What do you feel about Arya and her...

[madking]

I tend to dissagree with those who say killing the guard at Harrenhall was unneccessary she couldn't very well fight him she's a ten year old girl! And it was the only sure way to get out. However quiping "all men must die" in Valarian as she watches him bleed to death is a tad cold.

[Errant Bard]

Our society might emphasize standing up for yourself, but just flat out killing people for [insert reason] is not tolerated. However, it is tolerated in Westeros, which has substantially less consequence related to violent crime.

Depends on where you look. Half the african countries rulers actually killed their predecessors, and child soldiers hail from our world, too. Children from countries war torn all their life still end up scarred.

[Patrick Tully]

I tend to dissagree with those who say killing the guard at Harrenhall was unneccessary she couldn't very well fight him she's a ten year old girl! And it was the only sure way to get out. However quiping "all men must die" in Valarian as she watches him bleed to death is a tad cold.

Except she doesn't know what the words mean at that point.

[madking]

Even though she doesn't know what it means it still comes off a bit harsh I can almost picture her adding motherfucker after it like in a bruce willis movie this girl is jaded.

[Axon]

Depends on where you look. Half the african countries rulers actually killed their predecessors, and child soldiers hail from our world, too. Children from countries war torn all their life still end up scarred.

True, good call.

[TrueMetis]

Daeron deserted the Night Watch. And as a Stark, she knows that NW deserters have a death sentence placed on them. You can argue about whether it is right to kill a NW deserter when he is not in Westeros, but I think she actually is reasonable in killing him. While Daeron didn't have any profit for her, it is morally correct for Starks to kill NW deserters.

A) She's 11 B) She's in Bravos and C) She at this point is not a Stark, She's cat of the Canals. She even try's to say Arya did it not her. This of course doesn't go over so well with the faceless men.

The kill that I feel was the most unreasonable, was when she killed the guard at Harrenhal. She could have tried to knock him unconscious, and then if he fought back, I wouldn't have felt as bad about her killing him.

Has George ever used the knocked unconscious thing in these books? Because it actually doesn't work.

[Solitae]

I tend to dissagree with those who say killing the guard at Harrenhall was unneccessary she couldn't very well fight him she's a ten year old girl! And it was the only sure way to get out. However quiping "all men must die" in Valarian as she watches him bleed to death is a tad cold.

I saw her saying 'Valar morghulis' as a final prayer for his soul. Remember, Arya doesn't pray to any gods by this point, so it seems to me like someone else saying an apologetic blessing/prayer to the Seven or the Old Gods. True, she doesn't know what it means, but she associates it with death and Jaqen. At that point, those were her 'magic words'.

[Jons_Ghost]

She reminds me of Hit Girl from Kickass!

[Silverx2]

people complaining and saying shes a serial killer, really? seriously?

aside from a couple of kills Arya has been justified in every kill she has made. the guard at harranhal and the stable boy are the only two where she may have acted prematurely, but lets look at the situation

Roose Bolton eventually turned on her brother, and would have killed her if he found out she was a stark, but she didnt know this, all she knew is she needed to get away and fast, could she have gotten out without killing the guard? maybe, but she wouldnt of been able to take her friends with her.

The stable boy was during the destruction of the starks at kings landing, if she doesnt kill the stableboy she becomes a prisoner. killing him saved her life more then likely as Joff hated arya, and we all know what he does to people he doesnt like.

all her other kills were justified, and as such were not murder. Jon gets lauded for letting people live, the man in the cabin did nothing to jon, he was captured by the wildlings and to be executed for the reason of not being a wildling. its not like that old guy was going to turn jon over to the lanisters for a fat reward, he was just trying to stay dry. Then you have ygritte jon couldnt bring himself it execute a girl, looking at the society women are rarely warriors in the civil part of the world, its one of those situations where you have the whole "would you hit a girl?" questions, jon wouldnt at that moment his life was not in danger, it was after the scuffle ended, if it had been a full on fight and she came at him with a weapon there is no doubt he would have cut her down.

Arya's kill on darion is similar to eddards kill of the NW deserter. Darion deserted, by westeros law he is to be killed. Arya did what she felt was right according to the law of the lands.

in regards to people no on her list, theon and janos. Arya doesnt know anything about the part they have played. Arya does not know that theon "killed" bran and rickson. Arya also doesnt know that Janos helped capture her father. so you cant really say shes being sloppy when she doesnt have all of the information.

