World of Warcraft

[Solmyr]

ETA: The problem with the above, of course, is that blizzard has no idea what is or isn't great. And since they're changing specs, talents, and abilities all the time to balance and do whatever, they'd have to constantly do a good job with updating what's optimal or write a simulator that accurately simulates these things well. Don't see either happening.

Yes, thats why it's up to the players to find out what's optimum and best. So how can we be dissatisfied when the group of players, known as newbies, who are still learning some of the basic concepts of the game, perform at a sub-optimum level? They aren't even looking to be the best. Try asking some of those 5k dpsers you meet if their goal in WoW is to be 'the best' or they simply want to enjoy the game in their own pace and style.

There is this other group of players, the elitists, who constantly pursue being the best, write huge formulas on excel to calculate haste caps and even create simulationcraft software. Blizz has no incentive to make this for the players the same way they have no incentive to make addons. There are simply too many different playstyles and variety of goals being pursued, they have to allow the fanbase to take care of some. They do implement some fanbase solutions in the game (for example addon functions), but it generally happens rarely and not on the whim of a small group of players.

I hope you realize that the elitists are still a minority in WoW. And hopefully will always be one.

[Inigima]

The problem there is that to succeed at endgame content -- i.e., raiding -- you have to be an elitist. Your guild literally cannot down any given current content tier unless they are at least trying to excel. The only way to "fix" this is to dumb the content down -- which makes the content trivial and pointless for good players -- unless you can find some way to teach the unwashed masses how to be good, and make them want to be good. It is not clear to fme that this situation can be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties. I don't know if it is, literally, possible to write content that satisfies both audiences.

Heroics are another example -- you may remember that when they came out they were a huge cock block for people unless they ran as a guild. People have mostly figured them out now and it is rare for me to not complete a heroic, but there are still really bad players in them and they can still fuck it up. I haven't had many problems, fortunately, but I know I've seen people complain that they have literally never completed heroic Blackrock because there is always someone in their group that can't manage their job with Corla's beams even if it's explained or even if they say they know how it works.

As for asking the "5k DPS" players whether they want to be the best or just have fun, the genre makes that a problem, particularly in current content. I've come around on the difficulty level of heroics -- growing pains are always a problem with new content, I guess -- but at the end of the day, you still have to rely on your group to do their jobs. Unlike in Wrath, where a good tank or healer could literally carry all three bad DPS, DPS matters now, both for their damage and for their interrupts/CCs. The design of the game forces you to rely on other people. But it provides neither the incentive nor the information necessary to make people reliable. You just have to hope they've done their homework.

I really don't think some of you guys understand what it is like to be a new player without skilled friends to give guidance. I've told this story before, but it bears repeating. When I first hit 80 on my rogue, I had leveled from 20-80 as Subtlety. Things died, so I assumed I was fine. I had zero concept of what my damage output was like and it didn't even occur to me to wonder. You absolutely WILL NOT go seek out info on how to be better unless someone prods you into it, because that concept simply will not exist for you. You won't know that that information exists, you won't even know that you want it. I'm struggling to figure out a way to express this clearly and I just don't know how to make it more explicit. It isn't just that you don't know you're bad. You don't even know that being bad is a thing that can happen. You have never been in a position where being bad matters.

EDIT: There's also kind of a divide where being "bad" means different things to different groups. If you're a serious player and you're doing 8k DPS on a boss fight, to you, you're playing like shit. You're still doing better than like 80% of the population. Your "bad day" is so far above the performance of the average player's good day as to defy description.

[Shryke]

I guess you could call the UBRS key sequence a quest line ... you could. How do you actually start the quest? There are four random objects with a low drop scattered around LBRS, none of which indicates in any way that it is related to a quest. The gems are green and rollable, usually provoking everyone in the raid (LBRS was mostly 10manned back then) to roll (only roll/pass existed back then) and the actual winer rarely did anything useful with the gem. The keystone was white, extremely low drop chance per mob and you cannot predict in which loot table it will end up or whether that person will even decide to bend down and loot that mob.

