excellent, but based on the excellent CGI creatures the far-lower-budgeted Merlin has put out this season (though they need to update their dragon, it's looking crap now it's out of the dark and moving around in better light), HBO should have no issues getting some decent CG dragons for the very end of Season 1. Animatronics might work better in S2 (when the dragons are pretty much always draped around Daenerys) and then CGI only in S3 when the dragons spend a lot of time flying around out of sight.

Of course, Merlin also had some great shots of a massive 20,000-strong army on the march to assault Camelot. Not a lot of shots (a dozen or so and some more next week, from the look of it), obviously, but enough to sell it. The news that GoT might not even try to do the Blackwater when other, far cheaper shows are doing really impressive stuff effects-wise is concerning, but representative of HBO's past conservatism in major CGI effects work (we also saw this in Rome, when the CGI guys were actually pretty frustrated with HBO tying their hands and not allowing them to do more). Considering that HBO are often insanely ambitious with practical effects (such as in Band of Brothers, The Pacific, John Adams and some stuff in True Blood) and use CG a lot for background work, their lack of ambition with front-and-centre CG is bemusing.

[The Iceman of the North]

I'm also wondering about the dragons, especially if this series gets a greenlight for season 2.

Nah, CGI is probably too expensive for the dragons, so they'll likely have to use real dragons.

[williamjm]

Nah, CGI is probably too expensive for the dragons, so they'll likely have to use real dragons.

It might be cheaper, but film-makers have a saying - "Never work with small children, animals or dragons".

[jurble]

1. Tape wings to a komodo dragon.

2. Spray paint komodo dragon, and glue on some frills and horns.

3. ????

4. Profit.

[Ran]

I think shots of giant armies marching is one thing. A 'Charge of the Rohirrim' sort of thing with thousands of digital agents duking it out independently, though, is very likely beyond them. Showing scores of ships and thousands of men locked in battle would probably be difficult, too. OTOH, showing scores of ships sailing up towards King's Landing, that'd likely be doable it seems to me...

I'm not sure they're going to be lacking ambition on this particular show, but with the many sets and locations, and the many, many actors, their VFX budget is probably not quite as much as one would ideally want.

[Padraig]

The news that GoT might not even try to do the Blackwater

Was that said? I thought it was more that it wouldn't be as huge as in the books? So I could see a lot of Tyrion's stuff been left in but Davos and the chain stuff might be an issue. And the Sansa part is ideal.

[smegma]

I'm glad that HBO minimizes CGI in their shows. Nothing worse than seeing dated CGI effects just to show unnecessary scale (large battles, etc). Keep it to the things that are imperative to the story such as the wall and dragons and it will showcase the actual set pieces, costumes, story and characters that much more - all of which I find much more impressive than a CGI army.

[Werthead]

I think shots of giant armies marching is one thing. A 'Charge of the Rohirrim' sort of thing with thousands of digital agents duking it out independently, though, is very likely beyond them.

The Rome episode Philippi did have a couple of shots of hundreds of digital agents duking it out independently (IIRC there was speculation they were even using Massive, or at least a similar programme) though.

The interesting thing about the Merlin Season 3 two-part opener was that it was obviously done on a budget but they also pushed the envelope and were really ambitious, given how limited their effects were in the first two seasons. There was a series of shots of large groups of soldiers fighting around a gateway which must have been done using lots of digital agents and it worked reasonably well, even if it was absolutely nothing on the scale of LotR.

I'm not sure they're going to be lacking ambition on this particular show, but with the many sets and locations, and the many, many actors, their VFX budget is probably not quite as much as one would ideally want.

Agreed, but when we consider what Caprica achieved with literally one-fifth-per-episode the budget of Thrones (and they had a reasonably-sized regular and recurring cast as well, if nothing like GoT's number of speaking roles), then it would be surprising if Thrones really didn't do much with CGI. That said, Thrones has far more location filming and probably many more props, as well as much larger sets, so that may eat more into the budget.

[Ran]

Yes, that'd eat into the budget. I'm sure there'll be a lot of digital stuff that we won't even notice, really.

I haven't seen the Merlin episode in question, but I'd suspect they'd use digital compositing -- film a few guys fighting and replicate them a few times -- rather than digital agents. That seems to be one way to build up large scenes quickly and on the cheap. I've heard that GoT has already been using this for some of the filming they've been doing, though not for battle scenes.

LotR was the specific comparison I heard bandied about, anyways. They're not aiming for that sort of scale of VFX work. I think part of it is a matter of just the visual quality of it -- digital compositing tricks can give you a really big scene, but at the same time, it can be rather obvious. Between showing an epic, expansive battlefield that twinges your 'Fake' sensor and a tighter, more intimate take on the action that doesn't, I'm guessing they're going to go with the latter in most cases -- "realistic" seemed to be a word people on the production seemed to be big on. I do expect a lot of subtle digital compositing and CG, though, especially for background scenery. The stuff where you're least likely to realize its CG.

FWIW, I always thought Rome's Phillipi was not very impressive. Felt too static. Similarly, I recall being totally thrown out of a Caprica scene set in that Pyramid stadium in Caprica City because the cheering crowds were so obviously duplicated.

[smegma]

Yeah I remember that Rome bit and I was not impressed. Anything that gets that triggers a "fake" sensor is what I hope to not see. As Ran puts it, I hope they do small, intimate battle scenes that have a real feel to them than anything outlandish.

[Ran]

I mean, obviously, if they can do big battles on budget and have it look really good, then I hope they'd do that. But it does seem they're aiming squarely at realism, at least from what I've gathered.

[So1ar]

iirc there's only two major battle scenes in this first book right? the whispering wood and when roose's forces clash with tywin's. they could have each battle follow the pov of the character taking place in it. for example catelyn could hear most of the battle taking place and they could show a few scenes with jaime charging after rob and him being captured. plus it's a night so it's not like you'll be able to see a massive army.

my thoughts are jumbled together so i don't know if that makes any sense.

p.s. as long as they show the scene in the whispering wood with jaime in his gold armor hacking men down left and right and yelling "i'm coming for you stark!" i'll be happy.

[JungianQueen]

Nah, CGI is probably too expensive for the dragons, so they'll likely have to use real dragons.

:spank:

[Padraig]

iirc there's only two major battle scenes in this first book right? the whispering wood and when roose's forces clash with tywin's. they could have each battle follow the pov of the character taking place in it. for example catelyn could hear most of the battle taking place and they could show a few scenes with jaime charging after rob and him being captured. plus it's a night so it's not like you'll be able to see a massive army.

Makes sense. And happens to be close to the books.

[Dennai]

The first season's battles would be probably handled from the points of view of the main actors, close to the way they are described in the book, so no worries there.

I am not too concerned with the Blackwater battle. You only need a couple of establishing shots of Stannis 'army arriving to the other side of the river seen from the distant walls and shots of the fleet advancing toward the bay (ala Troy)and being destroyed by the green fire. By today standards, neither of those would be too complicated or demanding, and I reckon they are fairly inexpensive. The meat of the scene will be centered in the actors' actions and reactions (Davos and Tyrion, mainly).

Now, the battle on the Wall is a different matter. That one will probably be downgraded big time.