[Loras]

Arya's kill on darion is similar to eddards kill of the NW deserter. Darion deserted, by westeros law he is to be killed. Arya did what she felt was right according to the law of the lands

To my mind Arya is one of the most unsympathetic characters in the series. She has very quickly lost the sense of morality that signifies her as a Stark. While it can be argued that it is her situation that has moulded her character, and I happily take on board those arguments, I don't think of her situation as an excuse for her to murder people.

Particularly with the Daeron example, Arya crosses a line for me. She didn't need to kill him, he had done no wrong to her personally, he didn't appear on her list. Whoever described her as a vigilante is absolutely correct. Daeron perhaps challenged Arya's world view at that moment, as a Stark, maybe she should have executed the deserter. Yet, she didn't perform an execution, she murdered him in cold blood. Contrast that to Eddard beheading Gared, he is made aware of his crime and told why he must die. Arya does none of this.

At this point in the novel, Arya doesn't even identify herself as 'Arya' but as 'Cat'. Her story is about identity, or the loss of identity. Perhaps GRRM's intention was to show that Cat still had connection to the North, instead I took this to show Arya's disregard for human life. As Cat it was not her place to determine whether Daeron should live or die, yet she took his life anyway. Then, even more concerning she blamed the death on 'Arya', a totally different persona.

This murder, for there is no better word, and her growing disregard for life, her lack of morality and responsibility has led me to the conclusion, as a reader, that, for me, Arya cannot be redeemed.

That being said, her journey to this point has been an engaging and heart wrenching read.

[Silverx2]

This murder, for there is no better word, and her growing disregard for life, her lack of morality and responsibility has led me to the conclusion, as a reader, that, for me, Arya cannot be redeemed.

That being said, her journey to this point has been an engaging and heart wrenching read.

But its not murder.

He said his oath and gave his life to the night watch, Arya killed him because he broke is oath.

Breaking the night watches oath is a death sentence, Darion knew that but he thought he was out of the reach of the nightwatch.

Arya served swift justice upon him. she didn't drag it out, she did torture him. All of Aryas kills have been clean and quick. its really amazing when you think about it, if she was really as "evil" or "murderous" as you all say she is she would probably be a little more perverse in her killing. She doesn't kill because she enjoys it, She kills because it what she needs to do to survive, and from everything she has witnessed shes completely right about that.

once she goes all "Saw" on people then we might have issues.

[Loras]

He said his oath and gave his life to the night watch, Arya killed him because he broke is oath.

While I don't disagree with the fact that Daeron was an oath breaker and therefore deserved to be executed, I do disagree that it is Arya's or in this case Cat's duty to perform the execution. To use a crude example, in some states murder is a capital offense, that does not mean it is okay for a citizen of that state to murder a murderer. Equally Cat isn't from the north, she is a Braavosi urchin, therefore has no right to be dispensing justice on Daeron's crime anyway.

Arya served swift justice upon him. she didn't drag it out, she did torture him. All of Aryas kills have been clean and quick. its really amazing when you think about it, if she was really as "evil" or "murderous" as you all say she is she would probably be a little more perverse in her killing. She doesn't kill because she enjoys it, She kills because it what she needs to do to survive, and from everything she has witnessed shes completely right about that.

You contradict yourself here, Arya does not kill Daeron because she needs to do it in order to survive. She does it mainly because she WANTS to kill him, she is not justified in doing so at all.

[Alexia]

The laws of Westeros do not hold sway in Braavos, in order to bring Darion to justice the lord of Winterfell would have to request that Braavos turn him over for such. If the LoW sailed to Braavos with the intention of killing a wanted criminal in the streets and stealing his boots, not only would it be a violation of Braavosi sovereignty but it would also be murder.

Arya Stark is neither lord nor lady of Winterfell. She is not a representative of the ruling lord, she has not been imbued with any sort of judicial power by any ruling body, and she is currently a fugitive from her "legal" guardians without any sort of legal autonomy due to not yet having reached the age of legal majority. Therefore, killing Darion was murder on her part. Not only murder, but also armed robbery. That would cause a huge diplomatic incident if she and her identity were uncovered by the local rulers.

[Silverx2]

While I don't disagree with the fact that Daeron was an oath breaker and therefore deserved to be executed, I do disagree that it is Arya's or in this case Cat's duty to perform the execution. To use a crude example, in some states murder is a capital offense, that does not mean it is okay for a citizen of that state to murder a murderer. Equally Cat isn't from the north, she is a Braavosi urchin, therefore has no right to be dispensing justice on Daeron's crime anyway.