Once you get one of these four treasured heirlooms, you're supposed to figure out that you should go on this terrace at the beginning, which most people have never even visited in the lives or known existed, get very close to some random NPC and wait for a transformation to occur. Then after some talking a quest line starts, indeed.

I think you've forgotten how it all works. You can't even do any of that without first getting the quest from LBRS. You go in there and right as you get into the big open multi-leveled area, there's a guy (disguised dragon technically, Vael specifically as I remember) who gives you the quest to put together the seal of ascension.

[Shryke]

The problem there is that to succeed at endgame content -- i.e., raiding -- you have to be an elitist. Your guild literally cannot down any given current content tier unless they are at least trying to excel. The only way to "fix" this is to dumb the content down -- which makes the content trivial and pointless for good players -- unless you can find some way to teach the unwashed masses how to be good, and make them want to be good. It is not clear to fme that this situation can be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties. I don't know if it is, literally, possible to write content that satisfies both audiences.

Heroics are another example -- you may remember that when they came out they were a huge cock block for people unless they ran as a guild. People have mostly figured them out now and it is rare for me to not complete a heroic, but there are still really bad players in them and they can still fuck it up. I haven't had many problems, fortunately, but I know I've seen people complain that they have literally never completed heroic Blackrock because there is always someone in their group that can't manage their job with Corla's beams even if it's explained or even if they say they know how it works.

As for asking the "5k DPS" players whether they want to be the best or just have fun, the genre makes that a problem, particularly in current content. I've come around on the difficulty level of heroics -- growing pains are always a problem with new content, I guess -- but at the end of the day, you still have to rely on your group to do their jobs. Unlike in Wrath, where a good tank or healer could literally carry all three bad DPS, DPS matters now, both for their damage and for their interrupts/CCs. The design of the game forces you to rely on other people. But it provides neither the incentive nor the information necessary to make people reliable. You just have to hope they've done their homework.

I really don't think some of you guys understand what it is like to be a new player without skilled friends to give guidance. I've told this story before, but it bears repeating. When I first hit 80 on my rogue, I had leveled from 20-80 as Subtlety. Things died, so I assumed I was fine. I had zero concept of what my damage output was like and it didn't even occur to me to wonder. You absolutely WILL NOT go seek out info on how to be better unless someone prods you into it, because that concept simply will not exist for you. You won't know that that information exists, you won't even know that you want it. I'm struggling to figure out a way to express this clearly and I just don't know how to make it more explicit. It isn't just that you don't know you're bad. You don't even know that being bad is a thing that can happen. You have never been in a position where being bad matters.

EDIT: There's also kind of a divide where being "bad" means different things to different groups. If you're a serious player and you're doing 8k DPS on a boss fight, to you, you're playing like shit. You're still doing better than like 80% of the population. Your "bad day" is so far above the performance of the average player's good day as to defy description.

That's what I was trying to say with saying they never thought to try looking for the information. It doesn't occur to people.

The game doesn't force you to do so because it's supposed to be noob friendly.

Which I think is really the point behind the way it's set up right now. They've worked to make stuff clearer in the game but at this point, and especially cause it's an MMO, I think Blizzard has decided that anyone aware enough to ask "What's a good spec?" is capable of doing a quick google search and finding out.

And it's not like they just lean on 3rd party sites. Most class information used to be, and to an extent still is, available on their own forums, which exist for that reason.

[Kalbear]

The problem there is that to succeed at endgame content -- i.e., raiding -- you have to be an elitist. Your guild literally cannot down any given current content tier unless they are at least trying to excel.

HA! But no.

You don't have to be an elitist to be able to raid. If you want to do hardmodes when they're relevant it certainly helps, and it definitely helps if you want to do harder bosses early -but plenty of guilds have no fucking clue what to really do.

