Videogames

[haLobEnder]

Maybe it's because I play a lot of frustratingly difficult JRPGs. I just think difficulty can sometimes hinder a story-driven game's enjoyment more than help it.

I get the challenge=fun equation to some extent. If you play a lot of a certain type of game, you become more skilled at it to the point where 'normal' mode is not much of a challenge. But aren't modes like 'Nightmare' created to be nigh unbeatable? I just don't see how people can derive much enjoyment from the pattern of playing, dying and reloading for hours on end; I get frustrated if I have to repeat the process more than once or twice.

And I guess I also just don't like the bragging that often accompanies people who pursue these type of modes. I feel guilty enough spending as much time as I do in front of a TV/computer screen; Am I supposed to congratulate them for wasting their time on something with no real world applications?

(Sorry if that last bit seems adversarial, it's not directed at anyone here, just in general)

[Poobah]

Maybe it's because I play a lot of frustratingly difficult JRPGs. I just think difficulty can sometimes hinder a story-driven game's enjoyment more than help it.

I get the challenge=fun equation to some extent. If you play a lot of a certain type of game, you become more skilled at it to the point where 'normal' mode is not much of a challenge. But aren't modes like 'Nightmare' created to be nigh unbeatable? I just don't see how people can derive much enjoyment from the pattern of playing, dying and reloading for hours on end; I get frustrated if I have to repeat the process more than once or twice.

And I guess I also just don't like the bragging that often accompanies people who pursue these type of modes. I feel guilty enough spending as much time as I do in front of a TV/computer screen; Am I supposed to congratulate them for wasting their time on something with no real world applications?

(Sorry if that last bit seems adversarial, it's not directed at anyone here, just in general)

I find the reward is overcoming the difficulty. I enjoy the story and writing in games and certainly that's a large part of why I enjoy games like Mass Effect 2, but as Jon AS said if you're gonna spend £35 on a game or whatever then you don't really want to be sitting in front of the screen for 10-20 hours yawning. If I wanted to do that I'd rent Titanic and put it on loop.

There are good and bad 'hard' difficulties. As in well and badly designed/thought through. I thought Insanity on ME2 was pretty well done: enemies were usually in slightly greater numbers, tougher, did more damage, maybe had better AI or accuracy/rate of fire and all that. But at the same time fights didn't get tedious because of them all having five hundred thousand berjillion hp either, instead they were adrenaline pumping because HOLYSHITIMGOINGTODIEAAAAH. Especially with the Vanguard Class. Oh yes. Mmm Vanguards.

I feel that the modern 'normal' or God forbid 'easy' modes are less games and more interactive movies that are sometimes significantly longer than real movies. The gameplay is stripped down so much that you could define a fps/tps on easy as a point and click puzzler. Except the only puzzle is click on enemy. It's a 'game' stripped of the actual gameplay and that's just no fun. I buy a third/first person shooter because I want the enjoy taking part in the action, not because I wanted an 'interactive storytelling experience' or whatever bullshit they are calling it these days.

Also on the whole bragging thing. Yeah. When I was pretty young my dad and I both played Quake 64 for bragging rights. We both beat the game on Nightmare, it was good and fun times.

[haLobEnder]

I feel that the modern 'normal' or God forbid 'easy' modes are less games and more interactive movies that are sometimes significantly longer than real movies. The gameplay is stripped down so much that you could define a fps/tps on easy as a point and click puzzler. Except the only puzzle is click on enemy. It's a 'game' stripped of the actual gameplay and that's just no fun. I buy a third/first person shooter because I want the enjoy taking part in the action, not because I wanted an 'interactive storytelling experience' or whatever bullshit they are calling it these days.

I guess I'm fine with my games being 'interactive movies' to some extent. As long as I'm entertained for 15+ hours I usually consider it money well spent. JRPGs in particular would be far better if they were more interactive and less challenging.

Using your example of Mass Effect 2. My first playthrough on 'normal' was 42 hours long (with dlc). I'm sure I died a few times, but usually I prevailed. I fail to see how dying more often and adding countless 'hidden' hours to my playthrough would somehow make the game more satisfying to me. The end result is the same --I won-- and ultimately it was the story and characters that drove me forward, not the gameplay.

