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Ser_not_appearing_yet

All-purpose TV nitpick extravaganza thread.

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I'm not quite sure that I follow your point here. I read Catelyn as being a very faithful and loving wife, with Jon's presence a constant nagging thorn in her side. Whereas Cersei hates Robert

for calling another's name in the marriage bed, makes sure that she gets rid of Robert's legitimate issue, and bears three blond children for Jaime.

And with that power-fuelled chip on her shoulder, Cersei has every incentive to conserve her good looks and youthfulness.

My point was just that you seemed to be saying that Jon's presence ought to contribute to the explanation for the appearance issues that Cypher was talking about. I don't see how that works, I would think particularly that being in a loving relationship would make things easier. Unless you're saying that Jon's presence is a disincentive for Catelyn to not conserve her good looks and youthfulness? I didn't get the feeling that you were, and if so I don't quite understand the logic there either, but anyway, I suppose it's not of much use to debate at this point :)

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Was it this still? I thought it was serious enough.

Yeah, I always pictured his scars as really horrific-looking, and covering one entire side of his face, not just the cheek. That guy just looks so.... normal.

Also: I like Fairley as Catelyn. Yes, she looks like a middle-aged woman. That's how I pictured her. It seems appropriate for her to look more careworn than Cersei; Cersei uses her sexuality as a weapon and so it's only to be expected that she spends a lot of time and effort on her appearance. Catelyn's in a solid marriage and has had a whole bunch of kids and has a lot of responsibilities, so facial creams are going to be further down on her priority list. Besides which, from virtually the beginning of the story, she's worried and stressed out most of the time, and that's going to take its toll.

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You know, not to get into this too much, but all the characters live in a medieval world without modern medical care and plastic surgery and the like, and Catelyn's life isn't any kind of outlier as far as hardship is concerned.

I don't think the Jon factor is huge but i'm sure living in the North is tougher than living as Queen in KL. Been the mother of 5 kids is probably tougher than 3. Cersei probably is a lot more focused on her looks also. There probably is more of an age difference between the 2 in the TV series than in the books but that isn't a problem given how they have aged most people. Anyhow, i've always thought finding a problem with Catelyn was a bit silly.

Yeah, I always pictured his scars as really horrific-looking, and covering one entire side of his face, not just the cheek. That guy just looks so.... normal.

Huh. Pre-conceptions really do make a difference but his forehead is also badly scared. He covers it with his hair but that is one huge scar to me. I can't see how anyone could think that normal. And Sansa certainly wouldn't.

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I think it's fair to like Fairley in the role, obviously. But I do think the explanations for the appearance are a bit as if Catelyn lived in her own little TV Mommy Issues bubble. It's tougher living in the north, but Ned also lives in the north as do many other characters who rough around in it more. She's raising five kids, but so is Ned, and his division of the daily duties is probably more physically demanding. If you find her appearance commensurate with Ned's, I think that's fine of course, but I mean, someone can honestly not as well. Yes she's stressed out during the story, but the opinion of people who meet her during the story doesn't seem to suggest that it affects her appearance in a long-lasting way. It would also make sense for Sansa to get her aesthetic from her mother, as people tend to assume. Anyway, I'm not saying you have to find a problem with it if you don't think it's a problem, but I dunno, the explanation of her particularly hard life doesn't seem right to me. You'd expect the various toils that exist in other characters' lives to be more evident also, if that's the level of realism you're going for in the show. Ros the redheaded whore would look really different if "medievally" accurate, for example. People interpret the visual cues as a whole and create characterizations from that. JMO.

But again, I don't necessarily think it's bad to have Fairley in the role. There's a lot left to see from HBO's corner :) For myself, I do hope they are not going for a particularly embattled Catelyn, I don't think it's right for the character, so actor aside I'd like to see the hair and makeup and costume reflect someone who is relatively comfortable and aware of her status as an extremely highborn noblewoman.

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Initial impressions were mostly good, but my snarky side did creep in when viewing:

Ned and Jory... on white horses. Huh? That's just jarring. Brown is fine for the northmen. Leave the white horses for the Targeryans and cocky pricks like Jaime Lannister.

Why is Aiden Gillen dressed like Morpheus from one of the Matrix sequels?

Neds brown hair was fantastic in the first teaser screenshot we got. They tinkered with it... now it's all "Hi I'm Sean Bean... you may recognize me as the auburn-haired Boromir from the Lord of the Rings films (PS: I'm a badass fighter, rarrrgh!)"

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I agree about the horses, that really stood out to me. Otherwise, I'm sure any small disconnects between my imagination and HBO's will disappear once I get caught up in the actual show. BTW, Jaime may not look quite as pretty as I imagined but he sure is HOT! :drool:

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If you find her appearance commensurate with Ned's, I think that's fine of course, but I mean, someone can honestly not as well.

Indeed, I think Ned definitely looks older than Catelyn. IIRC, she is supposed to be around 40 in the TV series. Some people seem to be expecting a 40 year old babe. Or something. It's just not realistic.

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I really don't think people are expecting a babe. Nobody really was happy when the Holly Marie Combs rumors were going around IIRC, myself included (though unlike many I didn't think Jennifer Ehle was the best fit for the part either). I honestly think some (some!) people are just not sold on Fairley in the part, despite her pluses as an actor. I myself have not ever really felt Bean was exactly right for the part of Ned, ever, and I don't think anything ill of him. I think for some people they're honestly just not getting the "This is the character I know and love" (or in this case possibly "hate") feeling. I'm not getting it from Fairley yet (I'm willing to wait and see of course, she's an obscure actress and it's just hard to get to know her), and I know I wasn't feeling it with a babe like Holly Marie Combs or even the (realistically) lovely Jennifer Ehle either.

