SFF author Joel Rosenberg arrested after carryin gun into a police department

[Balefont]

There's a school in Massachusetts that presents a female-oriented tactical firearms course. http://www.aware.org/ (Arming Women Against Rape and Endangerment). I can't vouch for their training, and the gun laws in Mass are a bit wonky, but they'd probably open to a mother/daughter training.

Defense Associates is in Connecticut. Masaad Ayoob is a legit instructor, practically a legend. http://www.DefenseAssociates.com/

Thanks.

I think we'd rather play with the boys, though. ;)

We can stay in the new west for that. Arizona recently eliminated the requirement to obtain a permit in order to carry concealed weapons, as well as legalizing carry in establishments that serve alcohol. We can watch it happen in progress.

:stunned:

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Thanks.

I think we'd rather play with the boys, though. ;)

:stunned:

Everyone freaked out when AZ essentially legalized carrying at Applebees. 22 states actually allow this, but since people don't know that, they freak out every time it gets legalized somewhere new. I have a bet that will come to fruition with Ztemhead at the end of the year. He predicted the apocalypse when AZ passed our new laws. I guess it still has 2 weeks to show up.

[Ixodes]

In Minnesota there is a legal alcohol limit for carrying. This surprised me at first. The level is essentially half the legal driving alcohol limit, which means if you are out for dinner you can have a glass of wine or a beer and still legally carry. If you're over the limit the charges they can file are severe.

When you think about how many places serve alcohol (Applebees, local pizza places, etc) allowing carry into those places makes more sense, especially if there are set guidelines of what is tolerable.

[turinturambar]

Feel free to start a new thread if you like, but I didn't think that the discussion about the level and rate of violence in the old west is off-topic in this thread. Historical evidences have clearly shown that the homicidal rate back then is comparatively higher than today and is I think indicative of the environment created by lax or non-existent regulations on gun rights. Therefore the relaxation of regulations against the carrying of guns in public would lead to higher homicidal rate today.

The wild west was known for its violence because it was wild. There was no legitimate government or concrete law enforcement. It was the freakin' frontier. Wild, unsettled, and ultimately extremely corrupt. There were a a million places to hide with little chance of being caught by the law, combined with ample opportunity for theft...between small unprotected banks and trains carrying cargo across thousands of miles of unsettled land it was a thief's fantasy land. Thus it was a breeding ground for criminals and allowed for ample opportunity for people to get into that particular profession. The old west is simply not comparable to modern day society at all.

And besides, the guys shooting up the place were the bad guys. They were going to shoot up the place no matter what kinds of gun laws were in place. Whenever you hear about the old "shootouts" it's always between the sheriff and a few selected men, and the possee. There aren't any mentions of the average citizen vigilante coming in and raining hell on the posse. And anyways, if it were true and armed citizens did really lead to a significant increase in violence, we would see some evidence of that today. But there is none. States with high gun/carry rates do not have higher rates of violence.

[Jack Sparrow]

Carrying in GA in a place that serves alcohol is now legal, but the person who is carrying can't consume alcohol.

This is probably a result of the scene in 'Tombstone' where Curly Bill shoots the sheriff, though I think Curly Bill was high at the time, not drunk. The law should be that it's illegal to shoot people while being high.

[TerraPrime]

This is probably a result of the scene in 'Tombstone' where Curly Bill shoots the sheriff, though I think Curly Bill was high at the time, not drunk. The law should be that it's illegal to shoot people while being high.

How is being drunk different from being high, given that there are so many kinds of high, from the paranoia-inducing cocaine to the mellowing-out of marijuana to the hyped-up metabolism of speed. Alcohol _is_ a drug. The only difference is that society, by and large, accepts moderate consumption of alcohol.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

In the movie Brocius is depicted as smoking opium. In reality he was drunk, and said that the killing of Fred White was an accident. Wyatt Earp testified on his behalf, and the verdict was accidental death.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

[Ixodes]

When seconds count the police are minutes away.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tormund,

You know I agree with you regarding firearms and firearms ownership. That said who here is saying that justified self defense is wrong or evil?

