Syrio Forel - the neverending fight

[Rakka]

However snidely, this implies that you are vastly more knowledgeable than I in regard to swordfights.

Do you want to claim I'm not?

Given (canon) a room littered with five dead and dying guardsmen, their blood, their weapons, and bits of their armor;

given Trant wearing full plate armor, with his visor down;

given Syrio's clearly displayed speed and maneuverability in his slaughter of said five guardsmen, his lack of encumbrance and his unobstructed vision;

explain one thing: why is it NOT POSSIBLE, in your expert opinion, that Syrio could have danced around Meryn Trant in that room, remaining out of his effective sword range, for a substantial period of time?

It's not fully impossible, but it's very unlikely. When Trant cuts through Syrio's stick he gains advantage, and the thing to do there is to press your advantage, not let the other fighter retreat and regroup. Trant can step more or less straight ahead with very little regard to stumbling, as he can just slide his foot forward and thus avoid any sudden obstacles. Trant has no need to stay in one spot, so he can keep stepping forward and swinging his sword at Syrio, who at this point has no other halfway safe choise but to keep on retreating - backwards, which mean he has to be more careful of what's in the direction of the movement. His mobility is hindered by the dead guards and puddles of blood as he's more likely to trip because of them than Trant. If the fight moves away, he has much better footing and can use his mobility freely.

But where does that go? Trant's already been humiliated for letting Arya get away. He's not likely to let Syrio walk off and explain that not only he failed to capture a nine-year old girl, he was also outfought by a old geezer of a dancing teacher. I really can't see either of them retreating - Syrio has said he won't run, and I don't think Trant would be keen to let him go either. Also, if Trant raported Syrio got away too, wouldn't you expect a lot more scathing scorn from Cersei? As it is her annoyance seems mostly directed at Syrio "wretched dancing master interfered", not Trant "that moron let a dancing master win him".

If Syrio did lead Trant off to other end of the room, sprint to the dead guards and get his hands on a real weapon, even one he wasn't that good with, I think Trant would be dead or seriously injured, as it would indeed give advantage to Syrio. Trant would be more tired of the two, angry, and likely to make a mistake that allowed Syrio to press his advantage. Syrio already showed he has no problem killing people who're no longer capable of fighting back, I don't see how Trant would survive.

Of course there may have been reinforcements who came to see what takes so long who saved Trant's ass, but it'd take the argument back to "would he run from a numerically superior enemy/ a fight he can't win" and also Cersei's lack of serious scorn at Trant, and lack of hunt for Syrio. Tyrion at least would be smart enough to look at it further, as a dangerous Stark ally letting flit about would hardly be something he'd pass over as insignificant. (See Tyrek Lannister, whose continued absence is often mentioned. But nobody spares a thought at the most dangerous escaped Stark ally?)

[Salome the Persian Witch]

As silly as I meant to be by calling this conundrum "Schrödinger's Forel", I love that we truly are in a Schrödinger's cat type superposition when it comes to this particular situation. The reality is, until we open up the box, we're not going to know whether the cat is dead or not - and IMHO GRRM has left enough evidence for us to argue passionately either way!

So, to pick up on the Star Wars theme mentioned above, do I want to believe that Syrio is this extraordinarily wonderful Yoda type who can get out of anything based on his super fabulousness, or do I want to believe he's Obi Wan Kenobi who sacrifices himself for the good of his pupil based on his super fabulousness? Either way, I am personally fully satisfied in the character's super fabulousness!

Soooo, despite a preponderance of the evidence either way (humbly, I have not been swayed one way or the other based on these threads to date) until GRRM opens that box, I'm just going to hold onto the hope that Syrio is alive - 'cuz that's what makes me feel the happiest! :P

:fencing:

[TrueMetis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3qqfrL8Frk&feature=related

You might want to watch the first part of that video. Sure he's not entirely used to the armour, but he is reasonably fit, and he only lasted 2 minutes and 16 seconds. Even without armour, take a look at boxers who aren't wearing armour at all and exert themselves to the utmost and are completely exhausted when they go for the full 12 rounds and that's with resting a minute in between each round. Even during the 6th round, they're usually quite tired.

A few things here, I have some very limited knowledge of sword fighting having done a tiny bit reenactment. The guys I fought with on the other hand had been doing it for years. What I learned is that the muscles you use is sword fitting are completely different from the muscles you use in regular use and most sports or weight lifting. So "reasonably fit" means nothing if he hasn't been training with swords for months. Now he may well have but I doubt it considering the guys I fought with, who were all over 40, could keep it up for an hour with few breaks in between. These guys also don't train close to as much as a knight would. Take from that what you will.

[Manakhkubar]

As silly as I meant to be by calling this conundrum "Schrödinger's Forel", I love that we truly are in a Schrödinger's cat type superposition when it comes to this particular situation. The reality is, until we open up the box, we're not going to know whether the cat is dead or not - and IMHO GRRM has left enough evidence for us to argue passionately either way!

More precisely, he left us with pretty much no evidence at all. Which seems odd, because usually Martin is not shy about hints towards an important character. People meet them all the time, ask about them. With Syrio, nothing at all, except that one reference of his interference. It really seems that nobody including Martin cares about Syrio. To me, that is strong evidence that Martin himself doesn't think of Syrio as an important character, but a simple plot device. Useful, with a nice "exit" scene, but not worth spending more precious author time on him to even figure out if he should be dead or not.

[AvengingAryaFan]

explain one thing: why is it NOT POSSIBLE, in your expert opinion, that Syrio could have danced around Meryn Trant in that room, remaining out of his effective sword range, for a substantial period of time?

Ideally, you would explain this impossibility at each of three distinct junctures: as of the beginning of the Trant/Syrio fight, when Syrio still had his whole stick; after Syrio has rapped his stick off Trants helm, gauntlet and gorget, when he likewise had his full stick; and after Trant has sheared Syrio's stick. The first two junctures are the most relevant, as they constitute decision points for Syrio prior to our loss of POV description.

Not possible? Not possible. :rolleyes: ;)

But not reasonable...