But I concede I'm probably the exception rather than the rule. I do derive some enjoyment from challengeing AI, I just usually prefer it in the type games where there isn't really an objective outside of your win conditions --Civilization, Unreal Tournament, and the like. I also don't tend to brag about my achievements in these games because I'm playing them for personal enjoyment, not for one-upmanship.

[Sheep the Evicted]

Lots of new screenshots have been released for The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings, and they're looking pretty awesome. The first post in this thread has gathered most of them, I think. May 17th can't come fast enough.

Nice. Very, very nice. The "best looking RPG of 2011" was no ideal boast then.

Especially when you compare it to screen shots of Dragon Age 2 :laugh:

[Poobah]

Using your example of Mass Effect 2. My first playthrough on 'normal' was 42 hours long (with dlc). I'm sure I died a few times, but usually I prevailed. I fail to see how dying more often and adding countless 'hidden' hours to my playthrough would somehow make the game more satisfying to me. The end result is the same --I won-- and ultimately it was the story and characters that drove me forward, not the gameplay.

Well... I guess we just see it differently. I think your interpreting 'game being harder' with 'dying more often and adding countless 'hidden' hours' is incorrect too. That is certainly not what makes the added difficulty more fun. The game is more fun because it's harder and not more fun because as a result of it being harder you might die more often. Depending on the class you play as every single room becomes a new tactical challenge to overcome. It's all zen and shit - journey not destination.

[Veira]

As one of those people who has an unhealthy obsession with playing on the hardest difficulties, I feel like throwing in my cheap two cents here. Like Jon AS and Poobah, I find the challenge really rewarding. I even come up with my own ridiculous constraints to make games more difficult. For example, I played through Dead Space 2 for the first time on zealot mode with only the plasma cutter. Why? To see if I could. It drove my roommate nuts, which was an added bonus. :P

I don't look down on people who play games normally (though playing a horror game on easy mode strikes me as sort of pointless), but it's fun when I run into other people who are as crazy about this stuff as I am and we can geek out about gameplay mechanics for hours and hours. It's just a different way of being extremely nerdy. I suppose the sense of pride I get out of accomplishing these things could be seen as "bragging rights," but to me it's not about being better than other people. It's about personal achievement. Sort of like climbing a mountain. One of my best friends is especially freakish about game challenges, and we work on them together, either co-op or helping each other out with tips and whatnot. It's a lot of fun.

re: story-driven games, it's probably worth noting that I mostly play horror and action games, so adding that challenge is a way of making them scarier/ more tense. I played through Dragon Age on normal mode because I was in it for the story. After the first time through I switched to nightmare, but I do agree that some games don't really need harder difficulties. I certainly wouldn't want to play a Final Fantasy game on hard mode.

Since we're on the topic, has anyone here been working on (or done) Dead Space 2's hardcore mode? It's totally ridiculous (in a fantastic way).

[Poobah]

I agree with the above post!

[Kosciuszko]

Not to pick on you Kosciuszko, but I have to ask, why do people play on 'Nightmare' and similar modes? Is it for bragging rights? Do you end up dying often when playing these modes or are you skilled enough that 'normal' or even 'hard' don't present enough of a challenge?

To me, Dragon Age: Origins on consoles was frustrating enough on 'normal' mode. The controls just weren't designed for strategy like the PC version so I mainly just ignored my abilities and spells in favour of direct hack and slash. My sole reason for playing was for the story.

My first character was a City Elf Rogue that I screwed up on and had to play as Casual throughout most of it. Part of it was making up for that.

It isn't bragging that I did it, though I've encountered this. A lot of times I play a game on easy because I can't be bothered with the hard modes. But a well designed hard mode is a joy to play. Part of what should be done is giving more than bragging rights for this. Like Fallout 3, which when I can be bothered to play it (don't get me ranting on Fallout 3 and my general disdain of it), I turn up to a harder difficulty. I get more XP per kill and see faster character advancement. In DA you get extra and better loot. A great thing when you want money to buy absurdly powerful shop items.

