Converting for the sake of it

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

My own situation is actually the reverse of this, though. I'm the son of a jewish mother (and father), and I have Orthodox relatives. They are convinced that I am jewish, to the point where one of them actually told me that my atheism was willful ignorance to my true beliefs and then went on to question if I was denying my people for "the gentiles" because I was uncomfortable being true to myself and my family.

Finally proof that no good comes from "believing" in Santa. :P

ot: it is never right to pretend believing in a religion just to please others.

[Stego]

Stego,

So, given that I believe in what you call "mythology" but I do not insist everyone else believe as I do where does that place me in your opinion?

Your beliefs are cool with me, man. As long as you genuinely do not try to impact anyone based on those beliefs.

Meaning, for instance, you should probably not vote if your first loyalty is to a deity because your choices will be jaded by faith as opposed to the opposite, reason.

ETA: IMO. :D

But since you really just want me to say you're ok with me, then you're ok with me, Scot. (Except for the lawyer thing, the type of law you practice, your Confederate sympathy, and your allegiance to an evil religion)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Stego,

I'm going to keep voting. However, I temper my vote by only adopting a religous postion if there is also a secular rational for that position. For example I support homosexual marriage despite the fact my church opposes it.

[Ormond]

And that's freaking ludicrous. Religion is a question of faith, not ancestry. I can't wrap my head around how it's more important to have a nonbeliever show up at a jewish wedding and pretend to give a shit than it is to allow the believing son of a jewish father to participate in his father's religion without off putting hurdles - but hey, I guess that's why I'm not a rabbi.

My own situation is actually the reverse of this, though. I'm the son of a jewish mother (and father), and I have Orthodox relatives. They are convinced that I am jewish, to the point where one of them actually told me that my atheism was willful ignorance to my true beliefs and then went on to question if I was denying my people for "the gentiles" because I was uncomfortable being true to myself and my family.

EDIT: converting away from judiasm with at jewish mother is also, from what I've heard, "not possible." Good to know.

Your relatives' claim that you must be willfully ignorant of your "true beliefs" is of course silly.

But Jewishness is rather complicated because it is BOTH a religion and an ethnicity, isn't it? There have been many famous persons (Sigmund Freud being the one I am most familiar with) who have quite adamantly insisted that they were atheists and Jews at the same time. And certainly most modern anti-Semitism, as shown most horribly in Nazi Germany, is based on the idea that Jewishness is a racial or ethnic category more than it is a religious category.

So for orthodox Jews being Jewish is as much of a nationality as a religion and "converting" is much more akin to being adopted or nationalized into a new nation than it is to simply espousing a set of beliefs. You don't become an American simply by proclaiming you believe in American ideals, and you don't become an ethnic Jew just by espousing belief in the Torah.

Though personally I think it would be better for most Jewish persons and for the world as a whole if Jewishness was considered simply a matter of religious belief, I think there is a long history that makes that nigh unto impossible for many people to accept.

[john]

Mythology seems a bit broad a thing to criticise. Everyone believes in mythology to some degree don't they? I mean, ultimately most decisions are taken on instinct and only justified in retrospect. So it doesn't make much difference whether that justification is based on faith or reason.

I'm a cold-hearted cynic, but i still entertain the occasional superstitious thought. I'm still subject to the usual taboos and traditions. Even Stego's anti-religious schtick is his own kind of mythology. :P

[MinDonner]

As a racial or ethnic category, though, doesn't that make the idea of "converting" rather, um, impossible?

[Sheep the Evicted]

Okay i'll round it off. In Islam i'm only allowed to marry "people of the book", so Jews and Christians are okay, devout or not.

If i married a devout atheist or, horror of horrors, a pagan then i imagine a fair share of my family would disown me. And i fully expect my mother would too (this kind of happened last year with my uncle who finally adopted after 25 years of a childless marriage) but my father probably wouldn't, or he would only say he would. Not because he loved me more, if anything the opposite is true, its just that my mother would see it as, and completely sincerely believe, that marrying the pagan would damn my soul for all eternity and that its her duty as my loving mother to do everything in her power to stop this from happening. Which is why i won't marry a pagan or an athiest anyway, im fairly sure my mother would find a way to destroy my marriage inside of two years. And again here comes the religious hypocrisy; i could probably avoid social Armageddon if it was known that she was my long term girlfriend - just so long as i didn't actually marry her. Which is actually a brilliant excuse not to get married that i'll have to remember.

[Ormond]

As a racial or ethnic category, though, doesn't that make the idea of "converting" rather, um, impossible?

I think that's because in modern times we think of ethnicity in purely genetic terms.

