Ned + ? = Jon Snow

[A Redeemed Hound]

Just read a chapter in AGOT and came accross a rather interesting quote from an Eddard chapter. He was walking with Littlefinger from the brothel to the Red Keep and was thinking about Robert's bastards....

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

Is this not a great scene showing Ned admitting Jon is his own son?!?! Later in that chapter he even thinks of Rhaegar for the first time in a long time and wonders if he would have such desires and decides that he probably would not.

It's more romantic and dramatic if Jon is the son of R+L but Ned's personal feelings about Jon, his inability to lie to anyone, his honor, his story, etc. all point to him having a fling with Wylla or Ashara. I am thinking it's really just going to be Wylla and people are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Ned tells King Robert the mother is Wylla; Wylla has confirmed though her story Jon is her son with Ned; Edric Dayne says Jon was his milk brother and the mother is Wylla.

I do think that something romantic/tragic happened between R+L. We just have not seen the offspring/result of that relationship yet.

[chris.t.]

I find the Ashara more likely to be true. It would fit more with Ned's character. Imagine perhaps that Ned and Ashara made promises to each other before Brandon died. Then at some point after Brandon's death Ned and Ashara get together. She reminds him of his promises, he reminds her of his duties, and they... er... compromise. Later, Ned actually has to kill his lover's brother in the war, and ashamed and grief-stricken, he trades the brother's sword for his bastard son. Ashara commits suicide. Ned doesn't want to blacken Ashara's name, so he conceals/lies about Jon's mother.

Wyla just doesn't make sense. Under what circumstances would Eddard Stark ever lay with a commoner woman? I can't even imagine early 20s Ned doing it.

...And just because R+L doesn't = J, it doesn't mean that Lyana didn't have a baby with Rhaegar and that it isn't being hidden somewhere. The fact that Jon is of the exact right age and of mysterious parentage could be a complete coincidence.

Or there could be some completely different secret promise that Lyana forced Ned to make on her deathbed that haunted him for the rest of his life. A secret promise that haunted him, but which we never really see him do anything about.

[A Redeemed Hound]

I find the Ashara more likely to be true. It would fit more with Ned's character. Imagine perhaps that Ned and Ashara made promises to each other before Brandon died. Then at some point after Brandon's death Ned and Ashara get together. She reminds him of his promises, he reminds her of his duties, and they... er... compromise. Later, Ned actually has to kill his lover's brother in the war, and ashamed and grief-stricken, he trades the brother's sword for his bastard son. Ashara commits suicide. Ned doesn't want to blacken Ashara's name, so he conceals/lies about Jon's mother.

Wyla just doesn't make sense. Under what circumstances would Eddard Stark ever lay with a commoner woman? I can't even imagine early 20s Ned doing it.

...And just because R+L doesn't = J, it doesn't mean that Lyana didn't have a baby with Rhaegar and that it isn't being hidden somewhere. The fact that Jon is of the exact right age and of mysterious parentage could be a complete coincidence.

Or there could be some completely different secret promise that Lyana forced Ned to make on her deathbed that haunted him for the rest of his life. A secret promise that haunted him, but which we never really see him do anything about.

I actually do think Lyanna had a baby with Rhaegar but we just have not seen it yet. I think Howland Reed has it and that is why he is in hiding. Because Robert would have wanted the baby dead. And Reed would have been there to accept the baby and bring it home.

As for Wylla, I don't know. Ned sleeping with a commoner is no different than all the other bastards out there. Like he said, it was lust. He and Ashara would have been for love and not lust IMO. But I still think there is good reason to believe he and Ashara had/made Jon Snow. I just have this feeling Jon is exactly who he claimed him to be, which is not bad at all. Maybe Ashara killed herself because Ned killed her brother and had a child with a woman who served house Dayne and is taking him home to meet his new wife Catelyn when she had dreamed of marrying Ned and having kids with him herself. Ashara would have been mortified by all of that, which led her to kill herself. And that is some massive guilt on Ned's shoulders.