Some hard modes are poorly designed though. Many times I won't even bother giving it much of a try. I didn't really like the harder modes of Bayonetta for instance because it did detract from many of the main draws of the game- the beautiful moves and abilities she used became harder to initiate (in my experience). I played that on a very low difficulty because I don't feel a lot of achievement in racking up a high score and getting 1 of 4 trophies after each level. Like you I play a lot of JRPGs and I like my reward to be a bit more, well, concrete. Loot, XP, something like that.

Lastly... you can change the difficulty of DA at will. Nightmare is tough, sure, but if you get really stuck you can just tone it down and go on. It took me awhile before I felt confident in playing on Nightmare and went through several characters before I made the Warrior I love.

ETA: For a JRPG equivalent to why you might want to try a harder difficulty, load up Persona 3. Play it on a harder difficulty and you suddenly have a new appreciation of which characters are worthwhile on which floor, you fine-tune strategies for every enemy you encounter, etc. Its really fun but not crazy impossible, just a good challenge that makes you really get to know each character and persona you have.

[Tyrellius]

I finished Mass Effect a few days ago, I played it on normal as I wanted to get to Mass Effect 2 as fast as possible. I am sure I read somewhere that Sheppard is meant to be a soldier, so now as a soldier in ME2, I feel a little underwhelmed. Running around for ammo, not having any cool abilities is a bit disappointing. Does a soldier get anything really cool later on to make up for the constant running around looking for coolant clips?

ME2 feels like is was designed specifically for a console imo, the run and gun and hiding behind stuff, I'm sure it would rock on a PS3. WTF is up with bullets travelling so slowly?!

[Kosciuszko]

Here's my complaint about ME2 on PS3... graphic bugs. I can't tell you how many times I'm suddenly trapped on a table or in the ground and have to reload in it.

Other than that its pretty awesome. I enjoy the Adept but not tried the other classes.

[Merentha]

I finished Mass Effect a few days ago, I played it on normal as I wanted to get to Mass Effect 2 as fast as possible. I am sure I read somewhere that Sheppard is meant to be a soldier, so now as a soldier in ME2, I feel a little underwhelmed. Running around for ammo, not having any cool abilities is a bit disappointing. Does a soldier get anything really cool later on to make up for the constant running around looking for coolant clips?

ME2 feels like is was designed specifically for a console imo, the run and gun and hiding behind stuff, I'm sure it would rock on a PS3. WTF is up with bullets travelling so slowly?!

I don't believe bullets have a travel time? How are you constantly out of ammo? You have four guns, use them all. If you just spray with the assault rifle, you might have problems. Use the sniper at longer ranges, or pull out the shotgun once in a while. Also, you get time-slowing powers. Use that, its pretty cool.

Soldiers shoot things. Its what they do. If you want to do other things, play a different class. The only reason Shepard is "meant" to be a soldier is that the default class is a male soldier. Its the easiest to just drop into and play without really understanding the game mechanics, so its the default.

[haLobEnder]

ETA: For a JRPG equivalent to why you might want to try a harder difficulty, load up Persona 3. Play it on a harder difficulty and you suddenly have a new appreciation of which characters are worthwhile on which floor, you fine-tune strategies for every enemy you encounter, etc. Its really fun but not crazy impossible, just a good challenge that makes you really get to know each character and persona you have.

Actually Persona 3 was going to be my example of what I HATE about higher difficulties. It's already a hundred hour game, I just couldn't imagine putting more time into that game through micromanaging and restarting from your last save after losing battles (which I'm sure would occur quite frequently for me). FES with its lack of a 'normal' difficulty was torturous for me to get through.

But I concede your point. You can enjoy the challenge of higher difficulties without it being a bragging thing.

I am curious about the appeal of DA:O's 'nightmare' mode on consoles however. For me, the tradeoff of getting more experience for having to navigate the horrible control scheme just isn't there. I enjoy Baldur's Gate style games on the PC, but micromanaging on consoles is frustrating.

