What do you feel about Arya and her...

[TabeeeddShell]

killings...

Dead or missing

• King Joffrey: Joffrey Baratheon, because he ordered the execution of her father.
  
• The Hound: Sandor Clegane, because he killed her friend Mycah and laughed about it.(later removed as they traveled together)
  
• Ser Amory: Amory Lorch, because he attacked her group, killed Yoren, and prevented her to reach the Wall.
  
• Ser Gregor: Gregor Clegane, because of his and his band's atrocities.
  
• The Tickler: He was Gregor Clegane's torturer, and killed many people before her eyes.
  
• Polliver: He was in Gregor Clegane's company and stole her sword Needle.
  
• Chiswyck: He was one of the soldiers guarding prisoners in Gregor's company, and joked about their ordeal.
  
• Weese: He was a cruel understeward at Harrenhal who mistreated her when she worked for him as "weasel".
  

Still alive

• Ser Ilyn: Ilyn Payne, because he beheaded her father.
  
• Ser Meryn: Meryn Trant, because he killed her master at arms, Syrio Forel.
  
• Queen Cersei: Cersei Lannister, because she was the one behind the fall of her family.
  
• Dunsen: He was one of the soldiers guarding prisoners in Gregor's company, and stole Gendry's helm.
  
• Raff the Sweetling: He was one of the soldiers guarding prisoners in Gregor's company, and killed her comrade Lommy Greenhands.
  

Confirmed Kills

• A King's Landing stableboy: Stabbed in the belly, after he threatened her during the fall of the Starks.
  
• Several Lannister soldiers, during Amory Lorch's attack, slashed and stabbed.
  
• Chyswick: Pushed off the walls of Harrenhal by Jaqen H'ghar, after she ordered his death.
  
• Weese: Killed by his own dog, turned mad by Jaqen H'ghar, after she ordered his death.
  
• A Bolton guard: Throat slit, he blocked her way out of Harrenhal.
  
• A Sarsfield squire: Stabbed in the belly, after he threatened her.
  
• The Tickler: Stabbed many times in the back.
  
• Dareon: Throat slit and corpse dumped in a canal, after confirming he was a Night's Watch deserter.
  
• She also was the initiator of, and, along Jaqen H'ghar, Rorge and Biter, took part in the killing of eight Harrenhal jailors, an event that would be remembered as the "weasel soup", from the nickname she then used.
  

Source

Well, I haven't seen too many discussions on Arya and her killings (Yes, i saw a few... but they weren't like this). So what do you think about arya? Personally, I think shes awesome.

Do not quote this unless you want to copy a huge lump of text.

[dylan]

I love Arya, she really grew on me more and more as the books progressed. Her killings are great to me because it makes her a much more interesting character. A young girl put in the postions she was in and she has proven to be capable and dangerous to whoever gets in her way. All of her killings either deserved to die or it was neccessary that they die.

[Expat in Naath]

Arya has always been one of my favorite characters. To the best of my memory I've only gotten teary eyed 3 times in my life while reading - and two of those times were while reading Arya chapters.

GRRM once said the hardest for him to write are the younger povs... Well, I think he does a dang good job at it.

[The Gallows Knight]

I've grown to like Arya, though I pretty much ignored her during my first read through.

I dunno she seems to be a really interesting combination of a realistic sad and angry little girl and a badass jr. assassin.

Part of me would like to see her pull back from the edge and part of me would be interested to see what happens if she doesn't. Wouldn't mind if she checks everyone but Ser Ilyn off of her list. I like that guy.

[Mad Monkey]

I'm a little disappointed by her moral decline. For example, I noticed that some of the people crossed off the list did not die by her own hand. Arya's a frickin' kill-stealer. She also demonstrated turpitude by failing to include such villains as the Imp, Theon Greyjoy, and Janos Slynt. These oversights make me increasingly concerned about the direction of Arya's character; if this is the kind of sloppiness we're going to have to deal with regards to her revenge plans, it's going to make her whirlwind of destruction somewhat uneven thematically.

[Breakspear]

I always enjoy Arya's chapters but her morality seems to be completely unlike that of her siblings or parents. I also think she's one of the least thoughtful characters in that she seems to wander from one murder to another like a stag night party on a pub crawl.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the point where she stops to take a breath and gets some unwelcome perspective on who she has become. I hope this happens anyway, I think it would be very unlike GRRM to make her an unstoppable assassin and present that in a good light.