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Ned, Jon, and Arya have brown hair, not black:

Thanks Ran. Though now the nit pick is that why is Jon Snow's hair black in the teevee show? It should be brown. Will Lyanna's hair be retconned as black too then?

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I really don't think people are expecting a babe. Nobody really was happy when the Holly Marie Combs rumors were going around IIRC, myself included (though unlike many I didn't think Jennifer Ehle was the best fit for the part either). I honestly think some (some!) people are just not sold on Fairley in the part, despite her pluses as an actor. I myself have not ever really felt Bean was exactly right for the part of Ned, ever, and I don't think anything ill of him. I think for some people they're honestly just not getting the "This is the character I know and love" (or in this case possibly "hate") feeling. I'm not getting it from Fairley yet (I'm willing to wait and see of course, she's an obscure actress and it's just hard to get to know her), and I know I wasn't feeling it with a babe like Holly Marie Combs or even the (realistically) lovely Jennifer Ehle either.

How on EARTH can anyone say 'this is not the character i know and love'? The series hasn't even AIRED.

My God.

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I dunno, I think plenty of people are seeing things that make them go "OMG that's perfect!!". All the reactions at this point are premature, technically speaking, but we still have the reactions. Like I said, I'm more than willing to wait and see. Even with things I like, like the Jaime casting. I think he looks the part and I feel as confident as can be allowed for at this stage that he has the general vibe, but I really have never seen him act and might end up not liking the handling of Jaime at all. Things can obviously change.

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I'm not talking about you Lady Blackfish (and that mighe be confusing this topic. I'm talking about the general complaints regarding Catelyn) but i'm seeing the same complaints now as I was seeing before they aired Catelyn in any trailer/making of.

Given they cast an unknown, I can't see how anyone could look at a picture of her (because that's all we had at that stage) and say "I think this is a person i'm going to love/love to hate/hate (delete as appropriate)". Jaime is easy because he just has to have a specific arrogance. But Cat is a lot more subtle. Its not so much her attitude (not that I will rule that part out) as her actions that people dislike.

Admittedly, people have something to go on now when they complain about Cat but a lot of the complaints regarding Cat are on her physical beauty. So I stick to my "babe" comment. :)

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Fair enough, Padraig :) I shouldn't presume to speak for anyone besides myself anyway.

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To nitpick even further, Catelyn does not in fact rise five children by herself.

Shes a lady of a large household, a castle in fact, full of septas and servants and teachers and maesters and whatnot.

You would think she goes around scrubbing linen in the creek by the talk shes gettin around here.

My biggest nitpicks would be the horrible hag nagging of Nan, whose apparently impersonating an evil witch hag of some other fairy tale, for some reason.

And that there was no snow when they found the pups. No snow! grr!

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You know, just to bring up a point, (and I'm not upset with the actress playing Cat or anything) in all the artists' drawings we've seen of Catelyn before the show was even announced, she was always depicted as pretty damn super hot. This could have played with people's expectations of what she should look like. I've got the card game, for instance, and she looks like a super model, if I recall.

Just sayin'. *runs*

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She doesn't bother me as Catelyn. Living in the hard north for 18 years will have an affect on beauty. And besides, Catelyn must be a hard woman in the times to come. Fairley's look matches that.

I'm a fan of Ehle, and was sorry she left the production, but they've done a good job of casting quality actors.

We won't really know until the show premieres, but I think Fairley will do a fantastic job.

I'm just glad that the new Dany has turned out so well. The Tudors really set me against Merchant...

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To nitpick even further, Catelyn does not in fact rise five children by herself.

Shes a lady of a large household, a castle in fact, full of septas and servants and teachers and maesters and whatnot.

Lady Blackfish is probably right that we are focusing too much on her life in Winterfell when comparing her to Cersei. (I think it was she that noted we couldn't compare Catelyn with real 40-something women in medieval times). To me, the principle factor of note is that Catelyn is just older than Cersei. And that's fine. she matches Ned better. At the same time, I don't think you can ignore that life in the North is harder than life in the South. And been a mother of 5 is harder than been a mother of 3. And been a queen could be easier still.

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Hmm, when I talked about Catelyn's having a bunch of kids, I was thinking childbirth specifically. I still think the actress looks appropriate for her age, regardless of the discrepancy with Cersei. Sean Bean isn't exactly a 20-something either.

My biggest nitpicks would be the horrible hag nagging of Nan, whose apparently impersonating an evil witch hag of some other fairy tale, for some reason.

This made me laugh, although.... actually that's kinda how I remember Nan.

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Agreed, Old Nan always screamed old, haggard, witch of the woods kind of woman.

My biggest complaint isn't really how the characters look, except for Robert. Mark Addy doesn't really seem like a guy who smashed Rhaegar's chest in on the Trident, and I don't seem alone in thinking it. But he's growing on me.

The complaint is in how some scenes are being depicted. As I've said in other threads, the showdown between the Lannisters and Starks in the street of King's Landing always stuck in my memory. Whenever I hear the name Eddard Stark I think of him cradling Jory's corpse in the middle of the night as rain pours down. That they've moved it into the daytime, with actual fighting on Jaime and Ned's parts irks me. That is not to say it still won't be a good scene, though.

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