[Poobah]

I finished Mass Effect a few days ago, I played it on normal as I wanted to get to Mass Effect 2 as fast as possible. I am sure I read somewhere that Sheppard is meant to be a soldier, so now as a soldier in ME2, I feel a little underwhelmed. Running around for ammo, not having any cool abilities is a bit disappointing. Does a soldier get anything really cool later on to make up for the constant running around looking for coolant clips?

Shepard is whoever you want her to be. Soldier is a pretty shooty class. It's also by far the easiest class to play the game with, being as another poster mentioned kinda the 'default' but Shepard is not 'supposed' to be any more one thing than the other, this is an RPG after all. Soldier is yea, 'so I heard this was a third person cover shooter with an actual story?' there's nothing wrong with it, and my first Shep was a soldier but if you were looking for cooler abilities than lulzadrenalinerush then maybe you should look into the other classes.

As to running out of ammo... honestly I only rarely had that problem, and then it was usually because I was playing badly and on insanity where stuff has more health. Especially with the soldier's signature easymode adrenaline rush you shouldn't be having problems killing stuff without using all your ammo up. And yea you have lots of guns, just switch if you run out of bullets on your assault rifle. Go recruit Archangel if you didn't already, you get a much better Assault Rifle in that mission, with regards to accuracy, damage, etc. Though if you have some of the DLCs you probably already started with a decent one.

Take a look in the manual for info on the various abilities the classes get, or at your character screen. What were you looking for in a character?

Here's a broad overview of what each class does and a quick mention of some stuffs you get later in the game that might effect your choice ->

First. Later in the game you can pick between an assault rifle, a shotgun and a sniper rifle. If you can already use the weapon you pick then you get the (really good) gun of that type. If not then you learn to use that type of weapon (though you don't get the omgwtfpwn special gun of that type).

Also later on you can learn to use the loyalty power of any member of your squad. My soldier ended up getting Reave.

Ok classes:

All classes can use 'heavy weapons'.

Soldier -> shoots stuff, has bullet time ability (adrenaline rush). Lots of ammo powers that boost pewpewpew. Most classes have at least one ammo power. All guns except SMG.

Infiltrator -> Sniper. Has a cloak that gives you a big damage boost. Bonus headshot damage. Has a couple of tech powers (incinerate - a fireball spell, and ai hacking, a mind control for machine enemies). Pistol, Sniper Rifle, SMG.

Vanguard -> Motherfucking badass. Up close and personal shotgun wielder. Has a biotic charge for closing range and regenerating her barrier. Also has a couple of biotic powers (pull and shockwave). Pistol, Shutgun, SMG.

Sentimal -> Signature skill is a big tech powered armour booster thing that explodes a tonne when you take too much damage and gives you a lot of armour. Has a mix of tech and biotic powers otherwise. Pistol, SMG.

Engineer -> Loads of tech powers, one flavour of mage basically. Can summon a combat drone. Pistol, SMG.

Adept -> Loads of biotic powers, the other flavour of mage. Singularity is a good area disable/damage that you can combo well with warp.

All classes have a general passive power like "Biotic Mastery" "Combat Mastery" etc. that makes them better at what they do.

-Poobs

[Kosciuszko]

Actually Persona 3 was going to be my example of what I HATE about higher difficulties. It's already a hundred hour game, I just couldn't imagine putting more time into that game through micromanaging and restarting from your last save after losing battles (which I'm sure would occur quite frequently for me). FES with its lack of a 'normal' difficulty was torturous for me to get through.

Speaking of Persona, how is Persona 4 and if I have the PSP version of Persona 3 should I get the PS2 FES version when I buy a new PS2 in a few weeks? I ask because I've only been playing Persona a short time and LOVE it.

As far as Nightmare on the console goes... I don't know, but I didn't micromanage that much. I just set myself up in the best gear I could get my grubby little hands on and poured into two stats and only glanced at Willpower for extra Stamina and my Templar AoE (I think it also added to the Reaver AoE aura?).

[Tyrellius]

Ta for the info Poobs and Merentha.

