Wisconsin Union Busting Bill/Protests

[Commodore]

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/116469428.html

According to the Wisconsin senate majority leader, the Governor’s office is sending out state troopers to go after Wisconsin’s Democratic Senate members to bring in a vote on Governor Walker’s budget bill which would dramatically limit government workers union’s ability to negotiate many of their benefits.

“They are prepared to dispatch state troopers to go out to some of the residences of some of the senators,” said Republican State Senator Scott Fitzgerald on Newsradio 620 WTMJ’s “Midday with Charlie Sykes.”

“We don’t know that everybody is out of state. These troopers are going to go and try to escort these senators back to the chamber.”

[The Progressive]

I don't think the Repubs will dare to send in the National Guards .......... it just might end up like Kent State.

[awesome possum]

Because-and feel free to stop me if I'm losing you- we're paying for their wages, pensions, and benefits. The burdern of public sector benefits is threatening to drive some states, such as California, into insolvency.

And again, how are teacher's salaries causing Wisconsin to drift towards insolvency? Is it that insane starting salary of $25,222 or the average 10-year salary of $46,390? Tell me, what is it exactly about those evil Wisconsin teachers that is causing the state to sink towards bankruptcy?

Why should a minority have the right to physically disrupt the actions of the elected majority?

I don't know, but I'd love to hear your answer, since you've been defending Republicans who did just that the past two years?

Or are you completely oblivious to your hypocrisy?

Um. Which part of 'benefits and pension costs are threatening to bankrupt some states' are you struggling with?

Um, which part of 'the governor immediately cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations once he took office' are you struggling with?

Walker basically reduced the state's intake from corporate taxes by $187 million (out of $630 million annually as of 2009) and is now saying it's the state education budget that is causing such a shortfall? He also pushed through a new law that says you must have a 2/3 super-majority to increase any income or sales taxes, which pretty much guarantees taxes will stay at that level after he's been kicked out of office for being a douchecanoe.

Those are just two small examples of what he's done to screw up that state in such a short amount of time.

But it's the teacher's fault.

[DrownedCrow]

By "pampered government workers", you are still talking about teachers, right? That lucrative overpaid career that everyone is falling over themselves to get into?

Do you say that because you actually know what kind of deal teachers in Wisconsin are getting or because it is an article of faith that teachers everywhere are deeply underappreciated and abused? Teachers in general (at least in the US) are much better off than most people seem to realize. Especially considering that the profession isn't exactly full of the best and brightest. (According to data from ETS that I saw people applying to teaching programs had abysmal GRE scores compared to pretty much every other type of grad student.) They may suck at educating our nation's youth but teachers sure know how to run a PR campaign.

[Merentha]

He also pushed through a new law that says you must have a 2/3 super-majority to increase any income or sales taxes

He did what now? Wow. Though, I am not good at legal issues, wouldn't the easiest way to get around this be to pass a law repealing this law, thus reverting everything back to requiring the default majority? Or is there something preventing that from happening? (Besides the veto and republican majority,I mean)

[adamsputnik]

Well if this shit doesn't show how ridiculous politics have become in the US then I don't know what would.

The governor should be in a deep pile of shit for creating this problem in the first place, yet I haven't heard much about it at all in the reporting of this story.

Anyway, good luck to them. If the governor had kept the status quo this shitfight would not have broken out, so fair play to employees for being pissed about this whole mess.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

He did what now? Wow. Though, I am not good at legal issues, wouldn't the easiest way to get around this be to pass a law repealing this law, thus reverting everything back to requiring the default majority?

You're correct. The goal ultimately is to do like a bunch of other states have done, and have it added to the state constitution. But under the Wisconsin constitution, that can't happen unless two consecutive legislatures vote for the provision, and it then wins on the ballot. So really, the purpose of this is to have it be the first of the two consecutive legislatures necessary to get it on the ballot.

[Bronn Stone]

Ultimately, I believe the outcome of the Wisconsin impasse will rest on the actions of two groups: the police and fire unions. Every issue that faces teachers and other government workers also affects them - they are entitled to expensive pensions at even younger ages, they earn high wages, they have expensive health care (and VERY expensive Workman's Comp). But they get a pass for one and only one reason. A lot of them vote Republican. The blatant partisanship of the whole exercise stinks to high hell.