[Manakhkubar]

Personally, I'm looking forward to the point where she stops to take a breath and gets some unwelcome perspective on who she has become. I hope this happens anyway, I think it would be very unlike GRRM to make her an unstoppable assassin and present that in a good light.

Why not? Or, more precisely, what "good light"? We have Arya's PoV, and she definitely believes she does the right thing. She already is a hard to stop assassin. And she still is a little girl, she needed some sort of parents (and soon). (From a pedagogical and developmental psychological point of view, what that Forel did to her put her on the track to hell.)

I personally loved the Arya chapter writing. Really, really good job technically to get into the head of a ten year old. Though I don't like the character both as a character and as a person, but the writing is great.

[Errant Bard]

Arya is a violent, impulsive, intelligent, murderous brat. Her kills denote the traumatising path she'been on, her inclination to kill first and discuss later, and a bend that makes her worse than Catelyn already, but could make her worse than Jaqen and Sandor in the end.

As a character, she is awesome, a great take on the wandering hero archetype, and a nice deviation in the end in not shying from making the "assassin" of your band of heroes actually be a real assassin, moral questions and all included. She is a total mary sue, of course, but for that murderous, loner, authoritarian, contrary streak, that's the deviation lending her some interest. The most interesting is that she knows that what she did isn't good, she even wonders if her own mother would accept to take her in now that she has blood on her hands, but she discarded those doubts and she really does crave power to kill, without feeling any remorse about her actions.

Making her into that shady character is what's interesting. Martin doesn't really present people in a good or bad light, we had Cersei chapters, getting a PoV is not getting sympathetic, and we just have to look at Tyrion to see an utter jerkass. The interesting thing will be to see the readers who judge by the acts, and those who judge from the inner dialogue. After all even serial killer have some justifications in their heads, and often a bad childhood. Not holding my breath too much considering how much Jaqen is liked, but heh.

A few remarks, also:

1) Replying to a post only copies what's not inside "quote" tags, and even if it did, surely people would intelligent enough to see it, so your warning is unnecessary. Example:

Source

Well, I haven't seen too many discussions on Arya and her killings (Yes, i saw a few... but they weren't like this). So what do you think about arya? Personally, I think shes awesome.

Do not quote this unless you want to copy a huge lump of text.

2) These are no spoilers, "spoilers" unqualified is reserved for ADWD spoilers. If you still want to persist in warning that you're discussing all the books published, please, when you use the word "spoiler", indicate for what books these spoilers are. It's annoying to never know if it's someone who thinks that what's talked about in 99% of the forum's threads can still be labelled spoilers, or if if it's someone who equates speculation to spoilers, or if it's genuine spoilers for the unpublished books. Good thing the latter option tends to be rare and a bit more in your face, so I can ignore the other vague "spoiler" warnings.

3) The second line of the title does not show on the mobile skin for the forum, so if you ever put a real spoiler warning, put it in the title itself, in caps, but only if it's "ADWD SPOILERS".

[Breakspear]

Why not? Or, more precisely, what "good light"?

I guess I should clarify; I mean that it would be a cliche to have her depicted as the heroic fantasy assassin. I believe that she won't be unscathed by her experiences and there is no happy ending on the cards for Arya.

I agree about the writing though, some of my favourite chapters are Arya POVs.

[The SmilingKnight]

Arya is great.

She painfully clearly presents what extreme violence and war do to people, to a child.

And while, if she was a boy she would be applauded all around, because she is a girl who dares to actually take action instead of just folding down and crying for help - she is pronounced psychotic by some - which is very funny and ironic.

And more than anything she isnt just choosing freely, she has her choices removed from her. She is forced to go through events she did, which underlines one of the major themes of the books of events being greater than individuals.

Of human fragility. Of enduring through and coping with most horrendous acts, then getting literally broken - of getting all the reasons and excuses to turn into a monster and then...

[Tb0ne]

Expat in Naath

Couldn't agree more, the younger pov's are so well written that I almost don't believe that it was difficult for him (even though he said otherwise).