So you contend. Thank you for your efforts in this regard, truly. But of course I'm going to challenge your contentions.

Your post putatively demonstrates a single point: that in your expert opinion it's not possible for Syrio to dance around Trant for a while without getting in sword range. Instead, of course, you argue it's possible but unreasonable - a different point. But if it's possible, as you now acknowledge, then it is an option for Syrio. EB, however, has been annoying me by repetitively contending that Syrio has no such option. Your agreement that it is possible means EB is wrong, and the snide comment "Isn't it cute ... YOU don't listen to his arguments" is therefore misplaced on the merits (besides being gratuitously rude). Since you've already conceded these points, which were, after all, the genesis of my challenge, I'm satisfied.

Of course I also disagree with your alternative contention that in your expert opinion it is unreasonable for Syrio to dance away from Trant. I don't think you actually demonstrate that contention either; we'll see. However, you present many of the arguments set forth by the "Syrio must be dead" camp. I'm happy to address your arguments, which are at least set forth in a civil manner.

One caveat: I find it useful to remind you at several points that you are giving expert opinion; I'm not mocking you, but defending myself against people who have been claiming their opinions are better than mine because they're experts. Of course, the reminders are most prominent when I think the stated opinion is weakest, but when else would I do it? Really, I appreciate your civility.

First, your three junctures. I don't agree that those are the decision points. I think only the first is a decision point (#1).

#1: Is this your expert opinion? Because to me, it seems that for an expert, every instant of a fight with live weapons is a decision point. Does some expert fighter care to disagree? The ones I pointed out are merely particularly interesting decision points.

At that stage, Syrio chooses to fight, because a) he feels a need to protect Arya, and b ) it is required (#2) of him by his lifestyle (#3) and honour code (#4).

#2 , #3, #4: What is "required" of Syrio is unknown, so this is unsupported conjecture. The idea that he is obligated to certain behavior by his lifestyle and honor code is doubly unsupported: not only do you NOT know his lifestyle and honor code (he is different from and superior to the vast majority of bravos) you DO know that he has successfully avoided losing a fight to the death for quite a long time. His longevity as a fighter strongly suggests that his lifestyle does NOT include, and his honor does NOT require, arbitrarily engaging in hopeless fights. You would have him be a robot programmed to blindly follow an "ideal" of bravo behavior that has textual support only in the behavior of some bravo wannabes. You insist he is unable to evaluate the present circumstances with intelligence and freewill. You describe Syrio as a mockery of a bravo, rather than the paragon that he is. What we know of his wit and intelligence in regard to fighting, and of his success and longevity, requires that he is in fact extremely intelligent and adaptable, and does NOT engage in hopeless fights to the death.

I don't think survival or lack or survival actually enters his decision making process (#5). Not at this or at any time (#6). He is a Bravo, was First Sword, Does Not Run etc etc.

#5, #6 Is this your expert opinion - that survival or lack of survival never enters his decision making process? Because we can then conclude with confidence that Syrio has simply been lucky these many years that he never happened to engage in a fight he couldn't win - because he'd have waded in regardless of the value of the fight compared to the chances of survival. It really is not flattering to Syrio Forel to logically require that he has simply been lucky all these years; and it is also contrary to the impression we are given that he has been successful because of his perceptiveness and blade skills, not because of luck.

So he chooses to fight, and having chosen, will not back down until the fight is done (#7). Not only to give Arya his best in order to boost her chances for escape back to her father, but also because that is who he is (#8).

#7 is unsupported conjecture, and contrary to his longevity. I might grant that if the Syrio I envision - intelligent, adaptable and wise as well as extraordinarily skilled - has chosen to enter a fight then he will not back down, except that you're talking about a Syrio who gets into fights without ever considering the chances of survival, then continuing said fights regardless. If he's always been this way, he could not have survived for decades as a fighter, but by the most extraordinary luck.

What do you mean by "will not back down"? is dancing away from Trant "backing down"? Because if so, then this unsupported conjecture is, in fact, an assumption of the very conclusion you set out to prove (that it's unreasonable for Syrio to dance around Trant).

#8 Stating that "he will not back down because that's who he is" is merely repeating the same unsupported conjecture in reliance on itself: a man does what a man does. If you hadn't drawn such a robotic Syrio, unable to consider survival, unable to make decisions, uncontrollably obligated to follow the stupid "customs" of the lowest bravos as deduced by readers ( not Martin), I might agree that Syrio doesn't back down. But the Syrio you describe becomes an absurdity, a parody, incapable of thinking and deciding and choosing. Such a Syrio would not be a survivor - either now, as you claim, but more importantly, not for the last decades. But that conclusion contradicts the canon that he HAS survived for ~decades.

As for giving Arya his best, the only thing Syrio can do for Arya is give her a head start; and he can do that at least one way without losing his life. Given that once he loses his life he can't do anything for Arya, or for anyone else, why, again, would he not choose the option that allows him to live? (My answer is that Syrio does not think Trant has much chance of killing him, but that's incompatible with your thesis.)

The second juncture is not a decision point because Syrio should have already known that he couldn't seriously hurt Trant with that sort of attack. It was nothing more than a goading attack - "look, I'm so much better than you that I can hit you at will. So much better in fact that you need your full attention on me, not the escaping girl..." (and to make him angry, because angry people make more mistakes) (#9).

I like your theory about it being a goading attack. I'm relieved we can agree on something. Though it's conjecture that's only weakly supported: Syrio's expertise favors having been pretty sure he couldn't hurt Trant, but he could additionally or alternatively have been testing to see if he could find a weakness. #9 However, regardless of the purpose of the stick attack, Syrio still has a decision to make thereafter, based on the results of that attack (and, indeed, at each change in the posture of the fight).

The third juncture is not a decision point (#10) simply because the fight is already committed, in close, and Arya is not away safely yet. He can't simply dance away endlessly because that will free Trant (#11) to go after Arya, and she hasn't even left the room yet! Furthermore, Syrio Does Not Run. Having lost his weapon, dancing away is effectively running from the fight (#12) - if not immediately, then as soon as Trant stops going after him.

