Devastated by the...

[Sasha Steelsong]

I think the North has always been relatively separate from the rest of the realm; and as such, there wasn't much concern over who held the crossing.

True. Since the Stark bent the knee instead of fighting and the north wasn't a problem for the centuries that followed I can see how its actual strategic importance was overlooked. This is really the first time it has become an issue. That said any king/queen that from this point on overlooks it in terms of control of the realm should have their head examined. I'm all for Dany coming back to Westeros and ditching the seven kingdoms image for a unified kingdom not marked by old boundaries.

[georgeforeman]

That's what I remember most from my first time reading it, the sense of impending Doom dripping off every page in the lead up to the massacre itself. You really knew that something bad was going to happen...but I didn't really expect everyone to get murdered!

Fantastic writing, that lead-up. Really really well done.

Especially during the Red Wedding chapter, Cat's foreboding is contagious. When they showed up at the twins and sent Grey Wind away, it was like I was watching a horror film, screaming "Don't go in there!" at the screen. And when Cat relaxed during the feast, I relaxed, too, right up until the ax fell. Fantastically written chapter.

[Guest]

While I didn't see the Red Wedding coming, my reaction wasn't quite the same as yours.

It was more along the lines of "Hooray, no more Cat chapters!"

Indeed! :cheers:

[Doomprophet]

for me, i actually took the red redding in stride, but then fell apart at red viper dual with the mountain. I was just so frustrated by how tottally the bad guys were winning. I was like "No, No! GOD DAMN IT NO! DIE YOU BIG FREAK! DIE!"

I even went so far is start detailing how it impossible for the mountain win with his injuries (really, no should be able to effectively hold someone with armpit wound)

But then again, alot of things the mountain did strained scientiffic laws.

[Angrybeard]

Plus I'm still sort of lost as to why successive kings allowed such a minor house to hold such a tactically important location. Hopefully that will be fixed by the end of the series.

Don't worry. The Freys are going to get theirs; its already been foreshadowed.

[olennaredyne]

Some critics of Martin's work are people who don't appreciate getting kicked in the nuts, as others have put it, by an author. And Martin does it not just once, but again and again and again, almost sadistically. People who don’t enjoy such kicks should not enter a sadist's parlour, and that is why critics warn readers about it.

I don't think Martin is a sadist if you analyze all the deaths thematically - what I've appreciated about them is that you can see all of them coming, you can re-read the books and see all the hints, foreshadowings, the origins of a character's downfall mapped out for you. It's like great historical intrigue - every character's fate so preciously intertwined in a delicate balance - and a single death can have far-reaching repercussions, whether it's Elia Martell or Mycah the Butcher's Boy.

But I see what you mean. There's a film blogger out there that I'm a huge fan of, an incredibly thoughtful and intelligent critic. He mentions books once in awhile, and once commented that he stopped reading ASOIAF after the Red Wedding because in his mind, it constituted "a violent act against the reader". Which is partially true, but I prefer to think it's offset by the fact that even all deaths have a significant impact, and part of the impact rests on the nature of these deaths. It's the staggering barbarism of the Red Wedding that's also had a bigger effect than if it had gone down with subtlety and shrewdness.

[Ser Bullitin The Board]

I thought the Red Wedding was irritating since I had seen it creeping over the horizon since Robb moved south in the first place. I enjoyed the end of the Cat chapters, but was still pissed at Old Lord Raisin Frey. I will say I also enjoyed the stark brutality(pun intended) of the killings. It depicts a much more realistic chain of events. Honor has always been in short supply. Life, and therefore death, have never been fair. Martin portrays this better than most writers.

[Lady Godiva]

I know exactly what you mean about Joffrey's wedding! I was cheering, I kid you not. I swear, I could not sleep properly for 3 days after reading the RW. I was so horribly upset and sad.

Then, after reading about Joffrey, I felt reborn (lol, drama!). But really, till that point it felt like the better characters were destined for endless misery, whereas fuckwits like Joff sailed through merrily (faceful of dung notwithstanding). Seeing him die, and so terribly and painfully was exquisite.

Martin, you've turned me into a sadist. And I love it!

RE Cateyln, I never disliked her, and I think part of what made her POV so good was how vividly her love for her family came through. Even during the tensest moments, her mind would wander to Ned, or Bran, or Arya... her pain was constant, and she bore it with such dignity.

In fact, I think the very fact that her POVs were so emotional and rooted in her love for her family, sort of carried over that sense of worry and affection for them to me as well. Convoluted, but what I mean is: I felt one with her, worrying for her children and not herself because that's how she was written. Her agony during the RW was heartstopping. Her clawing her face is an image that won't leave me.

So I don't know, I don't feel it's about not liking Cat; it's about being invested in the same things she is. For me, anyway. That's why one of my most anticipated moments till the RW was her eventual reunion with Arya. I was so gutted that didn't happen and for a while, I felt very cheated.

Thank you and yes, I love these forums, been reading more than posting and try and divert my eyes of the spoilers, but it's okay.

I read the RW the night before last and it bothered me, so sad, and I really wanted to kick some arese lol.

I also don't dislike her, she isn't a fav, but her role in the book has been to basically show the pain and the loss and what it means to be dutiful but yet also want vengeance, but also seek love in place of vengeance (trading Jamie for the daughter (s).

You all better tell me that the things the villagers said about Robb's head, the wolf's head and the crown is just a rumor. :P

[LadyoftheNorth72]

If you are just now at the point in the books of reading about the Red Wedding, then I would heartily recommend sticking with the "still reading" forums. Otherwise you are going to ruin the rest of the books for yourself.

And to answer your question ...no. It was not a rumor.

[Queensmoot]

I was actually spoiled on the Red Wedding, and I was still devastated. The drums, the nails, Jaime Lannister sends his regards.... ::brr::

But ASOS also contains the greatest death in the series, imho

"Only Cat." :cheers:

[LadyoftheNorth72]

You mean UnCat? Lol

[Errant Bard]

No, he would be talking of

Lysa

[Bastard Walder]

Why would anyone think Robb was the main character? He didn't even have a PoV.

[Queensmoot]

No, he would be talking of

Lysa

No, he would be talking of

Lysa

yep!

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Whoops. Duh.

[ChromeWeasel]

I'm fairly new to the series and brand new to this forum. In fact, I sought this place out because I don't know anyone else reading this series, and at this point I feel like I need people to talk to just to get through the rest of it!

Last night before bed, I read a few chapters as I always do. I was at the part in A Storm of Swords where Edmure marries a Frey daughter. It utterly gutted me. I had to re-read several pages to make sure I was reading it correctly.

It is not hyperbole to say that I have never been this affected by scenes from a book. I mean, I've read books where important characters die, but this was just so unexpected and so mean! I had been looking forward to Arya reuniting with Robb and her mother... and then to have that happen. At two and a half books in, I had come to believe that Robb was the central character and that the ongoing premise of the entire series was bringing this family back together. Now I honestly don't know where Martin is going with it.

Were other readers as shocked and devastated by this scene as I was? Do people think Martin is planning to kill off most of the major characters, or can we hope for a happy ending for anyone?

The shocking turns of events are what makes this such a good story. I didnt see the red wedding coming, but it makes sense in it's own way and it really shakes up the story. I like these events, along with a relatively realistic and un-PC world that Martin writes about. That's what makes this series such a living classic.