Why not? Or, more precisely, what "good light"? We have Arya's PoV, and she definitely believes she does the right thing. She already is a hard to stop assassin. And she still is a little girl, she needed some sort of parents (and soon). (From a pedagogical and developmental psychological point of view, what that Forel did to her put her on the track to hell.)

I personally loved the Arya chapter writing. Really, really good job technically to get into the head of a ten year old. Though I don't like the character both as a character and as a person, but the writing is great.

I'm curious what you mean by this.. are you suggesting that Forel was wrong to teach her to his philosophy and water dancing?

Without the war it seems as though a lot of what he was teaching would have helped Arya.

[evanesco75]

Great thread! I've been literally counting the list, as well as the names of the ones actually dead/killed in my head every night before I sleep these days! Of all these layered, complex characters Arya is by far my favourite. She makes me chuckle and shake my head, sigh and gasp at once.

I just think everything she's been through has exacerbated certain inherent characteristics of hers, and she's a sort of pared down version of herself: thinking of basics like survival, judging the world and her own actions by a very simple, brutal philosophy (an eye for an eye, or perhaps an entire body for an eye, even). She's ruthless; despit spending time with The Hound, getting an insight into his weakness (fear of fire), and even not really being mistreated by him (he was rough with her, but occasionally spoke to her as an equal, and he didn't abandon her at The Twins), she didn't cross him off her list. Instead, she refrained from showing him mercy when she left him, and her words made it clear she felt he didn't 'deserve the gift of mercy.' This shows she's very rigid (as children can be), and once she's decided, it's very difficult to change her mind.

I see the point of her not getting a typical happy ending after all she's done; yet, with GRRM's non traditional take on things, he may even give her a not-horrible just-desserts sort of ending either.

I think Arya represents the side of us that thrills in flouting conventional rules, and glories in revenge and violence simply because she doesn't really question the morality of her own actions at all: I don't know whether she's convinced she's right, or whether the whole issue of right/wrong is just ignored by her.

[Errant Bard]

And while, if she was a boy she would be applauded all around

Bullshit. Even Jon is not lauded for going through people, like with Qorin, and he is actually liked when he spares people, like the old man at Queenscrown, or Ygritte. He even himself bloody angst about it when he's sent assassinating Mance. And we could talk about Jaime and the things he does for love, or what Tyrion does to bards, or what Ned does not do to enemies... Or inversely, what Brienne does to bloody mummers and other scum in self-defense, being cheered on to the point people want her to kill Catelyn next.

So, lay off the strawman, it's not about gender, it's about being an assassin.

[evanesco75]

Assassins are cool. :cool4:

Not in RL, but they're definitely great fun to read about.

[Rinso]

Just one thing - Sandor Clegane wasn't removed from the list because they traveled together, it's because she believes he's dead. She never stopped hating him, in fact, IIRC, she hoped he'd get eaten alive by the rampant wolfpacks in the Riverlands after she left him wounded and feverish.

As for what I think about Arya... I dunno. I was never into thus huge shitload of love she gets from the fans, but I never hated her either. I think she's one of the most interesting POVs, even if she's not one of my favorite persons in the books. I find it remarkable that she was able to survive so far, cause after all she's just a little girl; I mean, sure, she's strong willed, quick on her feet and bright enough, but come on, she spent two books in a freaking war zone and got out of absurdly dangerous situations.

When her future is concerned, I tend to think that she saw way too much in a way too tender age. She's, what, 10 years old, and saw her father getting beheaded, people being brutally killed in fights, people getting tortured to death, women being gangraped, she killed people and (somewhat unwittingly) had people killed at her behest, and now she's in the hands of a death cult. Where do you think that's leading? I don't forsee a bright, goody future for Arya.

[Manakhkubar]

I'm curious what you mean by this.. are you suggesting that Forel was wrong to teach her to his philosophy and water dancing?

Without the war it seems as though a lot of what he was teaching would have helped Arya.

Well, I don't know about Westerosis, but to "terrestrial" human beings this kind of training before the age of 12 is just bad. Forel teaches her as if she would be an adolescent or adult with all their mental capacit (and maybe in Westeros, she is - it seems that aging there is different from "our" development process).

Of course, her training becomes handy when confronted with, well, you know ...