#10 So your expert opinion is that since he was in close, it was now impossible for him to get farther away? Can you tell me where Trant's sword went after it sheared the stick? I think we can be pretty sure it wasn't into Syrio, can't we ... because Arya wouldn't fail to register (and thus report to the reader) that fact.

#11 I didn't say endlessly. Can he dance away until Trant seeks to disengage? Because if Trant disengages, there's nothing to stop Forel from picking up a real sword and chasing him. Or knocking him down; or whatever.

#12 So you are saying that it is unreasonable for Syrio to dance around Trant because that is effectively running from the fight. But it isn't; dancing isn't running, it's seeking tactical advantage - of which there's plenty around. And it is certainly incorrect to say that if Trant disengages then Syrio is running. That's just backwards. Mind you, if Trant went after Arya too fast I expect Syrio would grab a sword and delay him more, but in any event it's not a question of Syrio running from the fight. I'm sorry if you're happy with these weak arguments, which seems to be all you have to support the contention you are expertly proving.

As for the 'littered' room - that should, if anything, hinder the combatant relying on mobility more than the combatant relying on brute force (#13). In general, but we don't know for specifics in this fight. If anything, it is (IMO) an argument against Syrio surviving, given he is already at close range in the midst of the mess, but we don't know, so we shouldn't count on it either way.

#13 So in your expert opinion, the more burdened a man is, and the more obstructed his vision, the relatively easier it is for him to maneuver around an irregularly cluttered room? And that conversely, the less burdened a man is, and the less obstructed his vision, the harder it is for him to maneuver around said room? Or perhaps you think that it's disadvantageous to be more maneuverable if you're trying to dance around your opponent? Just wondering. We could have a "battle of the experts", because I think I could find some to disagree with you.

Your argument is supposed to be that it's unreasonable for Syrio to dance away from Trant; now you seem to be saying that Syrio's superior mobility is a disadvantage at close range, or something ... I think you've kinda lost the thread here.

I'll repeat my contention: it's entirely plausible for Syrio to dance around Trant if Trant is attacking him; Syrio would be aided in such an effort by the fact that it is relatively more difficult for a fully armored, vision-impaired man to maneuver around a room cluttered with irregular obstacles than it is for a fast and unencumbered man to maneuver around said room; and maneuverability is rather the point of dancing around somebody while avoiding allowing them to successfully hit you.

Trant wearing full plate, with visor down, might make a difference in the long run, or hamper him if he wasn't already at close range. But we have already seen that Trant didn't suffer any major ill effects from the fight, so unless Syrio effectively Ran From The Fight, it doesn't make any negative difference to Trant(#14). He is already close, everybody's mobility is restricted, and Syrio cannot flee the fight without repudiating everything he is. We have also already seen that Trant isn't as immobile as might be thought (we isn't described as clanking around, or lumbering awkwarding into the room etc). This isn't necessarily late 15th C German plate with winching onto horseback etc. This is Trant's normal 'working' armour and he doesn't display noticeable mobility disadvantages in everyday scenes. Yes, its heavy, and yes, he is 'slow for a knight' (though that sound more like a personal jibe than a comment on how immobile he is), but that doesn't make him particularly useless in a fight.

#14 You're saying that wearing armor didn't wear Trant out because he survived? That's quite off topic; we know Syrio did NOT choose to dance around Trant, at least while Arya was watching, but instead chose to engage rather closely. This whole argument is about a hypothetical, which I repeat again: Syrio had at least one very reasonable alternative course of action, which he might have pursued if he thought Trant was a serious danger to him: he could have danced around him, out of reach until Trant tried to disengage.

And anyway, Trant would likely have survived had Syrio taken the more conservative "wear them down" option; Trant would have eventually disengaged - it's just another route to my overall contention that it is probable that Trant broke off the fight, not Syrio.

Syrio's speed and unrestricted movement etc was shown mostly early in the fight, and especially with the element of surprise and with an uncluttered surface to work with. He has lost, or at least reduced, both of those advantages.

I grant the element of surprise, though it seems Trant still couldn't believe Syrio was really that good ("Bloody oafs"). As for the cluttered floor: if Syrio is trying to avoid and/or trip Trant, then those obstacles and restrictions on movement are just what he needs, because they amplify the maneuverability difference between him and Trant. I believe your expert opinion is still to the contrary on this point; if you get enough support I'll be forced to resort to a contradictory expert to contest your opinion(s). (For some strange reason I don't think the "Syrio is almost certainly dead" crowd would take my word for a contention that the sky is blue on a cloudless day.)

Syrio is also an old (relatively) man. In general, that means that his stamina, or conditioning, will reduce, probably faster than his outright speed and agility. So even unarmoured and in a relatively short fight, he is more likely to tire quickly, and make mistakes or miscalculations that he wouldn't normally (like getting his training sword destroyed). We don't know how much he is affected by age, so we can't be sure how, or if at all, this will affect this fight, but it is another unknown to throw into the possibilities mix, and it can't be good for him, even if it is not necessarily bad.

Meh. Trant is described as having "baggy eyes". I can't say I've NEVER seen baggy eyes on a young man, but it's rare, so I believe this suggests Trant is fairly old too. I'll agree with you if you're saying that these relatively imponderable issues probably don't push the conclusion either direction.

I appreciate your civility.

I think you forgot you were supposed to be demonstrating that Syrio had no option of dancing around Trant - that it was impossible, or, as you have it, unreasonable. The only support you ended up providing for that contention was "it's unreasonable for Syrio to dance around Trant because that's effectively running from the fight" (and Syrio doesn't run). But there's no question but that he danced, and he's a water dancer, so he certainly didn't say he wouldn't dance. You also said that if Trant disengages then that means Syrio is running; I trust you'll withdraw that, but one can never be sure.

Of course, if a cluttered floor truly is a terrible burden on Syrio but no problem for Trant, then it would certainly be more difficult for Syrio to dance around him on said floor. But I think you need to reconsider the physics of this contention.

