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Stark famliy dynamics


Lord Varys

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While rereading the first book recently, I really got concerned that many of the Stark developments and plot points will make less or no sense at all due to the older children. I must say I have come to like the fact that many protagonists are still children/youths, especially Dany's and Jon's story would not work as well if they were much older (at least not without making a rewrite necessary)

First there is Robb:

- Robb is a 14-year-old boy. He is not being ready to be Lord of Winterfell, nor does he want to take up Ned's mantle yet. He is forced to do so, and this is slow process starting with Cat mad grief period and ending with him being made King (he did not want that, it seems, but had no other choice). Richard Madden certainly does not look like 14, and not like 17 years either. 17 year old adults (or near-adults, if guys in the series are only grown up at 18) are not as unsure as 14 year old boys, so the whole thing about 'Robb's lordly face' and the touching scene in Bran's bedroom were too young boys, Bran and Robb, are feeling young, helpless, and alone is no longer making that much sense, if you ask me.

- Things between Cat and Robb cannot be as they are in the books either. When they meet again, Robb has to be older still, maybe he is even already 18 then, a man grown, and thus beyond Cat's direct control. She would not be able to send him back home, even she wanted to. As we already know that Cat is more of a hose wife, maybe even somewhat of a Lysa 2.0, being afraid of the Lannisters, and of being left alone, I totally can see the 'conflict' here becoming fearful Catelyn wanting her son to make peace, to go home etc. whereas Robb is totally determined to go to war.

- Bran's own story line should worked aged up as well as it does originally, as should Sansa's and Arya's.

Jon is another matter, though:

Jon Snow is also a 14-year-old boy, and he very much so. He is smarter than Robb (does not trust Theon Greyjoy, has an eye for subtleties Robb overlooks - Gared being afraid instead of courageous), but he is still a boy. He is easily pissed off by this whole bastard thing, he deceives himself about the Night's Watch (one should assume that a 17-year-old should know more about the NW than the 14-year-old Jon knows in AGoT), and he very much acts and behaves like an adolescent during most parts of the books. For example he

- is unable/unwilling to immerse himself in his fellow trainees for the NW until Donal Noye explains things for him. This is very much adolescent behavior, his thoughts only revolving around himself.

- has sudden mood swings - when he hears Bran has awoken, his brooding days are suddenly over, and he makes friends.

- attacking Alliser Throne after he mocks Ned as a traitor is also more the rash action of an adolescent

- even leaving the NW after Ned is kill seems to be nothing an older man would do, especially as even Jon sees that not even Robb would approve of it in the end...

I'm really not sure that this is going to work with characters aged up.

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Eh, most of your points revolve around the fact that a 14 year old is dumber and more emotional than a 17 year old. In my experience, that's actually not the case. They're both equally inexperienced. :3

For the boys, at least. The age problem with the girls is another matter, though. Especially Arya. I have this fear where later on Arya is supposed to be going undercover as a boy in her travels, and then she suddenly grows this giant pair of boobs. That would really mess things up. :|

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I think not actually being inside Jon's head may help, at least in terms of mood swings. And even at 17, he has been a relatively spoiled son of one of the greatest lords in the kingdom his whole life... But I do agree, if they aren't careful Jon's character does have the potential to play kinda unsympathetically.

I actually think the age-up could be a problem for Sansa as well, a lot of readers despise Sansa for being naive at 11, and even I think her behavior in GoT would be pushing it for a 13 year old.

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Yes, I don't see much of a problem with Jon. He didn't just join the NW because he was young, he joined it because he wanted to find his own way in the world. A 17 year old is even more likely to do that than a 14 year old. And I can easily see a 17 year old thinking he is elite and better than the other recruits. While plenty 30 somethings would react badly to their father been accused of been a traitor, never mind a teenager. And he did change his mind on leaving the NW, so that isn't an issue either.

Robb is more challenging. I still think HBO can show how much he is suddenly shouldering though. And presumably he will be still 17 when he meets up with Catelyn again. And afterwards, a similar dynamic to the books can arise.

I'm not sure what a "hose" wife is though. And Cat doesn't compare to Lysa. She only started to oppose the war when Ned was killed.

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I think some of the Stark kids' quirks and mistakes (Robb's and Sansa's mostly) will be less flattering on older characters, and particularly I don't think that the kids look as young as the show is going to claim them to be. If I were to guess I would say Sophie and Richard are a few years older than 13 and 17, respectively. We'll have to wait and see how it plays out. As for Jon, he'll be okay, because the point of Jon's story is that he learns. His personality problems are pretty episodic and disappear in short order without long-lasting importance. His learning to put aside his castle-bred heirs will probably be a pretty blatant Aesop of episode 3 or 4 or so. Arya's ability to pass off as a boy, it'll be interesting how they manage that. With costuming and make-up it could work, I would want to believe. Bran will be fine.

And Cat doesn't compare to Lysa. She only started to oppose the war when Ned was killed.

Cat was dreading war from the start. Robb marched when she wasn't there to stop him, and she questioned why he had to go to Riverrun at all. Her opposition merely ratcheted up once Ned died because it was a clear opportunity to call a ceasefire.

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Yes. Pretty sure the Sansa actress is pretty close in age to the character. She probably will be disliked by some for been naive. But I think a 13 year old can be as naive as a 11 year old. And she gets a rude awakening at the end of the GoT, so its not an ongoing issue. I always found her mistakes quite believeable anyhow. As long as they show she is enchanted with the idea of Joffrey, they can get away with her actions.

Cat was dreading war from the start. Robb marched when she wasn't there to stop him, and she questioned why he had to go to Riverrun at all.