When her future is concerned, I tend to think that she saw way too much in a way too tender age. She's, what, 10 years old, and saw her father getting beheaded, people being brutally killed in fights, people getting tortured to death, women being gangraped, she killed people and (somewhat unwittingly) had people killed at her behest, and now she's in the hands of a death cult. Where do you think that's leading? I don't forsee a bright, goody future for Arya.

Seeing all that might have been traumatizing, but would be still curable. But she learned to cope with that in a way that would do irreparable damage to her if she was a child in our world.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

For a while I figured she would make it to Riverrun and their comfortable space would allow her to return from the abyss... now, she has travelled further down that path, and some of her closest family is gone. Can Nymeria, Sansa, Jon, and possibly Bran or Rickon, remind Arya that she has not always been a murderer?

[The SmilingKnight]

Bullshit.

You should know bard, youre full of it.

Even Jon is not lauded for going through people, like with Qorin, and he is actually liked when he spares people, like the old man at Queenscrown, or Ygritte.

He even himself bloody angst about it when he's sent assassinating Mance.

And we could talk about Jaime and the things he does for love, or what Tyrion does to bards, or what Ned does not do to enemies... Or inversely, what Brienne does to bloody mummers and other scum in self-defense, being cheered on to the point people want her to kill Catelyn next.

This IS bullshit.

None of these character apart from Jaime, who is intentionally made to look more villainous at first, was ever so "attacked", especially by your high nosed self.

None of them had gone through what this little girl did either.

Not to mention that martin does not alow reader to get into that comfortable judging /making excuses position for any of his characters - which is the usual trope in fantasy - and about which i WAS talking about.

So, lay off the strawman, it's not about gender, it's about being an assassin.

Its an opinnion, not a strawman, strawman.

I dont see you and your ilk going around accusing anyone else of being a psychopath, insane, dark, without morals, a brat or any other bullshit you usually spew about Arya.

She is not an assassin either.

If anything, Martin is trying to show something very complicated through her. By creating such a horrible destiny for her and then juxtaposing her unique character to it.

And all you (and many others) see and talk about is simplistic shallow Arya the evil psychopath assassin bullshit.

[Turgon]

Just one thing - Sandor Clegane wasn't removed from the list because they traveled together, it's because she believes he's dead.

IIRC she removes him from her list earlier. She wonders herself why she has left him out.

When her future is concerned, I tend to think that she saw way too much in a way too tender age. She's, what, 10 years old, and saw her father getting beheaded, people being brutally killed in fights, people getting tortured to death, women being gangraped, she killed people and (somewhat unwittingly) had people killed at her behest, and now she's in the hands of a death cult. Where do you think that's leading? I don't forsee a bright, goody future for Arya.

Good summary.

Perhaps she becomes Cersei's Nemesis from the prophecy.

[Tara1189]

Arya is great to read about, but boy does she scare the shit out of me. Sometimes I find it hard to remember that a freaking ten year old is doing these things. She's become so desensitized to killing and violence that it often seems like I'm reading about someone twice her age. Her transition from fun-loving tomboy to cold-blooded killer is shocking and awful and scary.

What is especially worrying is the harsh environment she's been forced to adapt to without any parents or guardians means that her moral compass is totally screwed up. It's especially apparent considering that killing is fast becoming an 'easy' solution to her problems as opposed to a last resort. There's a chilling moment when Gendry discovers her secret and Arya calmly wonders whether she's going to have to kill him (and quite clearly would have, had it seemed he was going to betray her secret). I haven't read the books in a while, so I would appreciate if someone could give me the reference, but isn't there also a moment with an old woman that she considers killing?

Also, the nature of her killings has taken on a rather sinister aspect. In my mind, there's a world of difference between stabbing someone in a blind panic when cornered and calmly slitting a man's throat in a back alley and dumping the body in a canal.

I can't see her story ending well. Possibly Jon is the only person who might be able to get through the internalised defences she's built up around herself, but who knows? Deep down, Arya's just a scared little girl who's been thrown into a fucked-up situation and has had to adapt to survive. Sansa wouldn't have lasted two days outside Kings Landing. But while Sansa goes to sleep praying for her family and hoping they're alright, Arya goes to sleep reciting the names of all the people she's going to murder.