I think that in ancient Biblical concepts, which the Orthodox Rabbis' ideas would still be based on, that it is possible to be "adopted" into a new ethnicity in certain circumstances. In the Old Testament, you can say that's what happened to Ruth. She was born a Moabite, but was accepted as a Jew after it was clear she had completely abandoned her original people and was now committed to Israel. But note that in the story of Ruth her declaration to Naomi is "your people shall be my people and my God shall be your God". The "people" idea comes first and the connection to a particular God is thought to follow, as would have been the common concept in all of the ancient Near East. If you were a Jew or Israelite you believed in Yahweh; if you were a Moabite you believed in some other god(s). The idea that one's identification with a particular national group could be separated from belief in that group's god just didn't compute back then.

I think the most appropriate analogy in modern times is more "nationality" than "ethnicity", to get away from the genetic connection. Becoming a Jew for an Orthodox rabbi is a matter of changing one's nationality as much as it is changing one's religion.

[kuroishi]

Okay i'll round it off. In Islam i'm only allowed to marry "people of the book", so Jews and Christians are okay, devout or not.

If i married a devout atheist or, horror of horrors, a pagan then i imagine a fair share of my family would disown me. And i fully expect my mother would too (this kind of happened last year with my uncle who finally adopted after 25 years of a childless marriage) but my father probably wouldn't, or he would only say he would. Not because he loved me more, if anything the opposite is true, its just that my mother would see it as, and completely sincerely believe, that marrying the pagan would damn my soul for all eternity and that its her duty as my loving mother to do everything in her power to stop this from happening. Which is why i won't marry a pagan or an athiest anyway, im fairly sure my mother would find a way to destroy my marriage inside of two years. And again here comes the religious hypocrisy; i could probably avoid social Armageddon if it was known that she was my long term girlfriend - just so long as i didn't actually marry her. Which is actually a brilliant excuse not to get married that i'll have to remember.

When my (atheist) sister married my (non religious muslim / sometimes agnostic) moroccan brother in law, he had to go to the Morocco consulate to register the wedding. One of the first question he was asked was :

"-she's not muslim? Is she jewish or christian?"

-Uh, neither, she's an atheist"

-No, that won't do... is her father called Peter, Jack or something like that?"

-Uh, yeah...

-Ok, we'll put her as christian then."

:dunno:

On converting in order to marry : a lot of religious people seem to believe that atheists or agnostics don't really have any conviction, and that converting shouldn't matter to them and make no difference. Well, that's not the case : as an atheist, converting to any religion would be a real denial of my personal beliefs.

[Datepalm]

 

Though personally I think it would be better for most Jewish persons and for the world as a whole if Jewishness was considered simply a matter of religious belief, I think there is a long history that makes that nigh unto impossible for many people to accept.

Its also just...wrong. I mean, I guess I sort of see the confusion, (though it dosen't make much sense to me, tbh. Its an ethnicity. And  a religeon. Its not actually complicated.) But you're just saying to me to, well, stop being who I am, becuase it would line up more prettily on the form if I did. I don't think it 'would be better for most Jewish persons' at all. 

[Stego]

Stego,

I'm going to keep voting. However, I temper my vote by only adopting a religous postion if there is also a secular rational for that position. For example I support homosexual marriage despite the fact my church opposes it.

Fucking apostate.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Stego,

Thanks.

[Samalander]

My own situation is actually the reverse of this, though. I'm the son of a jewish mother (and father), and I have Orthodox relatives. They are convinced that I am jewish, to the point where one of them actually told me that my atheism was willful ignorance to my true beliefs and then went on to question if I was denying my people for "the gentiles" because I was uncomfortable being true to myself and my family.

Your situation, as you describe it, is quite simple: you are a Jew. An atheist Jew.

As a racial or ethnic category, though, doesn't that make the idea of "converting" rather, um, impossible?

Jews are not racist. There is no race restriction on people who want to convert.

[palimpsest.]

As a racial or ethnic category, though, doesn't that make the idea of "converting" rather, um, impossible?

Have to agree. I mean, it's hard enough to adopt a faith you don't really believe in, but if you're not a part of the ethnicity, what do you do then? Do you become half-Jewish or something? And correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that awareness of Jewish history, their small numbers and all that was a big part of being Jewish - and I can't see how one could possibly feel that he's a part of it all if one's not born a Jew.

If i married a devout atheist or, horror of horrors, a pagan then i imagine a fair share of my family would disown me. And i fully expect my mother would too (this kind of happened last year with my uncle who finally adopted after 25 years of a childless marriage) but my father probably wouldn't, or he would only say he would. Not because he loved me more, if anything the opposite is true, its just that my mother would see it as, and completely sincerely believe, that marrying the pagan would damn my soul for all eternity and that its her duty as my loving mother to do everything in her power to stop this from happening.

