Converting for the sake of it

[palimpsest.]

Would anyone have any good suggestions in reading material on the subject? Devoutly religous people are something of an enigma to me. I cant understand how people believe what they cant see, hear or touch. Yet I am not an aethiest either, go go contridictions.

I don't think this is a contradiction - if you were an atheist, you would believe that there is no higher power, even though you have not seen the proof. No contradiction there. :)

[Galactus]

it dosen't work that way - its not two seperate components. If you convert, you're jewish - legally, religeously, ethnically, whatever. Thats it. I know that that sounds wrong. How can you convert to an ethinicity, etc, etc, but there it is. Its a translated concept from a  culture where identity isn't defined this way, is all. 

So someone who converted to judaism (properly, however that is defined) could immigrate into Israel via the law of return?

[jurble]

Religon just confuses the hell out of me. I cant understand a need for an outside agent to tell me what my moral code should be. I can decide on my own why I should or shouldnt do something, though in practice my decisions will be based on what is legal or what is more expediant and not likely to get me in trouble. Yet I believe people should follow the rules becuase rules are ment to be followed.

Some of us don't have internal moral codes, and need outside guidance, otherwise we'd be raping babies and eating pork.

[Galactus]

Yeah that's why i said *devout* atheist. The Stego kind where you can't sweep their beliefs under the rug, which is how its usually done as per your example.

There's this anecdote retold many times.

There's this guy who gets into a cab in Northern Ireland and the cab driver asks him if he's protestant or catholic.

"Well, I'm jewish, actually."

"So, are you jewish-protestant or jewish-catholic?"

[Datepalm]

So someone who converted to judaism (properly, however that is defined) could immigrate into Israel via the law of return?

Of course. (actually, thats easy. Its the opposited situations that are tricky - jews who have converted away from Judaism.)

[Prue]

So people who converted away from judaism would normally be obliged to leave the country?

[Stalker]

So people who converted away from judaism would normally be obliged to leave the country?

No. You don't have to be Jewish to live in Israel, and it is not accept practise for any state to render any person without citizenship.

[Prue]

No. You don't have to be Jewish to live in Israel, and it is not accept practise for any state to render any person without citizenship.

Ah, good, then I misinterpreted Datepalm's statement. I guess she meant that immigration becomes more difficult for people who converted away from judaism then.

[Sheep the Evicted]

Sheep, why should someone you love have to compromise their beliefs for your convenience? That seems fairly selfish to me.

Because they don't ? I'm not asking them to be Christian i'm asking them to lie at family gatherings if the subject is brought up which it won't be after the first gathering. Its a lily white lie, and it is for all intents and purposes harmless.

If they're willing to play along fine, if not that's their choice.

Ofcourse. I just can't reconcile not wanting to play along with a loving couple. Donating your kidney is far far more inconvenient and you'd expect most couples to make it if the situation came up.

While I understand the dogmas of both faiths I cant make the connection between the dogma and the practice. I think I may have met 1 or 2 people in my whole life that actually followed the dogma with their actions.

Well Islam is rather simple in that regard. All you have to do is believe that there is no god but God and that Muhammad was a messenger of that god. You will also have to proclaim it out loud in front of witnesses - sort of like a wedding - and once that's done that's it your a muslim. That's not to say you won't burn in hell for a couple of millenia for not following a few of the tenets, though there is that popular proverb of the prostitute that went straight to heaven because she went out of her way to save a cat from drowning so you never really know, but at least your guaranteed to get out of hell eventually.

Personally, and for most young muslims in the west i imagine, that outside agent telling me what's moral is the kind of stuff i don't pay attention to - like the adoption laws and sex before marriage. But there is more stuff than just the morality too; like paying extra taxes towards charity and praying five times a day.

As for good reading sources, sorry but i cant help you there.

[ljkeane]

Because they don't ? I'm not asking them to be Christian i'm asking them to lie at family gatherings if the subject is brought up which it won't be after the first gathering. Its a lily white lie, and it is for all intents and purposes harmless.

You don't think that potentially having to lie about who they are for the rest of their lives is something significant to expect of someone? That doesn't really reconcile with a loving couple to me.

[Cantabile]

Why is it that many religious people seem to be far more accepting of someone as long as they have a belief, even if it's not their own? If I tell a Christian that I am Jewish, they usually just shrug and say, "Oh, okay," whereas if I say I am an atheist the onslaught of, "What? Why? You don't believe in anything?" comes at me nearly every time.