[kairparavel]

To be frank, no private citizen should ever have to be put through the anguish and trauma of taking another's life to defend themselves. In a perfect world, which this is clearly not, people trained and hopefully better mentally equipped to deal with this are present and working in the best interests of the public. But this isn't a perfect world and private citizens in America are forced into situations like these. This isn't anything to tout about or be proud of or use to rally around gun rights and ownership. It's just a cold hard reality. And it's awful. Just as awful if she had been forced to use a kitchen knife or a golf club or a rock.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

kairparavel,

To be frank, no private citizen should ever have to be put through the anguish and trauma of taking another's life to defend themselves. In a perfect world, which this is clearly not, people trained and hopefully better mentally equipped to deal with this are present and working in the best interests of the public. But this isn't a perfect world and private citizens in America are forced into situations like these. This isn't anything to tout about or be proud of or use to rally around gun rights and ownership. It's just a cold hard reality. And it's awful. Just as awful if she had been forced to use a kitchen knife or a golf club or a rock.

The situations arise in Nation-states other than the US on a regular basis as well.

;)

Also, I believe, Tormund please correct me if I'm wrong, that Tormund only presents this example to show Lev and others that there are situations where the police and other "authorities" allowed to carry firearm cannot get to the victim in time to make a difference in the situation and as such having the ability to defend yourself is a very valuable resource.

[Lord O' Bones]

Also, I believe, Tormund please correct me if I'm wrong, that Tormund only presents this example to show Lev and others that there are situations where the police and other "authorities" allowed to carry firearm cannot get to the victim in time to make a difference in the situation and as such having the ability to defend yourself is a very valuable resource.

Which I agree with completely. Where I do not agree are situations that involve some asshole shooting at a school board or a jackass author wearing a gun to court to make a jackass point.

[Calibandar]

In response to the original post, I will say that is simply ridiculous to be carrying guns openly. Makes no sense to me at all that Rosenberg is carrying a gun openly, and then taking it into a courthouse. If that's not forbidden by federal or state law, it simply should be, and asap.

He's not an officer of the law, just a citizen. I realize I am bringing a European perspective into this, and US ideas about gun property have always baffled me to a large extent. But a normal citizen carrying a gun on the street, openly or concealed, that is just asking for all sorts of shit. You're not a Texas Ranger for fuck's sake.

Regardless of what the incidental American posting in this thread defending gun ownership may say, citizens walking around with guns in public will on the whole cause many more problems than people simply not having access to guns.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Regardless of what the incidental American posting in this thread defending gun ownership may say, citizens walking around with guns in public will on the whole cause many more problems than people simply not having access to guns.

Yeah not really. Florida has nearly 800,000 active CCW permits. Pennsylvania about 700,000, (as of October 2010). A somewhat older statistic shows the percentages of people with permits:

7.45% South Dakota

6.79% Indiana

6.76% Pennsylvania

5.23% Connecticut

5.12% Washington

4.34% Idaho

4.10% Utah

3.86% Oregon

3.45% Tennessee

3.15% Alabama

[Jon Sprunk]

You're not a Texas Ranger for fuck's sake.

Priceless.

For the record, I support our right to bear arms. The ones causing most of the problems are the kind of people who wouldn't obey a law not to own them anyway.

[Werthead]

I think as mentioned earlier, yes, the USA's gun-related death rates and crime problems would virtually disappear overnight if we could wave a magic wand and make all guns vanish overnight. Since we can't, Jon's point is correct: if there ever somehow was a law to outlaw private gun ownership, law-abiding citizens would comply, criminals wouldn't and you'd end up with a massively armed criminal underclass and a major incentive for them not to attack people at random would vanish. The dissolution of private firearms ownership would likely see crime rates rocket as criminals took advantage of the situation.

The problem appears to be something to do with regulation and education, however. As a percentage of the population, other countries equally have large amounts of private gun ownership. The famous comparison is that Canada actually has a higher percentage of gun ownership, a more stringent regulation policy and a lower number of gun-related deaths as compared to the United States. Since banning private gun ownership in the USA is impractical, strengthening control regulations and ensuring that people are responsible and trained enough to use firearms would seem to be a viable course of action (as would car ownership, before someone makes the comparison; that is also true here in the UK where there are many people driving who frankly shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a motor vehicle).