[Datepalm]

I find the Ashara more likely to be true. It would fit more with Ned's character. Imagine perhaps that Ned and Ashara made promises to each other before Brandon died. Then at some point after Brandon's death Ned and Ashara get together. She reminds him of his promises, he reminds her of his duties, and they... er... compromise.

Compromise...by having an unacknowledged bastard lovechild? What? Thats Ashara not getting the man she's (supposedly) in love with, and Ned not not breaking his vows. Compromise is the opposite of that - its when both sides get something of what they want, I think.

[Ramz]

hmm, Interesting. Ned THINKING something is pretty solid proof of Jon being his kid, he wouldn't think a lie for the readers sake, that would be moronic. What are the claims to disprove this? I'm sure the R=L=J camp have a few?

Personally I'm pretty indifferent at this point. I could care less who Jon's parents are, I just want the 5th book to come out already.

[overcomebyfumes]

I really don't think Ashara is dead. I think she took a baby (probably Lyanna and Rheagar's) to the free cities and the "suicide" is just a cover story.

Why do I always feel like the real story was Rob and Ned's revolt, and ASoIaF is just the poor sequal?

Pax.

[EvilClosetMonkey]

What Ned thinks of Rhaegar is whether he visited whores and he decided that he probably did not. While Ned's thoughts on bastards leading to Jon does initially seem to point to Jon being Ned's son, it is certainly not definitive. It could be that Ned thinks of Jon because the world thinks he is a bastard or perhaps he makes that connection because he believes Jon is the bastard son of R & L. Not going to hijack this thread into another R+L=J thread, just pointing out that there are other explanations.

Also, Ned does lie, just not often and not without good reason. Admitting to the "treason" and telling Robert he'll watch after his kids knowing full well Robert mean Joff, Myrcella, and Tommen are two examples that spring to mind.

[Corvinus85]

Just read a chapter in AGOT and came accross a rather interesting quote from an Eddard chapter. He was walking with Littlefinger from the brothel to the Red Keep and was thinking about Robert's bastards....

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

Is this not a great scene showing Ned admitting Jon is his own son?!?! Later in that chapter he even thinks of Rhaegar for the first time in a long time and wonders if he would have such desires and decides that he probably would not.

It's more romantic and dramatic if Jon is the son of R+L but Ned's personal feelings about Jon, his inability to lie to anyone, his honor, his story, etc. all point to him having a fling with Wylla or Ashara. I am thinking it's really just going to be Wylla and people are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Ned tells King Robert the mother is Wylla; Wylla has confirmed though her story Jon is her son with Ned; Edric Dayne says Jon was his milk brother and the mother is Wylla.

I do think that something romantic/tragic happened between R+L. We just have not seen the offspring/result of that relationship yet.

I am currently re-reading AFFC, having gone through the previous novels. Unless I missed it, so far Wylla does not appear in the books, so where did you get her confirmation? (and just cause she confirmed doesn't make it true)

Also, IMO when Ned was thinking of Rhaegar, he was thinking more along the lines that Rhaegar would never go whoring (unlike Robert), which is not the same as not going for another woman.

[Amae Koromo]

What about Ned + Lyanna?

To defeat the Lannisters and the Targaryen...

[corbon]

hmm, Interesting. Ned THINKING something is pretty solid proof of Jon being his kid, he wouldn't think a lie for the readers sake, that would be moronic. What are the claims to disprove this? I'm sure the R=L=J camp have a few?

Only one is needed. Just read it... :rolleyes:

The fact that he doesn't think Jon "is his son", he thinks Jon looks a lot like a younger version of him.

If R+L=J is true then Jon is his nephew - and already Arya and Jon have been noted as looking the most alike, having the Stark look, and Arya looking like Lyana. If Jon is his nephew, and shares the 'Stark look' then he should look something like Ned.

Arya looks like her aunt (not under question) Lyana, Jon looks like his 'uncle' (maybe) Ned.