Why is it worse to have no religion rather than be a member of a different religion? Either way, according to their beliefs, I am going to face damnation, so does my route there really matter?

Really, I am just absolute sick and tired of the "Well what do you believe, then?" question. What kind of answer are they expecting?

[slim da reaper]

Some of us don't have internal moral codes, and need outside guidance, otherwise we'd be raping babies and eating pork.

If someone is aware it is something which degrades them, and they still wish to do it then an outside code might stop them but they are one immature individual still and so that mindset will find other ways to be perverse to itself.

[Samalander]

Why should anyone have to follow your religion's definition of what makes someone Jewish if they have no interest in following your religion? If you go by the whole 'you're Jewish if you're mother is Jewish' thing some of my cousins are Jewish but since they have no interest in being Jewish and no association with any sort of Jewish culture or religion insisting on them being called Jewish is fairly ridiculous.

Ok, how to go about this...

Some people like to think the right for self determination is absolute and supercedes everything else. The world, however, doesn't work that way. If one is born on American soil, one is an American. And if he can't get another country to take him, he's an American for life, like it or not. Now, your cousins can choose not to wear any Jewish trapping, never to say any prayer, not to speak a word of Hebrew. But, there are things they cannot give away just by forceful wishing. The right to marry a Jewish woman in a religous ceremony, to name one. The option to become an Israeli, to name another (unless they become, like, major criminals). These things are what one might call 'birthright'. Besides, history is rife with examples of men and women connected to the Jewish people not be allowed to determine for themselves the nature of their connection (mostly by hostile forces). So, going "I don't wanna" :crying: isn't really pertinent (they could do something drastic, like, I don't know, become Catholics, but other than that...)

Hey, thats me! How do I make it through a day?

I guess being an atheist helps? :dunno:

Nationality is especially problematic since Israel exists, yet not all Jews consider themselves Israeli.

But they are all potential Israelis (works just like potential energy).

What is unhygienic about a bit of water splashed on your forehead? ;)

We're not Christians. She's going to have to go all the way in.

[ljkeane]

So, going "I don't wanna" :crying: isn't really pertinent

Well since the society they live in really doesn't care neither is the religious definition of what makes someone Jewish. Just because some elements of Jewish society they have absolutely no contact with thinks they should I don't see why they should allow some long dead bronze age charlatans to dictate how they identify themselves regardless of your opinion.

[jurble]

That's not to say you won't burn in hell for a couple of millenia for not following a few of the tenets, though there is that popular proverb of the prostitute that went straight to heaven because she went out of her way to save a cat from drowning so you never really know, but at least your guaranteed to get out of hell eventually.

She saved a dog from dying of thirst iirc.

[Stego]

To be an atheist you have to believe. You have to believe with the same passion of any devout religious person. You have to believe, with all your heart, that there is no God. If you can't say that about yourself, you are an agnostic.

Don't be putting your absurd definitions on my atheism, please.

An atheist is a rational, reasoning being. As such, they don't believe anything 'with all of their heart.' They understand cognition occurs in the brain and that reason does not stem from passion.

[jurble]

They understand cognition occurs in the brain and that reason does not stem from passion.

Atheist...or Dunyain?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Cantabile,

I have no problem with people who are atheists. That's their call.

[Old Nan]

reason does not stem from passion.

Ah, but passion rules reason nonetheless. This most insidious of rules may be everyone's ruin. Though we know better, some of us are violating it anyway. Each faction presses that their course of action is reason, yes, but all too often one fears all are passion.

[Samalander]

Well since the society they live in really doesn't care neither is the religious definition of what makes someone Jewish.

Just because some elements of Jewish society they have absolutely no contact with thinks they should I don't see why they should allow some long dead bronze age charlatans to dictate how they identify themselves regardless of your opinion.

Forget it. If it hasn't sunk in by now, it won't help if I keep pontificating. <_<

An atheist is a rational, reasoning being. As such, they don't believe anything 'with all of their heart.' They understand cognition occurs in the brain and that reason does not stem from passion.

Oh, I'm sorry. Was the existance of a deity disproved with scientific certainty and they forgot to tell us about it? Because until such a time as that comes to pass, the denial of God is as much an act of faith as the belief in one (faith=belief that is not based on proof).

Besides, human reason is fallible. It is known.