ETA weakness

[AvengingAryaFan]

It's not fully impossible, but it's very unlikely. When Trant cuts through Syrio's stick he gains advantage, and the thing to do there is to press your advantage, not let the other fighter retreat and regroup. Trant can step more or less straight ahead with very little regard to stumbling, as he can just slide his foot forward and thus avoid any sudden obstacles.

OK, this is your expert opinion. Trant can step more or less straight ahead with very little regard to stumbling, despite five guardsmen, their blood, and their weapons being strewn about the floor. Seems wrong to me, but I'll cheerfully let it stand, unless and until I find expert rebuttal.

Trant has no need to stay in one spot, so he can keep stepping forward and swinging his sword at Syrio, who at this point has no other halfway safe choise but to keep on retreating - backwards, which mean he has to be more careful of what's in the direction of the movement. His mobility is hindered by the dead guards and puddles of blood as he's more likely to trip because of them than Trant. If the fight moves away, he has much better footing and can use his mobility freely.

So your expert opinion is that Syrio cannot circle around Trant? And that Syrio, with unimpaired vision, has difficulty maneuvering around and over the dead guardsmen but Trant, looking through a narrow visor, is not? I appreciate your point that Trant is going more forward, a direction in which it's relatively easier for him to see, but I'd expect Forel to force him to change direction as much as possible. Again, though, I cheerfully leave this until I can get expert rebuttal.

But where does that go? Trant's already been humiliated for letting Arya get away. He's not likely to let Syrio walk off and explain that not only he failed to capture a nine-year old girl, he was also outfought by a old geezer of a dancing teacher. I really can't see either of them retreating - Syrio has said he won't run, and I don't think Trant would be keen to let him go either. Also, if Trant raported Syrio got away too, wouldn't you expect a lot more scathing scorn from Cersei? As it is her annoyance seems mostly directed at Syrio "wretched dancing master interfered", not Trant "that moron let a dancing master win him".

Interestingly, we seem to be in violent agreement here. Trant's humiliation at failing to capture Arya is a given. That humiliation is minimized if Trant says no more to Cersei than "Her damned dancing master interfered and Arya got away." And after all, Trant wasn't sent after the dancing master; why would he report not killing him, when bringing it up could only cause more scathing scorn, as you point out?

Of course, it wouldn't be especially embarrassing if he could report having killed Syrio - and then he could admit the guardsmen's deaths, too, which would even make him look tougher. Unfortunately, there's no hint suggesting that Trant claimed killing Syrio, or even that he reported Syrio killed the guardsmen. It's certainly possible, as has been discussed, but the better-supported conclusion is that Cersei told Tyrion just about what Trant told her.

Worse, if Trant didn't report killing Forel then he apparently had no interest in bragging about that particular kill. And if he had no interest in bragging about it, what exactly would be the point of pursuing Syrio when Trant's real task, capturing Arya, would become progressively less likely as a consequence?

If Syrio did lead Trant off to other end of the room, sprint to the dead guards and get his hands on a real weapon, even one he wasn't that good with, I think Trant would be dead or seriously injured, as it would indeed give advantage to Syrio. Trant would be more tired of the two, angry, and likely to make a mistake that allowed Syrio to press his advantage. Syrio already showed he has no problem killing people who're no longer capable of fighting back, I don't see how Trant would survive.

More violent agreement, except I can't forget that spotlight description of Trant's full armor, right down to lobstered gauntlets, and I guess I've been convinced that it's pretty tough to get through such armor, even with a real sword. Bronn beat Vardis Egen, but not easily, mainly because he had trouble getting through his armor. So it seems to me that Trant would have many opportunities to get away.

I certainly agree (not that my opinion matters) that Trant would be in serious jeopardy if Syrio skittered away and picked up a real weapon. And Trant would probably realize his jeopardy at some point. So if he got tripped and knocked down, I think he'd jump up as fast as his old bones would allow and take off on his urgent job of capturing Arya, before Forel had time to pick up a sword and mount a serious attack. (If Forel had gotten a real sword before Trant got back to his feet, then I agree Forel would likely have killed him as you said - no compunction about killing the disadvantaged.) Once Trant leaves, Forel can't really risk following him through the RK because he might run into serious reinforcements.

Of course there may have been reinforcements who came to see what takes so long who saved Trant's ass, but it'd take the argument back to "would he run from a numerically superior enemy/ a fight he can't win" and also Cersei's lack of serious scorn at Trant, and lack of hunt for Syrio. Tyrion at least would be smart enough to look at it further, as a dangerous Stark ally letting flit about would hardly be something he'd pass over as insignificant. (See Tyrek Lannister, whose continued absence is often mentioned. But nobody spares a thought at the most dangerous escaped Stark ally?)

Well, from their reference only to "dancing master", it doesn't seem that the Lannisters realized the danger Syrio posed. And if Trant kept the information to himself to avoid embarrassment, they'd never find out. Forel would remain anonymous, improving the odds of escaping without raising an alarm. Here's an ironic possibility: Trant might thereby have actually helped save Syrio.

Something's wrong with this picture; how can we be in so much agreement?

[AvengingAryaFan]

More precisely, he left us with pretty much no evidence at all. Which seems odd, because usually Martin is not shy about hints towards an important character. People meet them all the time, ask about them. With Syrio, nothing at all, except that one reference of his interference. It really seems that nobody including Martin cares about Syrio. To me, that is strong evidence that Martin himself doesn't think of Syrio as an important character, but a simple plot device. Useful, with a nice "exit" scene, but not worth spending more precious author time on him to even figure out if he should be dead or not.

A fair point, except it raises the question: why did Martin get so close to showing Forel's death (if we assume SyrioMustBeDead), and then suddenly veer off from the gore he could have exposed Arya to even before the stable boy? The Death Of Obiwan In Technicolor! As you say, George doesn't usually shy away from gore, but seems to revel in it.

EB has said that it would endanger Arya; but how would a fully armored knight successfully chase a little girl through kitchens and stuff? So that doesn't seem to justify it.

Martin certainly gives up characters he has made appealing, but he extracts some reader angst for it, the more the better. Why leave Syrio in the Schrodinger cat box?