He also thinks nothing about himself specifically having 'such lusts' just men in general. That may or may not include him in his own mind, it isn't possible to tell.

[Maegor Targaryen]

Ned tells King Robert the mother is Wylla

Ned know how to lie to Robert... If he told him that Lyanna had a child with Rhaegar it would really hurt Robert.

[potcallingthekettleblack]

Personally I'm pretty indifferent at this point. I could care less who Jon's parents are, I just want the 5th book to come out already.

So you could care less... but you're also indifferent to the point?

[Ramz]

Only one is needed. Just read it... :rolleyes:

The fact that he doesn't think Jon "is his son", he thinks Jon looks a lot like a younger version of him.

If R+L=J is true then Jon is his nephew - and already Arya and Jon have been noted as looking the most alike, having the Stark look, and Arya looking like Lyana. If Jon is his nephew, and shares the 'Stark look' then he should look something like Ned.

Arya looks like her aunt (not under question) Lyana, Jon looks like his 'uncle' (maybe) Ned.

He also thinks nothing about himself specifically having 'such lusts' just men in general. That may or may not include him in his own mind, it isn't possible to tell.

Interesting. Still up for debate I guess. I'm definitely in the R+L=J camp, personally. Its too juicy to let up. And honestly, I'm sure if the books themselves actually came out on time, I doubt most people would have come to that conclusion if it is in fact 'ruining' it for GRRM. Most probably wouldn't have read the last 4 books over and over again in anticipation either.

[SFDanny]

Just read a chapter in AGOT and came accross a rather interesting quote from an Eddard chapter. He was walking with Littlefinger from the brothel to the Red Keep and was thinking about Robert's bastards....

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

Is this not a great scene showing Ned admitting Jon is his own son?!?! Later in that chapter he even thinks of Rhaegar for the first time in a long time and wonders if he would have such desires and decides that he probably would not.

corbon deals with this quite well in his post, but I'd just like to echo that in the actual quote Ned doesn't "admit" that Jon is his son.

It's more romantic and dramatic if Jon is the son of R+L but Ned's personal feelings about Jon, his inability to lie to anyone, his honor, his story, etc. all point to him having a fling with Wylla or Ashara. I am thinking it's really just going to be Wylla and people are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Ned tells King Robert the mother is Wylla; Wylla has confirmed though her story Jon is her son with Ned; Edric Dayne says Jon was his milk brother and the mother is Wylla.

I do think that something romantic/tragic happened between R+L. We just have not seen the offspring/result of that relationship yet.

With any of these theories many questions arise, and, while it is ok to just write I support this idea or I like this one better than that one, it does little to convince other readers if one doesn't at least try to deal with some of those pesky questions that go along with any theory. With Wylla as Jon's mom it is quite true that it has the very real support of being the only theory that actually has characters claiming to be Jon's mother and father. That is about the only thing, however, it has going for it. First, if this is the true answer to our mystery, one has to ask why is it a secret at all? Specifically, why doesn't Ned tell Jon and Catelyn, or the rest of the world beyond Robert for that matter, that Wylla is Jon's mother? It seems awfully cruel to Jon and Catelyn to not tell them doesn't it? Ned certainly isn't protecting Wylla from the world knowing she gave birth to his bastard - she proclaims it loudly to young Ned Dayne herself. And we have to ask how this worked. Ned falls in love with Ashara and sleeps with one of her servants? Not only that, but Wylla continues to work for the Daynes after Ashara supposedly kills herself over her love for the man who cheated on her with Wylla? I'd love to see Martin's draft of the dialogue that takes place with that meeting. It makes almost no sense whatsoever.

Now, with Ashara as Jon's mom it works much better regarding Ned's motive for keeping quiet about Jon's mother's identity, and explains his lying to his king as well. After all she was a Targaryen loyalist and if Ned and Ashara conceived Jon in the midst of the rebellion then Ned has a good reason to lie to Robert. What is his motive for not telling Catelyn, and most especially Jon? And most important we need to explain the timeline questions about their meeting, how and where it takes place, and why no one else knows about their meeting. All in all, even with the lack of supporting evidence this makes much more sense than the Wylla scenario - which cries out as a cover story.