If those unions join the protests, the Governor will have to back down. They have to decide if they are stronger with or without unions in the other slots. I hope they make the right choice.

[The Progressive]

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/116469428.html

Why aren't you outraged that the fireman and police unions are exempt from the proposed law, Commodore?

[DrownedCrow]

And again, how are teacher's salaries causing Wisconsin to drift towards insolvency? Is it that insane starting salary of $25,222 or the average 10-year salary of $46,390? Tell me, what is it exactly about those evil Wisconsin teachers that is causing the state to sink towards bankruptcy?

I admit to not knowing the details of Wisconsin's financial situation. From the sound of it the republican party's absurd stance on taxation has been a major factor. I'm more interested in this problem at the national level where it is undoubtedly the case the public sector unions have extorted ridiculously good terms out of state governments (and the federal government). In some states, this has the potential to cause a default in the future. The Economist had a very informative report on this subject recently, by the way.

I say all of this as someone whose paycheck comes from the federal government.

[TerraPrime]

If the best way to close the budget gap without new taxes is for government employees to take a pay cut, or reduction in pension matching then so be it. Frankly people that get government jobs, and I know we have a number on this board so please understand I am not attacking you in any way, should have to abide by the same rules as all of us in the private sector. My company froze all pay raises for the last 2 years, dropped all bonuses and will probably not have raises this year as well. We did this in an effort to reduce the number of layoffs.

The public workers of Wisconsin have taken pay cuts and reduction in pay, over the period of economic hardship. Here are some examples:

1. The government reneged on a pay raise promise to state university support staff. Even though the contract 2 cycles ago had promised a 1.5%/2%/1% raise over 3 years, the employees received an actual raise of 1%/0.5%/0 in reality.

2. Public employees are taking furlough days, which are forced unpaid holidays. These amount to about 6% pay cut over their annual wages. The furlough policy has been in practice for the last 3 years now.

3. Hiring has been put on hold in most agencies, and only need-to-function positions are approved for hiring. This has been true for the last few years, as well.

I know this because I was an employee for Wisconsin up till 3 years ago, and my SO was a state employee up until 5 months ago.

Re: DrownedCrow

This seems like a good idea to me. Public sector unions have been fucking over the rest of the country for a long time. In recent years, the average wage of government workers has surpoassed that of the private sector. When you consider that government workers typically have far better pensions/benefits and almost total job security, it doesn't seem quite fair, does it?

Citation? Evidence?

Teachers in general (at least in the US) are much better off than most people seem to realize. Especially considering that the profession isn't exactly full of the best and brightest. (According to data from ETS that I saw people applying to teaching programs had abysmal GRE scores compared to pretty much every other type of grad student.)

So, let me get this right. Public sector work, such as teachers in public schools, have better pensions and benefits, and the average wage is higher than comparable work in private sectors, according to you, and yet, we are not drawing those bright, intelligent people to the field. That sound about right as far as your argument goes?

[The Iceman of the North]

Do you say that because you actually know what kind of deal teachers in Wisconsin are getting or because it is an article of faith that teachers everywhere are deeply underappreciated and abused? Teachers in general (at least in the US) are much better off than most people seem to realize.

Do you have any evidence for this, or is it just your belief that this must be the case?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

The public workers of Wisconsin have taken pay cuts and reduction in pay, over the period of economic hardship. Here are some examples:

1. The government reneged on a pay raise promise to state university support staff. Even though the contract 2 cycles ago had promised a 1.5%/2%/1% raise over 3 years, the employees received an actual raise of 1%/0.5%/0 in reality.

2. Public employees are taking furlough days, which are forced unpaid holidays. These amount to about 6% pay cut over their annual wages. The furlough policy has been in practice for the last 3 years now.

3. Hiring has been put on hold in most agencies, and only need-to-function positions are approved for hiring. This has been true for the last few years, as well.