I never understood that logic ... I mean, sure, you do all you can to prevent it from happening, but if you fail, then why can't you just say 'ok, I did my best, he's not going to change his mind'? I mean, if you believe that someone's soul is going to be damned for all eternity or something (and that someone being your son), can't you at least make things easier for him while he's still alive and not burning in hell?

(I'm pretty ignorant about religions, so I apologise if I got it totally wrong.)

On converting in order to marry : a lot of religious people seem to believe that atheists or agnostics don't really have any conviction, and that converting shouldn't matter to them and make no difference. Well, that's not the case : as an atheist, converting to any religion would be a real denial of my personal beliefs.

I agree. I don't even know what category I fall into (agnostic or atheist), but I could never convert to a faith I don't believe in.

On the other hand, I think there are people who label themselves as atheists for the lack of a better term, bur actually simply do not care about religion/beliefs and would be willing to convert to anything they don't exactly disagree with, because they simply don't care. Of course, this is untrue for most, but I know one or two 'atheists' who are like that (and one of them converted to Christianity).

[palimpsest.]

*double post, sorry*

[Samalander]

I agree. I don't even know what category I fall into (agnostic or atheist), but I could never convert to a faith I don't believe in.

To be an atheist you have to believe. You have to believe with the same passion of any devout religious person. You have to believe, with all your heart, that there is no God. If you can't say that about yourself, you are an agnostic.

[Samalander]

...but if you're not a part of the ethnicity, what do you do then? Do you become half-Jewish or something?

A person who converts takes on the ethnicity as well (Fully). What they to do with/how they wish to treat their old ethnicity is their business.

[palimpsest.]

Ok, agnostic then. Thanks, Samalander :)

As for the ethnicity, I wonder how many people do actually convert to Judaism. It seems to me that it's much harder to convert for purely 'aesthetic' reasons than when converting to, say, Catholicism.

[Sheep the Evicted]

When my (atheist) sister married my (non religious muslim / sometimes agnostic) moroccan brother in law, he had to go to the Morocco consulate to register the wedding. One of the first question he was asked was :

"-she's not muslim? Is she jewish or christian?"

-Uh, neither, she's an atheist"

-No, that won't do... is her father called Peter, Jack or something like that?"

-Uh, yeah...

-Ok, we'll put her as christian then."

:dunno:

Yeah that's why i said *devout* atheist. The Stego kind where you can't sweep their beliefs under the rug, which is how its usually done as per your example.

Now baring in mind that i don't know much about this topic, i think the other big exception is pagans. If you sister had been a practising Hindu for example then i think they would have flat out refused to marry them.

I never understood that logic ... I mean, sure, you do all you can to prevent it from happening, but if you fail, then why can't you just say 'ok, I did my best, he's not going to change his mind'? I mean, if you believe that someone's soul is going to be damned for all eternity or something (and that someone being your son), can't you at least make things easier for him while he's still alive and not burning in hell?

(I'm pretty ignorant about religions, so I apologise if I got it totally wrong.)

Well here's the thing if i found out my little brother was dabbling with meth, than no matter how much i spout about freedom of choice and living your own life and so on, i would do everything i possibly could to get him off it and because i love him like i do it would take a hell of a long time for me to give up on him.

Eternal damnation is like that but on crack.

Remember what i said about my mother falling out with my uncle. The how's of it are complicated but basically my uncle broke some religious law when he adopted last year, they have tried everything else under the sun for the last 25 years and it just wasn't working so they decided to adopt damnation or not. Everyone else in the family either congratulated him or basically said "what your doing is wrong but its your life man". My mother refused to recognise their adopted son and called her sister in law a "godless whore that's dragging her husband to hell" (its the wife that can't have the child and she's obsessed about it while my uncle could probably live childless or - this being in saudi arabia - marry another wife) and the situation escalated dramatically from there.

When I asked her why she couldn't do what everybody else was doing she said that she loved her brother - he worked three jobs to support her through university - too much to give up on him like the rest were doing.

All this of course comes from the fact that she is so utterly certain in her conviction of the afterlife like most fanatics are.

I agree. I don't even know what category I fall into (agnostic or atheist), but I could never convert to a faith I don't believe in.

But this i don't understand. Look at the hell i would go through if i married someone unsuitable. Its not like i have a choice in the matter either; religion and family are not separate for me, i would basically be sacrificing most of my entire social support network.

While for you religion, or faith is a thing your not even sure of. All you have to do is pay lip service, and a very small amount at that and only to the fanatics, at a few family gatherings. It would be profoundly selfish of you not to.

[Prue]

What's supposed to be so 'ungodly' about adopting?? That's the first time I heard about religious objections against adoptions. Very strange. Surely it should be considered a good deed to give a child a good home?