[haLobEnder]

Speaking of Persona, how is Persona 4 and if I have the PSP version of Persona 3 should I get the PS2 FES version when I buy a new PS2 in a few weeks? I ask because I've only been playing Persona a short time and LOVE it.

Persona 4 is a must buy. Personally I liked it more than P3, though both are great games. I'm actually a little surprised Atlus hasn't given P4 the multiple version treatment yet... I have to assume a PSP/NGP version is forthcoming.

I'm actually not sure whether or not Persona 3 FES would be worth your while if you have the PSP version already. On one hand you can only play as a male protagonist in FES, but on the other it includes a 30+ hour 'sequel' not included in any other version. I'm unsure if the additional social link and demons made it to the port or if they're exclusive to FES as well.

As far as the additional chapter goes, it's gruelingly difficult --perhaps a plus for you ;)-- the story is nowhere near as good and it scraps the whole social link aspect of the game.

[Inigima]

I play video games on normal because I am bad at video games :) I'm not trolling, I really do and that's really why. I used to think I was good at them and then I met the Internet.

The fact that Shepard can be anything is what makes Mass Effect awesome.

[Alcibiades]

I just got a PSP! I found a great deal on one on Craigslist, and decided to jump on it. So far, I have FF7 Crisis Core, Wipeout Pure, Metal Gear Solid Portable Ops (some major control issues here...), Loco Roco 2, and God of War Chains of Olympus. FFT is in the mail and should arrive in a few days.

I've mostly been playing Crisis Core and having a great time with it. I was a huge FF7 fanboy back in middle school. Some of the environments in Crisis Core are rather bland, but others look quite excellent.

Has anyone played Dissidia? I had dismissed it as fan service when I first heard about it, but apparently its fairly highly regarded by the video game press.

[Veira]

I am curious about the appeal of DA:O's 'nightmare' mode on consoles however. For me, the tradeoff of getting more experience for having to navigate the horrible control scheme just isn't there. I enjoy Baldur's Gate style games on the PC, but micromanaging on consoles is frustrating.

Well, the console version is all I had for a long time, so I didn't know any different. I've since purchased a gaming PC and been playing DA:O on that, and I think it's more enjoyable in a lot of ways. That being said, there's a huge appeal to being able to play while curled up on the couch under a blanket in front of the big tv. I don't like sitting in front of the computer screen for long amounts of time. That's what I do all day already for work and school. Playing a game away from a computer is a luxury, which is ultimately why I decided to preorder DA2 for the PS3 instead of the PC. I'll pick up the PC version eventually, once it goes on sale, since mods are fun.

So, I guess the appeal of nightmare mode on the console - speaking only for myself, of course - is that I prefer consoles to PCs, and I like playing games on their hardest modes. It's not that nightmare on the console is especially appealing in and of itself. It's the opposite, if anything, since PC-nightmare is supposedly harder than console-nightmare, though I've never noticed any real difference myself. As for the micromanaging, I spent a lot (like, A LOT) of time fine-tuning the party tactics to minimize it.

Sorry, that was probably a way longer answer than you were looking for. :P

[Kosciuszko]

I just got a PSP! I found a great deal on one on Craigslist, and decided to jump on it. So far, I have FF7 Crisis Core, Wipeout Pure, Metal Gear Solid Portable Ops (some major control issues here...), Loco Roco 2, and God of War Chains of Olympus. FFT is in the mail and should arrive in a few days.

I've mostly been playing Crisis Core and having a great time with it. I was a huge FF7 fanboy back in middle school. Some of the environments in Crisis Core are rather bland, but others look quite excellent.

Has anyone played Dissidia? I had dismissed it as fan service when I first heard about it, but apparently its fairly highly regarded by the video game press.

What's Crisis Core like? I have Vakyria Chronicles 2, Dissidia, Lunar: Silver Star Harmony, Persona 3, and Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep.

Dissidia, in my experience (not played it much) is pretty good. If you like fighters you'll like it, and if you like Final Fantasy you'll like it. Particularly if you're a big fan of the older Final Fantasy characters.