Jon Snow Meets Undead Cat

[D1R3W0LF]

What if Cat were to meet up with Bran and Rickon? I wonder how it would affect her if she found out they were alive or if she somehow met up with them again. Maybe it would calm her and make her more rational if she new they were alive and if they wanted their family back together. They may want to see Jon again and maybe Cat would rethink her stance on him truly being their brother. Also does anyone else think that Jon may be Lyanna's son? I have often wondered if he was and that was Neds Secret and why he would never tell anyone who it really was. I know he made some promise to her as she was dying. I havent gotten through all the books yet so I don't know what other clues may be in there regarding Jons mother. Maybe he is not even Neds Son maybe he is really Lyanna and Roberts? not sure if they ever hooked up before she died but I guess Its possible. Maybe someone could shed some light on these hypothisis for me?

[Reaper]

If she's smart, she'll ask for Jon's help in her plot for revenge. Jon would definitely want to kill anyone that has harmed his brothers and/or sisters.

I know it's not part of his official mandate as Lord Commander, but he could deviate from this if the need arises. Remember that Robb named him the Lord of Winterfell and Stannis also wants him to rule the north.

That or maybe Un-Cat meets him, and is a jealous bitch that tries to kill him (enter Ghost).

It's too hard to predict Un-Cat. Maybe she'll meet Un-Gregor. What would happen then?

Unbabies?

[Lady Winter Rose]

Still, kind of sad, if that is what happened. I don't think he had reason not to trust Catelyn in that. And there wouldn't be much chance that the whole issue would be revealed - nobody cared much for what they did in the North. In fact, one could say that _keeping_ it secret from Catelyn finally meant the death of "someone".

Well, I am not an expert, but if Catelyn have problem with common thought that Jon is Ned's son (i.e. some of nobles and small folk didn't respect her because she allowed Jon Nedson to be in her houshold) then she will probably have break and tell someone. Look Brienne-Cat convesation about Bran/Rickon death. You have no 100% trust about your marriage black spot with someone who probably would have issuses about partenity of your marriage black spot.

[Happy Ent]

[...] and so she is still shamed at having to live under the same roof as the 'bastard.'

Just to make sure: there is no great shame in living under the same roof as a bastard. It’s what nobles do. Bastards are fostered with other families left and right, it’s a completely routine part of the noble society. Many rise to important positions.

[Lady Blackfish]

Assuming R+L=J, I'm in the boat that thinks that Ned ought to have told Catelyn, though it's understandable that he didn't. Sure, she would have probably had a hard time manufacturing resentment for him if she knew he wasn't Ned's bastard, but she could certainly understand the importance of appearances and still kept her distance, if a more truly neutral distance. Plus she would still have an investment in separating Jon's status from her children's because everyone else would be perceiving Jon as a particularly favored bastard and that's still dangerous for her kids. I don't think anyone at Winterfell would be scrutinizing Catelyn's attitude so closely that the would be able to guess R+L=J from it. Most people's appetite for tabloid fodder is satisfied by the N+A=J angle, and only Robert has a particular grudge against Targaryens (and Robert isn't very attentive or clever).

Still, like I said I understand Ned being overly cautious, given the stakes, even though I would've done differently. I think it's a bigger strike against Ned that he never provided Jon a surrogate mother figure, FWIW.

[Happy Ent]

I think it's a bigger strike against Ned that he never provided Jon a surrogate mother figure, FWIW.

Nah. Those children aren’t brought up in middle-class families. Noble children don’t have mother figures in the first place. They’re raised by wetnurses, or commoners like Septa Mordane, and then farmed out.

Ned could have sent Jon to the Flints or Umbers or whatever, just like he’d be expected to. But he probably promised to raise Jon “as if he were your own” or something. It’s necessary for the story. What bugs me is that Jon should know all these things, but is written as if he though he was a stepson.

[Ded As Ned]

... I recall several times Catelyn not even remembering that Jon existed; I think I even remember a line after she finds out that Bran and Rickon were 'killed' that Robb now had no brothers. And she wasn't saying it to somebody else, she was thinking it in her head -- almost as if she had blocked the existence of Jon from her mind...

Cat had the thought "Robb now had no brothers" at a minimum because Jon is a bastard son and not trueborn and not in line to inherit. Robb's only brothers are the ones who would stand to inherit after his death, and from Cat's perspective, if she didn't give birth to him, he wasn't Robb's brother. Not to mention the fact that it was always a burr under her saddle that Ned kept Jon around so close, like a slap in the face if you are Cat.

