Santa

[Cantabile]

How, as a society, do we justify the mass manipulation of our children? Not only do we lie to them about the existence of Santa Clause, and other mythological creatures, for year after year, but we go to great lengths to preserve and manipulate the children into believing. We have them leave out milk and cookies, then drink and eat it (or throw it away if they suck) and claim Santa did it. We wait until they're unconscious at night, put presents under the tree, and claim Santa went down the chimney at midnight and did it. We take them to see Santa at the mall and other places, lie to them that it's the real Santa. And what's more, we have them write lists to Santa and mail them, knowing that the post office is just going to burn the damned things. Yeah, that's right, not only are we parents in on this manipulation, but the federal government is stringing along the children like puppets as well.

And why? How the hell can we tell our kids that lying is bad, then turn around and lie to them for a decade about the existence of an obese man who breaks into their house at night to give them toys. Is there anything more fucking hypocritical? That's a rhetorical question. Because there isn't.

Now, I know what you're going to say, "But it gives the children magic!" and "We're just lying to make them happy!"

Bullshit. First off, lying to make people happy is a good moral to teach kids? Let's all weave elaborate webs of lies for years on end to make our loved ones happy? Nice.

And I'm not buying the "magic" excuse either. The main reason kids love Christmas is, first and foremost, presents. The Christmas music, the tree, the movies, all those customs, are what creates that special atmosphere. Not the belief in the mythological.

And even if it did, how does that justify our lying?

Now let's look at the advantages of not lying to kids:

- It teaches kids the importance of reality and truth

- They're more appreciative and loving towards parents knowing that it's the parents who are spending all their money to make the kids happy, rather than an obese bearded man.

And you know, not every kid shrugs off the shock when they find out the truth. Some realize their parents and society has been manipulating them their entire life, and they develop serious trust issues, which will go on to affect them for the rest of their lives. And damned right they should.

How do we even sleep at night knowing that we're merrily manipulating our own offspring for years on end? Fucking sociopaths, every one of us.

[Jacen]

" They have a Cave Troll ! "

[Cantabile]

I'm not sure I understand. Isn't that line from Lord of the Rings?

Obviously I'm using hyperbolae in my post, but it actually is a moral question I've wondered randomly during my life. Slave to conformity that I am, I did the whole Santa thing with my kids, but I did feel a bit uneasy about it from time to time. It's so "normal" that it's easy to dismiss the entire topic, but even though I did it all those years I wouldn't say it was moral of me to lie to my children.

[S John]

Well, my guess would be that we do it because our choices are being determined by impulses we have no control over. And if we have no control over it, how can it possibly be a choice? We don't choose to lie to our kids about Santa. We just do.

[aariafromarty]

I have to return some video tapes.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Cantabile,

My wife and I have told our children there is no Santa. We've told them that Santa is a wonderful myth about the spirit of giving at Christmas. Nevertheless, my 7 year old told me in a whisper that she believes in Santa. I will not question her choice to believe.

[BigFatCoward]

how can you ask that question when i'm pretty sure you recently spent a couple of weeks manipulating the board with a made up scenario?

Also its fun, grouchy fu(ker!

[Cantabile]

Scot,

You make an excellent point: If one does choose to believe in Santa (or, by extension, any mythological figure) do we really have a right to crush their belief with the iron fist of realism? I believe that if a kid chooses to believe in Santa, and it makes them happy, then that's perfectly fine.

Another reason I wanted to bring up this topic is because I've known parents that do, in fact, tell their kids there is no Santa, and explain to them the history of the tradition. According to the parents their kids loved Christmas just as much as kids who believe in Santa. So clearly it's not such a one-sided issue. Some parents simply don't feel comfortable lying to their kids, especially when the kid asks a point-blank question: "Mommy, does Santa exist?"

I don't regret lying to my children, since both figured it out on their own eventually and never suffered the "You manipulated me!" trauma that psychologists speak of. If I had been raising them on my own I probably would have been honest with them, but my wife thought the idea of not having them believe in Santa was nothing short of monstrous.

[Lord of Oop North]

Personally, I always found the easter bunny to be far more ridiculous. I mean, with Santa, at least there was a chance that he was just some crazy fucking dude who decided that he wanted to give toys to kids. It's sort of plausible. His elves could just be kidnapped malaysian sweatshop workers. Definitely doable, especially because he would have to be some sort of reclusive billionaire to setup a factory at the north fucking pole. But with the Easter Bunny, nothing makes sense. When I was younger, I had seen rabbits. I knew that they had nothing to do with eggs, or chocolate. They certainly do not lay chocolate eggs. I couldn't understand it at all. Until I did LSD. And then it started to make sense. Because rabbit poo is coincidently shaped like cadburys chocolate eggs.

[Cantabile]

how can you ask that question when i'm pretty sure you recently spent a couple of weeks manipulating the board with a made up scenario?

Also its fun, grouchy fu(ker!

I don't want to derail this topic, but I did not at any point manipulate the board with a made-up scenario. I suppose it doesn't really matter whether or not you, or anyone else, believes me, though; it's in the past.

And hey, I'm not being all bah-humbug and demanding a cultural genocide on Santa :P Like I said, I lied to my kids too.