[Spoony]

No.

Brandon and Lysa Tully were the parents of Jon Snow.

As proven by this argument.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/43893-l-b-j/

[corbon]

Ned know how to lie to Robert... If he told him that Lyanna had a child with Rhaegar it would really hurt Robert.

Note that Ned didn't even lie to Robert, at least in the instance we see live on stage.

If you read the interchange carefully, Roberts's actual question was something like "what was that serving girl's name?"

Robert himself qualifies it with the assumption that she was Jon's mother to indicate which serving girl he meant.

Ned carefully answers the actual question and leaves the false assumption unchallenged. That is the sort of not-lie that would perfectly satisfy Ned's honour and Robert is far too straightforward to even guess at (especially from his trusted friend).

[A Redeemed Hound]

I really don't think Ashara is dead. I think she took a baby (probably Lyanna and Rheagar's) to the free cities and the "suicide" is just a cover story.

Why do I always feel like the real story was Rob and Ned's revolt, and ASoIaF is just the poor sequal?

Pax.

Also a very good idea. I like that a lot actually. I agree the real story was the revolt and the books are just dealing with the aftermath. Maybe after all 7 books are done we will get a prequel series... :rofl:

[A Redeemed Hound]

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

To me this is very clearly saying that Ned knows Jon is the result of a man's lusts. And he just thinks of Jon and how he looks just like a younger version of himself. To me it is him admitting even he was weak at one time and his lust created a bastard.

If you think about it, Jon Snow has some problems regarding lust and vows as well, all resulting in massive guilt up there beyond The Wall. To me he is just like his father. Lyanna was considered the wild wolf. Jon is not wild. He's all Ned.

[Horza]

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

To me this is very clearly saying that Ned knows Jon is the result of a man's lusts. And he just thinks of Jon and how he looks just like a younger version of himself. To me it is him admitting even he was weak at one time and his lust created a bastard.

If you think about it, Jon Snow has some problems regarding lust and vows as well, all resulting in massive guilt up there beyond The Wall. To me he is just like his father. Lyanna was considered the wild wolf. Jon is not wild. He's all Ned.

I'm sorry. It's not there. This passage reads nothing like a father thinking about his bastard son. The language is impersonal and abstract, devoid of the pain and guilt a father would feel over his son being forced into second-class status by custom and convention. Noting Jon looks like a younger Ned isn't conclusive. It is clearly stating that Jon is the result of a man's lusts, it's nowhere near saying that man was Eddard.

[Blue Steel]

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

To me this is very clearly saying that Ned knows Jon is the result of a man's lusts. And he just thinks of Jon and how he looks just like a younger version of himself. To me it is him admitting even he was weak at one time and his lust created a bastard.

If you think about it, Jon Snow has some problems regarding lust and vows as well, all resulting in massive guilt up there beyond The Wall. To me he is just like his father. Lyanna was considered the wild wolf. Jon is not wild. He's all Ned.

First, Ned isn't necessarily thinking that he was the one with the lusts.

Arya is wild so does that mean Arya is Lyanna's daughter according to your logic? Jon doesn't have to be wild like Lyanna to be Lyanna's son. Out of all of Ned's children, none of them really took his look. Arya alone had the Stark look and she looked more like Lyanna so the gene that probably goes back that ended up in Lyanna probably ended up in Arya as well. Ned's seed is weak when it comes to looks. So even if Jon was Ned's son, there was a higher chance that he'd take after the mother whether it was Ashara or Wylla. The fact that Jon looks like Ned actually works against the prospect of Ned being the father if you take that into consideration.

As for your other point about Ned wondering if Rhaegar had such desires, it was in reference to Ned visiting the whorehouse that night and him wondering if Rhaeger ever visited brothels.