And what has happened to private sector employees in Wisconsin during that same period? While you're talking about hiring freezes and pay cuts, a whole lot of folks employed in the private sector actually lost their jobs entirely. Would you feel better if Wisconsin had simply fired enough government workers to balance the budget rather than cutting pay and freezing hiring?

http://www.jsonline.com/business/43111002.html

[Datepalm]

So, let me get this right. Public sector work, such as teachers in public schools, have better pensions and benefits, and the average wage is higher than comparable work in private sectors, according to you, and yet, we are not drawing those bright, intelligent people to the field. That sound about right as far as your argument goes?

Duh. If they weren't total incompetents unfit for survival, they wouldn't need all those benefits and unions and things. They could claw themselves up by their bootstraps like real Americans, and make awesome, awesome money in the private sector! Becuase thats how it works in the private sector! Now, you might ask who is supposed to, like, teach kids and stuff in this situation, but lets face it, any kid who can't teach themselves or who's parents can't afford private education probably dosen't deserve it anyway. Those second graders are lazy. And don't want it enough.

[Commodore]

Why aren't you outraged that the fireman and police unions are exempt from the proposed law, Commodore?

Perfect is the enemy of the good. This is still an improvement.

[Datepalm]

And what has happened to private sector employees in Wisconsin during that same period? While you're talking about hiring freezes and pay cuts, a whole lot of folks employed in the private sector actually lost their jobs entirely. Would you feel better if Wisconsin had simply fired enough government workers to balance the budget rather than cutting pay and freezing hiring?

http://www.jsonline....s/43111002.html

How the fuck does one relate to the other? Do you really thing that when a crunch came, if the state were to reduce taxes, corporations are really going to use that leeway to lay off less workers rather than make more fucking profit?

How incredibly demented are you that you see this as somehow being public sector employees facing wage cuts vs private sector employees facing layoffs rather than the whole bloody lot of you vs the people who make several hundred times what you do and use it to manipulate the whole democratic system to their ends like its a fucking sausage shaped party balloon?

[Merentha]

And what has happened to private sector employees in Wisconsin during that same period? While you're talking about hiring freezes and pay cuts, a whole lot of folks employed in the private sector actually lost their jobs entirely. Would you feel better if Wisconsin had simply fired enough government workers to balance the budget rather than cutting pay and freezing hiring?

http://www.jsonline.com/business/43111002.html

Lol, I find it hilarious that our usual trope of foaming rightwingers are trying hardest bending themselve backward to NOT address the fact that the alleged "fiscal crisis" that Wisconsin is supposedly undergoing was entirely manufactured by the Repubs in charge engaging in an orgy of corporate welfare.

Pretty much says it all. I like how the only two options to balance the budget here are "fire people" or "cut pay". Certainly, no other way at all.

edit: And, really, since when do corporations ever give out bonuses or raises when their taxes are lowered? Besides to their executives, I mean.

[Jaxom 1974]

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/116469428.html

I was going to post the Yahoo link on the same story...

Things are getting a little surreal here. I work at a Wisconsin state university, though luckily not for the university itself. My e-mail has been flooded for three days with professors and other university employees going back and forth about this. There was a protest/rally of some sort by about 200 students in the atrium of the Student Center yesterday. All in all, it's just getting weird.

[DrownedCrow]

So, let me get this right. Public sector work, such as teachers in public schools, have better pensions and benefits, and the average wage is higher than comparable work in private sectors, according to you, and yet, we are not drawing those bright, intelligent people to the field. That sound about right as far as your argument goes?

I hope I don't need to explain to you how that sentence doesn't make sense. Take a while to think about it and try again. No rush. And if you want to assign blame for the fact that teaching doesn't attract much talent you should probably look to the unions. After all, they have rigidly enforced a system where rewarding performance is forbidden and pay is entirely based on seniority. Does that sound like the kind of system that would be attractive to talented and ambitious people?

If you want evidence you should read that report in The Economist that I mentioned.

[Alexia]

How incredibly demented are you that you see this as somehow being public sector employees facing wage cuts vs private sector employees facing layoffs rather than the whole bloody lot of you vs the people who make several hundred times what you do and use it to manipulate the whole democratic system to their ends like its a fucking sausage shaped party balloon?

:agree:

Gotta hand it to the Republican PR machine, somehow making it a "you vs. them" issue between private and public sector employees.