Personally, I always found the easter bunny to be far more ridiculous. I mean, with Santa, at least there was a chance that he was just some crazy fucking dude who decided that he wanted to give toys to kids. It's sort of plausible. But with the Easter Bunny, nothing makes sense. When I was younger, I had seen rabbits. I knew that they had nothing to do with eggs, or chocolate. They certainly do not lay chocolate eggs. I couldn't understand it at all. Until I did LSD. And then it started to make sense.

This just reminded me of something: Society seems to be trying to make its lies more believable with each passing year. I'm thinking of that website where kids can "track Santa" via GPS during his Christmas voyage, specifically. I think that Santa is implausible as the rest of the band of holiday-mascots, it's just that there's more focus on him, and more bullshit to convince kids he's real, than there is for the others.

I mean, did anyone here actually believe in the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy?

[Lord of Oop North]

And hey, I'm not being all bah-humbug and demanding a cultural genocide on Santa :P

And even if you did, good luck. That fat bastard has the technology to visit every single fucking house in a single night. He's like a living ICBM. A war raged upon Santa would be costly. An IED under every Tree, and some shrapnel from the stockings. Please think of the children!

[Jacen]

That sounds like a great movie idea, Loon.

And yeah, with his ability to manipulate time and teleport, I think Santa is at least a class five mutant or level 29 wizard. Not to mention his obvious wealth, which surely must chump both Tony Stark, Scrooge McDuck, and Ritchie Riche's. Either way, he is not to be fucked with.

[Cantabile]

And even if you did, good luck. That fat bastard has the technology to visit every single fucking house in a single night. He's like a living ICBM. A war raged upon Santa would be costly. An IED under every Tree, and some shrapnel from the stockings. Please think of the children!

:lmao: I've never really thought about that possibility. Wouldn't the world's governments be terrified of Santa? He has no affiliation with any country, answers to no one, and has the ability to visit every person on the planet within 24 hours.

Santa is capable of single-handedly driving the entire human race to extinction. If kids thought Bin Laden was scary...

[Kosciuszko]

I think the real question is whether Santa shits gold, isn't it?

[Alytha]

I'm so sorry, but there has been a little accident :(

Santa is dead :crying:

[Cantabile]

And what about the Naughty-or-Nice-List? Do we really want to teach our kids that the only reason they should behave is because of material rewards? Are we training them to be dolphins hopping through hoops for a fish at the end?

In all seriousness, I'm not sure why they bothered adding that into Santa mythology. Are there any kids that actually act any differently out of fear they'll get coal? Hell, are there any parents cold-hearted enough to even put coal in a kid's stocking?

[Pallantides]

In all seriousness, I'm not sure why they bothered adding that into Santa mythology. Are there any kids that actually act any differently out of fear they'll get coal? Hell, are there any parents cold-hearted enough to even put coal in a kid's stocking?

Mine were. After that episode though, I never misbehaved for them again.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

As a child we always used to call Santa Father Christmas. ie the real one. his many many helpers all had the tilte of Santa. these where the ones you saw in shops and grotto's and on TV ect. The real Father Christmas was far too busy managing the distribution of all the gifts and checking to make sure the bad boys and girl lists where accurate and uptodate.

then on xmas eve (and a few days before so he can get round the whole world) Father Christmas would fly his raindeers out to several arranged points all over the world and drop off a shed load of toys which his Sant's would do tha actual creeping down the chimney thing (normally they would even just knock on the door and hand the pressise over to one of the adults) and deliver the presents to all the Stockings. I was told my Grandfather was one of these Santa's and it was his job (and 2 others) to deliver teh presents to all the houses in town. I was told that when my Grandfather got too old for it, my Dad would take over as a Santa. - what can I say, it was illogical that Father Christmas can get round every house in the whole world in just one night. But we wheren't allowed to tell other children cos we wheren't supposed to know about the Santa's we had special insider knowledge.

Also earlier on Xmas eve the fairies would visit every house and sprinkle fairy dust (lager glitter flakes) of the children to make them fall asleep. Afterall the Santa's could not deliver the pressies unless you where alseep. Some of my best memories of Xmas are waking up and seeing all this magiacl fairy dust on the pillow and the little bits on our faces. I mean that proved more than anything it wasn't just Grandad filling up the pillow cases with pressies.

One of the other things I remember, I had just turned 4 and Santa (my Grandad dresses up but I didn't know it at the time) was visiting our local playgroup. I remember being kind of wary and I had to sit on his knee. I remember he asked me to give him a kiss. I really did not want too kiss this old fat smelly man (I think the suit must have smelt of mothballs or something) I also remember thinking if I didn't then I might not get any presents in my stocking. I gave him the tinist quickest peck I felt I could get away with.

When I was about 7 or 8 I had worked out the truth. but I pretened to believe to my parents overwise they might have felt they didn't have to get me anything.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

In all seriousness, I'm not sure why they bothered adding that into Santa mythology. Are there any kids that actually act any differently out of fear they'll get coal? Hell, are there any parents cold-hearted enough to even put coal in a kid's stocking?

My cousin hung her stocking up for a second night - I guess hoping it might get filled again. She got a lump of coal.

[Alytha]

Here in Luxembourg the bad children get willow switches from Santa's helper. Of course we always found those much cooler because you could go and whip other people with them.

I read once that small kids don't have a sense of good and bad in terms of what they should do, so they do the thing that will get them a reward, until they develop a conscience. Maybe the Santa myth is linked to that.