So, do I think she HATED Jon? Not in the sense that she hates the Freys, Lannisters, and Boltons. But after years and years of resentment towards Ned but directing it towards Jon, could it equate to the same thing? Possibly, but I don't think so.

[Ramz]

Still, kind of sad, if that is what happened. I don't think he had reason not to trust Catelyn in that. And there wouldn't be much chance that the whole issue would be revealed - nobody cared much for what they did in the North. In fact, one could say that _keeping_ it secret from Catelyn finally meant the death of "someone".

It's pretty sad yea, but it could also work in favor of how GRRM has written Ned thus far. Honor bound to the tenth degree. If R+L does in fact = J, you could speculate on the various outcomes of Ned's decision not to tell anyone all day, but in the end he was simply doing what he thought was in the best interests of Jon (which also conveniently allows GRRM to keep Ned up to speed as the ultimate honor bound duder)

[Ramz]

Assuming R+L=J, I'm in the boat that thinks that Ned ought to have told Catelyn, though it's understandable that he didn't. Sure, she would have probably had a hard time manufacturing resentment for him if she knew he wasn't Ned's bastard, but she could certainly understand the importance of appearances and still kept her distance, if a more truly neutral distance. Plus she would still have an investment in separating Jon's status from her children's because everyone else would be perceiving Jon as a particularly favored bastard and that's still dangerous for her kids. I don't think anyone at Winterfell would be scrutinizing Catelyn's attitude so closely that the would be able to guess R+L=J from it. Most people's appetite for tabloid fodder is satisfied by the N+A=J angle, and only Robert has a particular grudge against Targaryens (and Robert isn't very attentive or clever).

Still, like I said I understand Ned being overly cautious, given the stakes, even though I would've done differently. I think it's a bigger strike against Ned that he never provided Jon a surrogate mother figure, FWIW.

I agree for the most part, but it works with Neds unbending code as well, to a degree. Also we have to consider the story itself, It would have suffered if Ned actually told Cat that he's the love child of R and L.

[Lady Blackfish]

Nah. Those children aren’t brought up in middle-class families. Noble children don’t have mother figures in the first place. They’re raised by wetnurses, or commoners like Septa Mordane, and then farmed out.

Yeah it wouldnt've been a story choice that would've challenged modern sensibilities, but I'm not sure we're prevented from seeing things through our modern lens anyway. There's an intentional undercurrent of mourning for missing mothers in the series, an indictment of their absence, I've always felt.

Ned could have sent Jon to the Flints or Umbers or whatever, just like he’d be expected to. But he probably promised to raise Jon “as if he were your own” or something. It’s necessary for the story. What bugs me is that Jon should know all these things, but is written as if he though he was a stepson.

Or the Tallharts, which isn't even that far from Winterfell.

Jon's mentality may be explained within the story by the idea that he's not aware because raising him in Winterfell truly does blur the lines between true-born and bastard children. But Martin could have used Ned's POV to make the distinction more clear, at least.

[Lord of Autumn's End]

If by chance the BWB will encounter Jon Snow. Will Lady Stoneheart order Jon's death? Considering that she's somehow a vengeful undead right now?

On what grounds would she even have for convincing the BWB to do that? They seem to be into the whole Trial before Execution thing, they're not just yes-men. Assuming they did meet, and Lady Stoneheart ordered Jon killed, I think the Brotherhood would just let him go.

Cat HATES Jon, almost as much as Cersie hates Tyrion.

If the two were ever to meet i wouldn't put it past cat to try and have him killed, kill him herself.

She doesn't HATE him. She resents him because his presence at Winterfell while growing up was a slap in the face to her and a potential future threat to her own children or their descendants. Granted, I still really dislike her character for it, but I can totally see where she's coming from and approve of the realism.

She'd need something to push her over the edge (again) before she'd try and kill him.

No, I don't think UnCat will want to kill Jon. She's all about the people who harmed her family. The only scenario in which I could envision it is if she learned some of her children were alive and that Jon was making a play for their inheritance.

Cat didn't usually speak to Jon with as much loathing as she displayed at Bran's bedside.

:agree:

As has been said thousands of time, and made explicit in the text, she does not loathe him for existing. She would have forgiven Ned dozens of bastards, and she tried to love the boy, etc….

She loathes that he was raised at Winterfell as a trueborn child. This is a political insult to House Tully, pissing on the thousands of Riverrun commoners that had to give their lives in the pact that sold Catelyn to House Stark, not to mention a personal insult to her as a wife. It’s just not done.