[Manakhkubar]

Martin certainly gives up characters he has made appealing, but he extracts some reader angst for it, the more the better. Why leave Syrio in the Schrodinger cat box?

Because Martin doesn't care about Syria enough to show his death. Or even mention his death. Or maybe even think about if Syrio is dead or not*. It's all about Arya and why she alone escapes. Why trying to write a rather difficult and less convincing scene where Arya actually witnesses Syrios death? To Arya, Syrio is dead flesh when she leaves.

_If_ Syrio would be more than a one-time-tool to "launch" the next Arya "stage", Martin would have had him included in the post-coup dialogs. The complete lack of "Syrio" thus proves Martin's "indifferent ignorance". Of course, this meta argument can be completely wrong and Martin might have decided to create a unique way of character-to-plot usage only for Syrio by handling him exactly like any other marginal figure. But then I'd expect Syrio to be at least R'hllor himself to explain that extreme anomaly.

*) We, as readers, usually think that the author, especially GRRM, has a crystal clear view on the whole plot and each character. That he knows exactly what a character did at a certain point. Now I don't know GRRM, but I know enough writers to know that this is completely wrong. Most writers "know" hardly much more than they actually write. Simply because it is not manageable to do that.

[schpat]

I wonder if the ppl who think SF may still be alive will change their minds if the TV show shows an on screen death for him. After all the TV show will not be hindered by POV problems.

Or will they just argue that it's not cannon.

Also what will it imply if the TV show also has an off screen "death"? will it just add fuel to the SF lives fire?

[Errant Bard]

On the 'realism' point, I have (for interest's sake) argued the realism of the fight based on my re-enactment experience, yes. However, AAF is completely correct about one thing - it doesn't matter. GRRM is not an expert, and is free to take liberties even with what he does know about fighting, for dramatic effect. Authors do.

(By the same token, of course, this means that the notion that any one fight is a deliberate clue to the outcome of another is unsustainable. Each fight, as I said in the last thread, comes out as the author decides.)

Indeed, this is a work of fiction, so everything is possible and any fight will only go the way the author want it to go.

However, in the case of an open-ended scene where the author will not give us any more hints, I think that verisimilitude has to be taken into account to determine the likehood of a conclusion or another.

I wonder if the ppl who think SF may still be alive will change their minds if the TV show shows an on screen death for him. After all the TV show will not be hindered by POV problems.

But it's NOT a "problem", it's narrative trick that would work equally well in TV format. It's even better suited for TV, where the camera just has to follow Arya as she realizes Syrio is doomed.

[Rakka]

It's easier to step forward than backwards. And without anything to parry with that would let you take control of the other's sword it's safer to just try to stay out of the reach, not try something fancy and step aside, as it's still easy to guide the sword to someone's legs if they just move to the side and not really out of reach. It's less risky to try to take the fight to a ground where you don't need to mind the dead bodies, than circling just out of reach (may be treacherous) hoping you won't trip on something mid-step. Going close enough to unbalance Trant without a weapon would be downright stupid, which is why I don't think Syrio would have done it.

Getting a weapon and knocking Trant down would put the advantage so heavily on Syrio I don't think Trant would have had much chance without an outside interference, which I also don't think to be likely. And if it happened that Trant had to be saved from a dancing teacher he'd be put to guard Joffrey's latrine in case someone tried to climb in from the chute. :P

I really can't see it playing out how Trant would be NOT asked if he at least managed to kill the dancing teacher who "interfered". He might have lied, but the lack of a civilian body among the goldcloaks would be bit of a giveaway. Someone (Tyrion, as he's the brains of Joffrey's government) would know, there would be a chase. There have been four books to drop hints for Syrio's survival, as there are POVs in Red Keep to give them through. But there are none.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Because Martin doesn't care about Syria enough to show his death. Or even mention his death. Or maybe even think about if Syrio is dead or not*. It's all about Arya and why she alone escapes. Why trying to write a rather difficult and less convincing scene where Arya actually witnesses Syrios death? To Arya, Syrio is dead flesh when she leaves.

_If_ Syrio would be more than a one-time-tool to "launch" the next Arya "stage", Martin would have had him included in the post-coup dialogs. The complete lack of "Syrio" thus proves Martin's "indifferent ignorance". Of course, this meta argument can be completely wrong and Martin might have decided to create a unique way of character-to-plot usage only for Syrio by handling him exactly like any other marginal figure. But then I'd expect Syrio to be at least R'hllor himself to explain that extreme anomaly.

*) We, as readers, usually think that the author, especially GRRM, has a crystal clear view on the whole plot and each character. That he knows exactly what a character did at a certain point. Now I don't know GRRM, but I know enough writers to know that this is completely wrong. Most writers "know" hardly much more than they actually write. Simply because it is not manageable to do that.

Well, at least you're not the only one to suggest that MartinDoesn'tCareAboutSyrio, OR that MartinDoesn'tKnowWhatHappenedToSyrio.

Some people, however, wonder why Martin wouldn't show gore if he didn't care about Syrio - because that would have been a real send-off for Arya. Or was gore only OK for Arya's character arc later, when she killed the stable boy, or when her father's head was cut off, and not when she last saw Syrio? Perhaps it's crucial that she think only that Syrio is probably dead, rather than know for certain that he is dead. I can't see it messing up her development except the same way the canonical events mess it up, but doubtless some will.

If there was no reason NOT to show gore, and Syrio was unwanted as even a future option, then some wonder why Martin crafted a scene with so much "cliffhangeriness", including a spectacular absence of resolution. Your explanation that MartinDoesn'tKnow is probably not widely shared by fans of Martin, who like him precisely because his writing is so expert. But it's always possible, and it would sure explain a lot! Perhaps he also doesn't know if Benjen died or not, or Tyrek Lannister, or whether Loras is really as injured as Cersei has been told, or where Rickon is, or ... - maybe Martin's simply bumbling along hoping it all turns out OK in the end, just like the rest of us.