You contradict yourself here, Arya does not kill Daeron because she needs to do it in order to survive. She does it mainly because she WANTS to kill him, she is not justified in doing so at all.

"cat" didn't kill daeron, Arya of house stark did. go back and read what she tells the old man.

She is justified, He is an oath breaker, Westeros law says that if you find an oath breaker they are to be executed, or brought to a lord/lady to be executed.

Arya of house stark is a Lady of Winterfell, as such she was well within her rights to kill him.

[Silverx2]

The laws of Westeros do not hold sway in Braavos, in order to bring Darion to justice the lord of Winterfell would have to request that Braavos turn him over for such. If the LoW sailed to Braavos with the intention of killing a wanted criminal in the streets and stealing his boots, not only would it be a violation of Braavosi sovereignty but it would also be murder.

Arya Stark is neither lord nor lady of Winterfell. She is not a representative of the ruling lord, she has not been imbued with any sort of judicial power by any ruling body, and she is currently a fugitive from her "legal" guardians. Therefore, killing Darion was murder on her part. Not only murder, but also armed robbery. That would cause a huge diplomatic incident if she and her identity were uncovered by the local rulers.

Lol, this isnt an episode of CSI: miami. Bravos has laws as well, if you carry your sword at night, it means you allow yourself to be challenged to a fight. who is to say daeron wasn't wearing his sword that night?

Arya took his boots because she needed them, but that has nothing to do why she killed him. Arya has not "legal guardian" the lanisters had both her parents killed, her aunt is dead, her only hope is her uncle edmure, and her grandfather(?) the blackfish. saying the lannisters are her legal guardians is one of these dumbest things i have ever read. captors is more like it.

[Lannister Lion]

...she really does crave power to kill, without feeling any remorse about her actions.

My bold.

EB, whilst I agree with most of what you've said about Arya, I was curious as to why you think that she craves power to kill. Do you mean indiscrimately? Or do you mean the power to kill people on her list or for survival? As far as I can remember, she has not killed indiscrimately (perhaps except Daeron).

[Breakspear]

Imagine if Ned was in Arya's place; he is alone in Braavos and comes across a NW deserter.

Can anyone honestly say they can see Ned slitting a stranger's throat in an alley and calling it justice? It wouldn't happen.

[Vuron]

Imagine if Ned was in Arya's place; he is alone in Braavos and comes across a NW deserter.

Can anyone honestly say they can see Ned slitting a stranger's throat in an alley and calling it justice? It wouldn't happen.

Nope. Good 'ole Ned would have expected Daeron to kneel in front of him to let himself be beheaded and then acted all shocked and shaken when Daeron stabbed him in the gut.

[Errant Bard]

EB, whilst I agree with most of what you've said about Arya, I was curious as to why you think that she craves power to kill. Do you mean indiscrimately? Or do you mean the power to kill people on her list or for survival?

Neither. She just craves power. To be a wolf, not a mouse, nor a crying child in the rain. That's her way to cope: to dish out instead of receiving, to be in control, to act and hurt. Her list I see as utterly meaningless beyond being a way to focus her will and not crumble. I guess you could say that indeed she wants power to kill indiscriminately, because that means being a kind of Nymeria -stronger than anyone-, but that does not mean she wants to kill indiscriminately.

Nope. Good 'ole Ned would have expected Daeron to kneel in front of him to let himself be beheaded and then acted all shocked and shaken when Daeron stabbed him in the gut.

Yes, the dark alley thing is more something you expect out of slimy types like Bronn, Ramsey Bolton or Gregor Clegane, that's true.

[Patrick Tully]

The laws of Westeros do not hold sway in Braavos, in order to bring Darion to justice the lord of Winterfell would have to request that Braavos turn him over for such. If the LoW sailed to Braavos with the intention of killing a wanted criminal in the streets and stealing his boots, not only would it be a violation of Braavosi sovereignty but it would also be murder.

Arya Stark is neither lord nor lady of Winterfell. She is not a representative of the ruling lord, she has not been imbued with any sort of judicial power by any ruling body, and she is currently a fugitive from her "legal" guardians without any sort of legal autonomy due to not yet having reached the age of legal majority. Therefore, killing Darion was murder on her part. Not only murder, but also armed robbery. That would cause a huge diplomatic incident if she and her identity were uncovered by the local rulers.

Armed robbery? Did she threaten him with harm, demand his boots, and then kill him in the struggle?