I will say that the number of clueless guys you can bring becomes smaller and smaller as you do harder and harder content, but seriously - this stuff isn't super hard. Simply not standing in flames while pressing your 2 key a lot will do enough on many fights.

Unlike in Wrath, where a good tank or healer could literally carry all three bad DPS, DPS matters now, both for their damage and for their interrupts/CCs.

The only reason DPS matters - and it doesn't matter that much - is that healers might run out of mana at some point. I've done plenty of bosses where I and the healer were the only ones alive in heroic content. There are no enrage timers on heroics. You can take as long as you want.

[Shryke]

Right - but nowhere does it say that agility or int or even spirit give you no real bonus. It only tells you what your primary stat is.

And there's no clear definition of 'primary stat'. Sure, we know it's the three str,agi and int - but how does int differentiate from (for example) mastery? Why wouldn't you think that int helps you somewhat on your spells, especially if you're a DK or paladin?

The information is there if you go looking. I'm saying that some assumptions aren't even simple enough to make you want to go looking.

There actually is a pretty clear definition (except in like Outland where gear is still fucked up).

Gear always has 1 and only 1 primary stat, stam and a bunch of green stats (with the exception of spirit which should really be switched to a green stat). There's a pretty clear definition of primary stat: Not Green

Picking up another primary stat always involved taking a piece without strength. Which means removing a piece with what the game tells you, repeatedly, is your "Primary Stat".

[Kalbear]

Picking up another primary stat always involved taking a piece without strength. Which means removing a piece with what the game tells you, repeatedly, is your "Primary Stat".

Right, Shryke, but that doesn't imply that other primary stats are 'bad' or don't do anything for you. Again, why wouldn't it make sense to make your spells hit harder to get some int? Sure, it might not be strength, but does the game tell you reasonably that (for example) an ilvl 316 item with strength is better than an ilvl 359 item without it? Does it tell you how much better your abilities get if you use int or strength?

There just isn't that feedback. There's nothing saying that primary stat X is good but primary stat Y literally does nothing for you in that class and spec. At least not in the game. In the example above, the DK actively thanked me for telling him that these pieces of gear were bad for him and that he wants only strength. He had no idea. And he wasn't a bad player or anything like that - he just hadn't gone out and explored outside of the actual game. I'm not so sure that's an atypical thing; do people do a lot of exploring out of farmville? Because WoW is a lot closer to Farmville than it is Madden.

[TerraPrime]

That's what I was trying to say with saying they never thought to try looking for the information. It doesn't occur to people.

I guess.

That seems just alien to me. When I played my first toon, a hunter, I was curious about how what I was doing stacked up to what other hunters were doing, even during leveling. Am I using these skills correctly? How do these trap things work? Is there a difference in which pet I use? This skill seems really useless, am I missing something? Plus, even just standing around Org or SW, you can inspect others with shiny gear and see their spec and gear itemization. Look, tons of paladin in prot specs have a mixture of dodge/mastery, yet here I am, using all stam. I've also gotten random questions from strangers about spec and gear, because they were inspecting and noticed something that they don't do themselves, e.g. someone asked me why I used intel and haste, and not intel and crit, on the lock, so I explained what I can and told them about EJ forum.

At any rate, I probably won't even say anything to DPS doing 5k output since most of the time you get a strong dps now who can carry.

[Shryke]

Right, Shryke, but that doesn't imply that other primary stats are 'bad' or don't do anything for you. Again, why wouldn't it make sense to make your spells hit harder to get some int? Sure, it might not be strength, but does the game tell you reasonably that (for example) an ilvl 316 item with strength is better than an ilvl 359 item without it? Does it tell you how much better your abilities get if you use int or strength?

There just isn't that feedback. There's nothing saying that primary stat X is good but primary stat Y literally does nothing for you in that class and spec. At least not in the game. In the example above, the DK actively thanked me for telling him that these pieces of gear were bad for him and that he wants only strength. He had no idea. And he wasn't a bad player or anything like that - he just hadn't gone out and explored outside of the actual game. I'm not so sure that's an atypical thing; do people do a lot of exploring out of farmville? Because WoW is a lot closer to Farmville than it is Madden.