I frankly admit I believe Martin is far more thorough and competent than that; and that the cliffhangeriness of some scenes is not accidental, but quite intentional. As usual, I look to the text (a futile effort if Martin is guessing, of course) for examples of deaths implied but then "rescinded". I would find not only that the Bran/Rickon deaths weren't, but also, looking back, I'd see quite a number of hints (possibly set forth for the wary reader?? d'you suppose!) suggesting there was trickery involved on Theon's part, even before we knew exactly what the trickery was, or what happened to Bran/Rickon. And I'd find that hints have been provided that Sandor isn't dead, as seemed quite certain to many, even before Martin has actually revealed his survival. I dunno, maybe he's just been lucky so far (like Syrio!), but I certainly wouldn't bet against Martin knowing what he's doing.

I might, however, take a bet against his actually getting it done ...

[Pallantides]

A few things here, I have some very limited knowledge of sword fighting having done a tiny bit reenactment. The guys I fought with on the other hand had been doing it for years. What I learned is that the muscles you use is sword fitting are completely different from the muscles you use in regular use and most sports or weight lifting. So "reasonably fit" means nothing if he hasn't been training with swords for months. Now he may well have but I doubt it considering the guys I fought with, who were all over 40, could keep it up for an hour with few breaks in between. These guys also don't train close to as much as a knight would. Take from that what you will.

But are they wearing the full kit? Plate, chainmaille, and gambeson, plus weapons. I do re-enactment myself, and I'm not exactly the most physically fit person, however I'm able to go for an hour or more as well, if I'm only wearing the plate and some light padding underneath. With the full kit that a knight wears however, the length of time that I can fight goes down considerably. Even then, I'm not even going full on in fighting, being that I don't want to overly exert myself and I'm not fighting for my life (which I think would help someone to get past the exhaustion they would feel seeing as adrenaline would be kicking in).

It also doesn't explain how boxers who for the most part are relatively naked in regards to protection (apart from low blow and kidney protectors) come out exhausted after only fighting for around thirty six minutes, including rests in between.

[TrueMetis]

But are they wearing the full kit? Plate, chainmaille, and gambeson, plus weapons. I do re-enactment myself, and I'm not exactly the most physically fit person, however I'm able to go for an hour or more as well, if I'm only wearing the plate and some light padding underneath. With the full kit that a knight wears however, the length of time that I can fight goes down considerably. Even then, I'm not even going full on in fighting, being that I don't want to overly exert myself and I'm not fighting for my life (which I think would help someone to get past the exhaustion they would feel seeing as adrenaline would be kicking in).

It also doesn't explain how boxers who for the most part are relatively naked in regards to protection (apart from low blow and kidney protectors) come out exhausted after only fighting for around thirty six minutes, including rests in between.

Oh right I forgot to mention that, partial protection, arms, chest, helmet, upper legs, kidneys, and some really heavy shields. All together about 20-25 pounds so about half of what full plate would weight IIRC.

As for boxers at a guess maybe they don't focus much on endurance? I have a couple of friends who box so I'll talk to them and get back to you on this one. (If I remember)

[Headless Ned]

Corbon...you just won my vote for being the PtwP. Sound reasoning. AAF please respond to Corbon. I think your discussion resides wit him.

my thoughts? forget about trants sword....all he WOULD have to do is bodily reach syrio and just plow him over. Fall on him, break his hip.

P.S. my iPhone wants to correct Syrio into syrup. that alone shows him as dead.

[Whitering]

I think Syrio is an example of the Boba Fet syndrome. GRRM very likely underestimated the fervor of the reading public with regards to this very minor character who figured into no more than 10 or 15 pages in a much longer book.

He's dead, but was so minor GRRM didn't feel the need to graphically verify it on the page. He likely learned his lesson by the time Clash came out.

[schpat]

I think Syrio is an example of the Boba Fet syndrome. GRRM very likely underestimated the fervor of the reading public with regards to this very minor character who figured into no more than 10 or 15 pages in a much longer book.

He's dead, but was so minor GRRM didn't feel the need to graphically verify it on the page. He likely learned his lesson by the time Clash came out.

Yeah, you "hear" SF a lot through Arya's POV, but how many times is he actually on screen, twice? maybe three times?

[AvengingAryaFan]

It's easier to step forward than backwards. And without anything to parry with that would let you take control of the other's sword it's safer to just try to stay out of the reach, not try something fancy and step aside, as it's still easy to guide the sword to someone's legs if they just move to the side and not really out of reach. It's less risky to try to take the fight to a ground where you don't need to mind the dead bodies, than circling just out of reach (may be treacherous) hoping you won't trip on something mid-step. Going close enough to unbalance Trant without a weapon would be downright stupid, which is why I don't think Syrio would have done it.

Getting a weapon and knocking Trant down would put the advantage so heavily on Syrio I don't think Trant would have had much chance without an outside interference, which I also don't think to be likely. And if it happened that Trant had to be saved from a dancing teacher he'd be put to guard Joffrey's latrine in case someone tried to climb in from the chute. :P

So your expert opinion is that though Syrio got close to the five guardsmen concurrently, and unbalanced some of them, he is stupid to believe he can get close to Meryn Trant yet avoid the sword of Meryn Trant alone? And that, at the same time, the reason Trant must have killed Syrio is because if Syrio picked up a real weapon he'd be such a threat to Trant that if Syrio lived then Trant would without question be dead - that Trant could not have hoped to retreat from Syrio once Syrio got a real sword?

These are fascinating expert opinions - I would never have guessed. No use offering my own humble opinion, so I'll just accept that as your opinion until such time as a more expert person than yourself disagrees with you (at which time you would no doubt gracefully reverse your opinion, in accordance with your certainty that a superior claim of expertise proves the opinion to be correct ...).

I really can't see it playing out how Trant would be NOT asked if he at least managed to kill the dancing teacher who "interfered". He might have lied, but the lack of a civilian body among the goldcloaks would be bit of a giveaway. Someone (Tyrion, as he's the brains of Joffrey's government) would know, there would be a chase. There have been four books to drop hints for Syrio's survival, as there are POVs in Red Keep to give them through. But there are none.

Not goldcloaks, red cloaks - Lannister guardsmen, not the ill-trained City Guard.