Anyone should dread war. And she didn't support the choice of Robb to lead it but i'm pretty sure she didn't oppose the war until Ned's death.

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Robb was at least holding his own in the war, if not winning it. His fatal mistake was not smelling the Frey ambush. It's too bad everyone was so intimidated by Tywin Lannister, because if Robb had the Iron Islands I think he would have taken everything. A 15 year old king is believable, provided he has appropriate counsel, as Robb did.

Other kids are believable with some caveats. I've actually gone back and read the early portion of GoT and found Jon to be very annoying compared to the more mature, later character. The scene where he swears to Benjen he will never father a bastard is particularly eye rolling.

Bran is a little hard to swallow at 8 or whatever.

Rickon is just purely obnoxious.

Sansa is very believable. With no exposure to the backstabbing politics of King's Landing, she learns the hard way.

Arya is just a fun character and probably the second most intelligent compared to Jon. She gets a little crazy, as well all know.

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It's too bad everyone was so intimidated by Tywin Lannister, because if Robb had the Iron Islands I think he would have taken everything.

Robb was always in trouble once the Tyrells became allies of the Lannisters. The numbers were against him. I always thought that was the biggest factor in his demise.

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Robb was always in trouble once the Tyrells became allies of the Lannisters. The numbers were against him. I always thought that was the biggest factor in his demise.

Had Uncle Dolt (Tully Version) not mucked things up, this would never have happened. So I'd say that Robb's biggest mistake was not explaining his full role in the plan to Edmure, using small words and pointed gestures. Even if Edmure's blabbering had somehow fallen on the wrong ears, it's not like it was a secret to Lord Tywin in the first place. Tywin had to know full well that Robb was harrying the west to draw Tywin away from King's Landing and Stannis. Robb had forced Tywin's hand. Edmure screwed the pooch on that one. KL being burned and sacked by Stannis might have been enough to make the Late Lord Frey close the Twins but NOT work with the Lannisters and Bolton.

Bringing this back to the actual topic, I think that Robb plays just fine at his age. I'd not trust an 18 year old king any more than a 15 year old one. Both are still pups in my mind. In a modern setting, a grown man would be almost equally reluctant to follow either.

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When we hopefully get S2, I hope they explain Robb's orders to Edmure a bit better. Or actually, a better way would be having Catelyn tell Edmure that Robb told him not to engage Tywin. But Edmure retorts that he is sure that he can win! (And even if they lose, they plan to fall back to Riverrun, so no harm really).

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Yes. Pretty sure the Sansa actress is pretty close in age to the character.

That's true, and in about half her pictures she looks it. In another half she seems more 15 or 16 to me, but it could really be a matter of the angle, etc. Sansa will probably be fine.

I think the show's approach to Robb in general is a wildcard. He's one character a lot of people have been clamoring for more airtime for, considering him something of a shoulda-been-a-POV, so it'll be interesting to see how HBO plays it.

And she didn't support the choice of Robb to lead it but i'm pretty sure she didn't oppose the war until Ned's death.

Well, she barely had an opportunity to. She never liked the idea from the minute she learned of Robb's presence at Moat Cailin, but she went along with it to save face for Robb, and at that time Ned was still alive and Riverrun in jeopardy. When that entire situation changed, she had a more feasible chance to make her case (and so tried, by presenting herself in the only way that the bannermen would credit). Clearly it's more complicated than "War is fine, oh wait no now I'm grieving so war is no longer fine because I'm sad."

I think Robb's aging up is something the show ought to be aware of, in that it'll make it harder to see how odd it is that Robb is leading an army to war, but hopefully they can get around it somehow. Some reaction shots of Roose Bolton visibly skeptical about the idea, or something. It's hard to speculate specifics given that we don't have much of a peek at that end of the season.

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He's one character a lot of people have been clamoring for more airtime for, considering him something of a shoulda-been-a-POV, so it'll be interesting to see how HBO plays it.

I'm thinking we wouldn't see much of Robb in any S2. I used to think otherwise but given all the stuff they do have to cover, it seems unlikely. Especially because HBO isnot focusing on his character at all in the teasers. So we might see more Jaime and Dany than in aCoK but HBO may be happy to leave out Robb, except via Catelyn. If they do keep Robb in the background, I also wonder will we see the Blackfish in S2. Edmure is the most important of the Tullys. In aCoK anyhow.

Clearly it's more complicated than "War is fine, oh wait no now I'm grieving so war is no longer fine because I'm sad."

Yes. I didn't mean to blame Ned's death itself on her change of view. More that her viewpoint changed around that time. (Because Jaime was captured, Ned died, her daughters were presumed hostages etc). The North could now reflect on its previous position.

I do think they need to remind people a few times that Robb is only 17. Otherwise people might assume he is in his 20s. That would cause confusion. Once people are sure of this age, I think they will buy that it is very young to general an army.

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I hope you're wrong and they do focus more on Robb in season 2 or 3, or his loss won't be nearly as effective for viewers and pack the same punch. In fact, I hoped we'd actually see more of Robb leading battles and such away from Catelyn since the series isn't bound to the point of view chapters, but maybe that'd be too hard to work into the time constraints. Who knows at this point how they'll structure the next seasons if we're lucky enough to get more than one?

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Who knows at this point how they'll structure the next seasons if we're lucky enough to get more than one?

True. I speculate too much. In this case, in aGoT there are 5 major threads, (Winterfell, Dany, the Wall, KL and Catelyn). In aCoK there is all of those 5 plus Stannis and Theon, while Arya has her own thread.

Oh well, hopefully we'll find out in 15 month. :)

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