And? This is what I've been saying all along. The game doesn't force you to learn. It didn't force this guy to learn.

But the information was there in game if he'd actually gone looking for it. He just assumed "int good for spells" and never had a second thought about it. (Also, DKs are designed for more experienced players in Blizzard's mind. You are assumed to already know some shit when rolling the class)

And other primary stats are "bad" because, as I said, you have to give up wearing str gear for them. When looking at 2 pieces of gear, you will always be making the choice "Int or Str" and one of those is your primary stat.

[Shryke]

I guess.

That seems just alien to me. When I played my first toon, a hunter, I was curious about how what I was doing stacked up to what other hunters were doing, even during leveling. Am I using these skills correctly? How do these trap things work? Is there a difference in which pet I use? This skill seems really useless, am I missing something? Plus, even just standing around Org or SW, you can inspect others with shiny gear and see their spec and gear itemization. Look, tons of paladin in prot specs have a mixture of dodge/mastery, yet here I am, using all stam. I've also gotten random questions from strangers about spec and gear, because they were inspecting and noticed something that they don't do themselves, e.g. someone asked me why I used intel and haste, and not intel and crit, on the lock, so I explained what I can and told them about EJ forum.

At any rate, I probably won't even say anything to DPS doing 5k output since most of the time you get a strong dps now who can carry.

Oh, I think it's weird too. But it happens. All the time.

You even see it in alot of raider types. Hell, some even go to EJ but then they just copy-paste whatever they get without ever thinking about how it works or why it works and so on.

[Kalbear]

But the information was there in game if he'd actually gone looking for it. He just assumed "int good for spells" and never had a second thought about it. (Also, DKs are designed for more experienced players in Blizzard's mind. You are assumed to already know some shit when rolling the class)

And other primary stats are "bad" because, as I said, you have to give up wearing str gear for them. When looking at 2 pieces of gear, you will always be making the choice "Int or Str" and one of those is your primary stat.

First off, other primary stats aren't bad. Tanks, for instance, are choosing agi necks over strength necks (and other jewelry) because they provide more dodge even though strength is their 'primary' stat.

Second, the question isn't whether given two equivalent ilvl items which to take, it's whether or not you take less of a primary stat over more of another one. Again, the game makes this not clear at all. It's a reasonable idea to take a piece of gear that has tons more health but int instead of strength if you think int has some value. This is the (correct) approach for looking at pvp gear vs pve gear for pve - while pvp gear isn't ideal, it's certainly better than two ilvl ranks below.

Third, there's no feedback to the user that int is bad for a DK or paladin (or rather, that it does nothing for them).

[Inigima]

HA! But no.

You don't have to be an elitist to be able to raid. If you want to do hardmodes when they're relevant it certainly helps, and it definitely helps if you want to do harder bosses early -but plenty of guilds have no fucking clue what to really do.

I will say that the number of clueless guys you can bring becomes smaller and smaller as you do harder and harder content, but seriously - this stuff isn't super hard. Simply not standing in flames while pressing your 2 key a lot will do enough on many fights.

This isn't really true. If your DPS is too low, you will hit Halfus' enrage timer. You will wipe to the soft enrage of puddles on Ascendants' Council. You will wipe on Cho'gall's burn phase, if you don't wipe to bloods and corruption from not getting there fast enough. You will run out of gongs on Atramedes and wipe to Devastation. You will wipe to Maloriak's burn phase. You will wipe to Chimaeron's burn phase.