You're sure Cersei would have asked if Trant killed the dancing master, rather than focusing on why Trant failed to pursue Arya? Perhaps the conversation went something like this:

Cersei: where have you put Arya Stark, Ser Meryn?

Meryn: Erm, I regret to say that I couldn't find her.

Cersei: I distinctly remember sending you off to her dancing class with no uncertain orders to take her to a secure place, and to take plenty of guardsmen as well, to deal with any trouble. What happened?

Meryn: Her dancing master interfered, allowing Arya to escape out a back door, and now nobody can find her.

Cersei: Drat, she's an important hostage to help control her relatives. This is very annoying. Well, Arya may well be dead - a great many people died today. Speaking of which, it will make me feel better to know the impudent fellow was killed for his interference, even though it won't help us find Arya.

Meryn: (looks uncomfortable)

Cersei: You DID kill him, didn't you?

choose your preferred response:

Meryn: erm, not exactly, your grace.

_ OR _: Of course! He sent Arya away, so I began fighting him. After all, he had just singlehandedly killed five of your guardsmen with a stick before I could confront him!

Cersei: Wait, did I hear you say you allowed Arya to run away while you fought with her dancing master? And that he killed five of our guardsmen? Gods, Ser Meryn, why did you not pursue Arya?

Meryn: Well, the dancing master was hitting me with his stick, you see, and I thought it would please you equally well whether I killed the dancing master or captured Arya ...

Cersei: I see that you are unbelievably incompetent! DAMN that service-for-life rule - I've half a mind to send you off after Ser Barristan!

Arya was a sufficiently important hostage that Cersei felt it was necessary to expressly lie in public to claim that she was in custody. Given Arya's importance to Cersei, I guess I have to admit that even if Trant won (killing Syrio), such killing is so beside the point of what Cersei wanted - Arya in custody - that it would be awkward for Trant to explain that he fought with Syrio rather than immediately pursuing Arya. That awkwardness could explain Trant's silence about killing Syrio; but it also highlights the importance of Trant pursuing Arya, as he was ordered, rather than fighting with the dancing master. Thus it seems to point in both directions at once - a double-edged bit of evidence if ever there was one.

In either event, it would behoove Trant to avoid reporting any details of his interaction with Forel, if possible, because it looks bad for him either way. Bad enough he lost Arya - no advantage to making it worse by acknowledging his incompetence (didn't kill Syrio) or his distraction (fought with Syrio rather than pursuing Arya), let alone the worst report: that he allowed himself to be distracted and STILL failed to kill the dancing master. So evasion is the least bad of his options.

[AvengingAryaFan]

my thoughts? forget about trants sword....all he WOULD have to do is bodily reach syrio and just plow him over. Fall on him, break his hip.

Just so.

Except: Syrio has an annoying habit of stepping out of the way of such charges, as Martin expressly described in his fight with the +5. And of taking advantage of the charger's miss:

The last red cloak shouted a curse and charged, hacking down with both hands on his sword. Syrio rolled right, and the butcher's cut caught the helmetless man between neck and shoulder ... Before [he] could wrench free his blade, Syrio jabbed him in the apple of his throat.

and

The third guard came leaping over them, slashing at the water dancer's head. Syrio ducked under his blade and thrust upward [into his eye].

I'm confident you won't let those imperfectly identical situations discourage your expert speculation; after all, what could Syrio do to Trant if Trant's charge should miss? Surely he couldn't unbalance him and knock him down from behind - except in the unlikely event Syrio would do approximately what he already did to another guardsman:

He checked one sword and whirled away from a second. Off balance, the second man lurched into the first. Syrio put a boot to his back

[editor's query:

however

did Syrio get

behind

him?]

and the red cloaks went down together.

But, of course, such behavior by Syrio is clearly impossible now, because ... he's facing one man, rather than five? Because Trant is more heavily armored, and therefore more difficult to knock over if he misses a charge? No? Well, I'm sure you have a suitable reason, because that's part of what makes an opinion expert.

Please don't let Martin's writing get in the way of your expert opinion!

And though it seems to me that inconsistency with what he's already written would be one of several reasons Martin might disregard your expert opinion, I realize my personal opinion counts for nothing. As such, I'll simply accept your opinion as expertise unless and until some yet-more-expert poster changes your opinion by disagreeing with it.

[corbon]

One caveat: I find it useful to remind you at several points that you are giving expert opinion; I'm not mocking you, but defending myself against people who have been claiming their opinions are better than mine because they're experts. Of course, the reminders are most prominent when I think the stated opinion is weakest, but when else would I do it? Really, I appreciate your civility.

I'll have to accept your claim that you aren't mocking, but I have to say it feels very much that you are. Perhaps a different technique is in order?

Frankly, I'm not claiming to give expert opinion, and I see a parallel in your telling me that I am giving expert opinion to your argument technique, which mostly seems to be a case of significantly exaggerating or changing the opposition's statements or positions and then demolishing them. Your fluent (even if I disagree with them) arguments imply your reading comprehension is well capable of understanding what is written, so it seems simply to be argument technique?

I'll note that having been classy enough to revise the 'suicidal' position, you still haven't responded to being shown that even your revised position was practically opposite to what was actually written?

#1: Is this your expert opinion? Because to me, it seems that for an expert, every instant of a fight with live weapons is a decision point. Does some expert fighter care to disagree? The ones I pointed out are merely particularly interesting decision points.

General decisions are up for revision at all times and under every change of circumstance. Including mid fight.

OTOH, I'm arguing that Syrio's decision to fight is based on factors outside the fight itself - a) to protect Arya and b ) because of his stated Syrio Does Not Run, which I've described here as a lifestyle and/or honour code, Since these factors are outside the fight, and are not changed at any time we are still witnessing the fight, then there is no reason to assume that there is an effective new decision point (assuming these are the critical factors - which should go without saying, since this is my position I'm explaining, but I don't trust you any more to not simply jump in here and that since they aren't relevant neither is this argument).