:agree:

[Robb the Lord]

I love how given the author, I can't simply dismiss this idea out of hand. Although, still, I find the concept highly unlikely and man, weird on so many Freudian levels that I'm just going to let the subject lie low for now.

If nothing else, I think the Thoros and Melisandre meeting would answer a lot of questions.

Is anyone in agreement that if does turn out that R + L = J, Ned made an almost unforgivable mistake not telling his wife that? I don't care what he promised; if Jon really isn't his son, I see no purpose in not revealing this information to Catelyn. It's not as if she was going to tell anybody. Hiding the fact from Jon, although cruel as well, is more understandable.

Maybe it is a mistake, but if word got out it might create a diplomatic issue between him and Robert, considering how he wanted Dany executed even though he didn't know she planned to move against Westeros.

But also this is Ned Stark. Maybe it doesn't make sense to lie to Catelyn from a practical perspective but he would not betray a promise to anyone, much less his sister's dying wish. I agree that hiding it from Jon made sense if it's true. No need to give him an even greater sense of entitlement than he already has.

Thoros and Mel meeting would be cool. If they didn't get along they could fight fire with fire! :P

[Lord of Autumn's End]

Thoros and Mel meeting would be cool. If they didn't get along they could fight fire with fire! :P

Just how long have you been waiting to say that? :lol:

[Horatz]

Just how long have you been waiting to say that? :lol:

Far too long I reckon. ;D

[Amae Koromo]

I can't see the two of them meeting each other. They are far from each other and with different aims at the moment.

Jon has to defend the Wall. Catelyn has to give her love to Lannisters, Boltons and Freys.

The one Stark I can see meeting the others is Arya. But dunno how it will be.

Will she be ordered to kill one of her living siblings? If so, will she do it (if she is not Arya anymore, this could happen)? Or will she ally herself with them (she never stopped being Arya, she was only training for revenge/she becomes Arya again after seeing her sibling?

[Axon]

Will she be ordered to kill one of her living siblings? If so, will she do it (if she is not Arya anymore, this could happen)? Or will she ally herself with them (she never stopped being Arya, she was only training for revenge/she becomes Arya again after seeing her sibling?

I strongly suspect Arya will be ordered to kill Jon. She may even be sent to the wall as Arya to more easily pass the defenses of the Night's Watch. Arya has a cool plotline, but not much or a role in the primary plot of the story at this juncture.

[Horatz]

I strongly suspect Arya will be ordered to kill Jon. She may even be sent to the wall as Arya to more easily pass the defenses of the Night's Watch. Arya has a cool plotline, but not much or a role in the primary plot of the story at this juncture.

Who would have enough interest in seeing John dead to pay such a large sum?

Who would have the funds to begin with?

There might other possibilities.

There is this creepy little idea that's been spooking around in my head for some time now...

What if the Many-faced God is not only very real, but he is also the white Light moving out of the hills and the Great other Mel loves to talk about so much?

[Happy Ent]

I strongly suspect Arya will be ordered to kill Jon. She may even be sent to the wall as Arya to more easily pass the defenses of the Night's Watch. Arya has a cool plotline, but not much or a role in the primary plot of the story at this juncture.

There’s lots of speculation about that, of course. A more entertaining contract, which she wouldn’t reject immediately (remember, she knows that Jon is Lord Commander) would be for her to be ordered to kill Alayne, the Lady of the Eyrie and usurper of the Tully claim to the Vale. Or something like that.

[Axon]

Who would have enough interest in seeing John dead to pay such a large sum?

Who would have the funds to begin with?

There might other possibilities.

There is this creepy little idea that's been spooking around in my head for some time now...

What if the Many-faced God is not only very real, but he is also the white Light moving out of the hills and the Great other Mel loves to talk about so much?

Intriguing...I could see the kind old man saying something ambiguous like "the stranger wants Jon Snow" or the like. Which would add a very interesting spin to the House of Black and White. However, I don't think GRRM is going there, at least not in that direct a fashion. The man loves his subtleties, as we know.

[StarkWard]

I don't think unCat will kill Jon, for the simple reason that she has better prospect targets for revenge. But if she does try to justify killing him, it will be for the following reasons:

1) He, of all Ned's children, is still alive.

2) He didn't break his vows and follow Robb to war.

3) Him being named Robb's heir seems to rob her of something again.

All minor reasons yes, but who knows what a zombie thinks?