This goes back to what I was saying -- what is elitist to most WoW players isn't what's elitist to you and me. You will not hit regular Halfus' enrage timer if you have a group of acceptable DPS. But the average WoW player outputs maybe half of what constitutes acceptable DPS to you and me. When you play WoW at a serious raiding level, you lose sight of just how much higher the level of play is for you than it is for most people. Ever had your kid play WoW? Notice how they just mash whatever until things die? That's how the average WoW player plays. That's what I meant when I said "elitist" -- I don't mean Paragon, I mean you and me.

All of this talk about DPS requirements, by the way, does not even begin to take into account the demands of raid mechanics. It's all well and good to talk about staying out of fire, but that isn't always easy, especially when you're also trying to maintain high levels of DPS output. There is a lot of fire to not stand in. Hell, on Atramedes, it chases you.

The only reason DPS matters - and it doesn't matter that much - is that healers might run out of mana at some point. I've done plenty of bosses where I and the healer were the only ones alive in heroic content. There are no enrage timers on heroics. You can take as long as you want.

This is true most of the time if both the tank and the healer are well-geared and skilled. If your DPS are all dead, good luck killing Erudax. Good luck killing Drahga with the flame elementals exploding on you. Good luck killing Ashbury. Good luck killing Ripsnarl without being overwhelmed by vapor. Good luck killing Foe Reaver without the adds being controlled, especially once you hit 40%. Good luck killing Setesh. Good luck killing whatever the second boss of heroic Throne of the Tides is, where the void zones on the floor are permanent and growing.

There is a lot of shit you just cannot kill in Cataclysm without your DPS. This is good, it's about time DPS mattered -- but matter they do.

Please understand that I am not saying content is too hard. What I'm saying is that a group full of people who have not researched how to gear, talent and play their class is not capable of downing it.

[Kalbear]

This isn't really true. If your DPS is too low, you will hit Halfus' enrage timer. You will wipe to the soft enrage of puddles on Ascendants' Council. You will wipe on Cho'gall's burn phase, if you don't wipe to bloods and corruption from not getting there fast enough. You will run out of gongs on Atramedes and wipe to Devastation. You will wipe to Maloriak's burn phase. You will wipe to Chimaeron's burn phase.

Now, sure.

Next tier? Nope.

Tier after? DEFINITELY not.

And that assumes that the entire raid is a bunch of mouthbreathers. 25 man raids in particular can happily do that content with 20% complete bads and meet every single goal. I can't say how bad you'd have to be for 10-mans, but it's probably a bit less lenient. Still, you can be easily carried in normal mode content now. And later on as people's gear improves and things get nerfed, you'll be able to carry even more.

This is true most of the time if both the tank and the healer are well-geared and skilled. If your DPS are all dead, good luck killing Erudax. Good luck killing Drahga with the flame elementals exploding on you. Good luck killing Ashbury. Good luck killing Ripsnarl without being overwhelmed by vapor. Good luck killing Foe Reaver without the adds being controlled, especially once you hit 40%. Good luck killing Setesh. Good luck killing whatever the second boss of heroic Throne of the Tides is, where the void zones on the floor are permanent and growing.

There is a lot of shit you just cannot kill in Cataclysm without your DPS. This is good, it's about time DPS mattered -- but matter they do.

Please understand that I am not saying content is too hard. What I'm saying is that a group full of people who have not researched how to gear, talent and play their class is not capable of downing it.

I've killed Erudax with all DPS dead. I've done Ripsnarl too. The rest that you mention, only the General has an actual enrage. Dragha simply needs one DPS alive, Ashbury doesn't even need that, and Foe Reaver needs to have that thing piloted. None of those things are because you need DPS - hell, you could have any other role be there. Two tanks, one healer? Sure. Two healers one tank? Probably fine.

DPS doesn't matter. Warm bodies do. There's lots of shit in cataclysm that requires warm bodies, but that's like saying you need DPS to down the door boss in ZA. No, you just need 5 people to gong. Who they are or what they can do doesn't really matter.

Now, when everyone had shit for gear that wasn't true - but that's analogous to people doing raid content early. If they want to do it later they can without much issue.