#2 , #3, #4: What is "required" of Syrio is unknown, so this is unsupported conjecture. The idea that he is obligated to certain behavior by his lifestyle and honor code is doubly unsupported: not only do you NOT know his lifestyle and honor code (he is different from and superior to the vast majority of bravos) you DO know that he has successfully avoided losing a fight to the death for quite a long time. His longevity as a fighter strongly suggests that his lifestyle does NOT include, and his honor does NOT require, arbitrarily engaging in hopeless fights. You would have him be a robot programmed to blindly follow an "ideal" of bravo behavior that has textual support only in the behavior of some bravo wannabes. You insist he is unable to evaluate the present circumstances with intelligence and freewill. You describe Syrio as a mockery of a bravo, rather than the paragon that he is. What we know of his wit and intelligence in regard to fighting, and of his success and longevity, requires that he is in fact extremely intelligent and adaptable, and does NOT engage in hopeless fights to the death.

It is conjecture - else I would be describing my position as 100% sure.

But it is not unsupported.

It is supported by Arya's later description of Bravos.

It is primarily supported by Syrio's own words, that he Does Not Run.

Nothing about a hopeless fight is suggested, and you are perfectly aware that I've already stated that not only is the fight not 'hopeless' when it began (the decision to take it on), but it is still not entirely 'hopeless' even when we leave it at it's currently worst point. Which makes you dishonest in suggesting that my argument is that he is a mindless robot programmed to fight hopeless fights. You did it again. You took an opponents point, reinvented it as something entirely different, and then demolished that instead. Not impressed. :thumbsdown:

#5, #6 Is this your expert opinion - that survival or lack of survival never enters his decision making process? Because we can then conclude with confidence that Syrio has simply been lucky these many years that he never happened to engage in a fight he couldn't win - because he'd have waded in regardless of the value of the fight compared to the chances of survival. It really is not flattering to Syrio Forel to logically require that he has simply been lucky all these years; and it is also contrary to the impression we are given that he has been successful because of his perceptiveness and blade skills, not because of luck.

No, you can't conclude with confidence that he is just lucky. You can conclude with confidence that he is good (though not necessarily invincible).

You can guess with a fair degree of confidence that he is smart, and careful. Which means he probably did a lot of work in controlling the circumstances around him, leading to being in greater control of any necessary fights. This is supported by the non-combat stuff he is teaching Arya - about be smart and careful.

At least, for a change, you didn't claim that I insisted he was lucky. Sort of.

#7 is unsupported conjecture, and contrary to his longevity. I might grant that if the Syrio I envision - intelligent, adaptable and wise as well as extraordinarily skilled - has chosen to enter a fight then he will not back down, except that you're talking about a Syrio who gets into fights without ever considering the chances of survival, then continuing said fights regardless. If he's always been this way, he could not have survived for decades as a fighter, but by the most extraordinary luck.

Bollocks it is unsupported! Syrio Does Not Run. I don't have an ebook or anything to get quotes properly, but that is literally his own words, more or less, is it not?

(If he never said anything like this then I apologise for a whole bunch of mis-supported statements!)

I'm also not talking about a Syrio who gets into fights without considering the chances for survival. I'm talking (conjecture here) about a Syrio who doesn't get into any fights if he can control the situation enough to avoid it, because he is smart enough and wise enough to know that fighting is always risky, and anything can happen in a fight just through bad luck. But I'm also talking about a Syrio who, once he has taken on a fight, will fight to the best of his ability, in order to achieve the goal

he took the fight on for, regardless of the personal cost. That is implied, IMO, by the Does Not Run.

Ironically, I also think it fits your ideal of Syrio better than your own statements. Despite all the Syrio-is-super-cool-man, IMO you have him acting in cowardly, self-interest when push comes to shove. "I'll hold off the bad guys for Arya a wee while, but not if it actually risks my hide. If I'm in any real danger then I'll run away and let them chase her rather than me".

What do you mean by "will not back down"? is dancing away from Trant "backing down"? Because if so, then this unsupported conjecture is, in fact, an assumption of the very conclusion you set out to prove (that it's unreasonable for Syrio to dance around Trant).

Dancing away, no. But letting Trant go after Arya, yes. He has to keep Trant engaged in the fight or he is effectively backing down.

Dancing away is fine, commendable, and likely. But it can't last forever. At some stage the fight has to end. At that stage, either Trant or Syrio must be unable to continue IMO, because if both can continue then Trant is free to go after Arya, which Syrio can't, IMO, allow.

Trant's later state, and lack of apparent disgrace, suggest very strongly that Trant wasn't unable to continue. Not prove, very strongly suggest.

paragraph deleted because it is just more of the same false accusations already rebutted.

As for giving Arya his best, the only thing Syrio can do for Arya is give her a head start; and he can do that at least one way without losing his life. Given that once he loses his life he can't do anything for Arya, or for anyone else, why, again, would he not choose the option that allows him to live? (My answer is that Syrio does not think Trant has much chance of killing him, but that's incompatible with your thesis.)

He won't choose the option that has him run, because he said he won't.

Nothing in my thesis even suggests that Syrio doesn't think Trant has much chance of killing him, let alone being incompatible. Once more, you are inventing something else and arguing against it, not what has been said.

I do suggest (though I don't think I have before this post, because it never came up) that Syrio is aware that Trant, no matter how badly outclassed, has some chance of killing him. Combat is like that.

I like your theory about it being a goading attack. I'm relieved we can agree on something. Though it's conjecture that's only weakly supported: Syrio's expertise favors having been pretty sure he couldn't hurt Trant, but he could additionally or alternatively have been testing to see if he could find a weakness. #9 However, regardless of the purpose of the stick attack, Syrio still has a decision to make thereafter, based on the results of that attack (and, indeed, at each change in the posture of the fight).

Well, I was thinking of the rap on the head (helmet) at the time. It is pretty clear that the attacks on the joints were at least probing attacks as well as possibly goading attacks.

We can agree to disagree here on the decision point. As explained, I don't think it really is a decision point because I am think (am pretty certain, but not 100%) that Syrio's decisive factors in fighting are all about Arya primarily (and having started the fight, Not Running secondarily). Since neither of these have changed, it isn't a real decision point in continuing the fight. It is instead a decision point in the manner of conducting the fight.