Robb and Jeyne ... was Sybell telling jaime the truth?

[EvilClosetMonkey]

With only the current books, I don't see myself becoming less suspicious about Jeyne. I get what the detractors of the theory are saying, but I still think we were supposed to notice the hips discrepancy and I don't think it was a comment about the differences in Catelyn's and Jaime's hip preferences. Now, whether we were supposed to notice it because Jeyne has a stunt double or whether we were supposed to notice because it's a red herring, I don't know.

I'm leaning towards the idea that there was a swittch, but that Martin is going to subvert our idea of what a preggers Jeyne and Robb's baby would mean to the narrative. How will he accomplish this? I have no clue, that's why I read the books and don't write fantasy novels myself :)

I do want to comment on one argument I see used all the time by people who don't buy into the switch theory. I don't think it is fair to characterize this the theory as requiring some sort of insane double/triple cross which obviously doesn't make any sense. Also, I tend to assume that Sybell isn't the mountain that wears a dress. Even if she is an "ambitious bitch", she's not acting out of some perverse desire to inflict pain or see the world burn. If there is something going on with Jeyne in AFFC, I think it is likely that Sybell has simply been trying to make the best of a tricky situation. The taking of the Crag wasn't some insane plot by the Westerlings to poison Robb, lure him into marrying Jeyne, then have everyone murdered while Sybell does the kooky dance on their bodies. No one makes plans where each step depends on events that they have little to no control over.

Now, let's say that part of the early story here is as it appears. Robb surprises everyone with his detour into the Westerlands and the takes the Crag. Once the Crag falls, Jeyne tends to Robb in his sick bed (probably so the Westerlings can ingratiate themselves with the force that has forcibly occupied their home). One thing leads to another, Jeyne & Robb get it on, Robb feels honor-bound to marry her after seeing how the whole bastard thing has worked out with his parents and Jon and maybe Sybell even gave some encouragement along these lines.

At this point, if you are Sybell you have a problem. You are now very much tied to the King in the North, but you don't know if he'll actually win this war. Worse yet, your liege lord, Tywin, is fighting on the other side of this war and isn't exactly known for gentleness or mercy with those that defy him (A Lannister always pays his debts). IMHO, Sybell probably takes a rather smart action here. She's publicly tied to the Starks, so she contacts Tywin to let him know that she's still really on his side, she couldn't stop this from happening, and she'll be working from the inside for his benefit. At this point, all she really needs to do is stop Jeyne from getting pregnant until Robb wins or dies. If Robb wins, then it's no harm, no foul and her family just married into royalty. If Robb dies, she tells Tywin how she stopped the possibility of an heir and made wrapping this war up much less messy. Tywin probably makes some promises to give away some titles and lands for the support and moves on with his life.

Now, what happens if Jeyne does get pregnant? It doesn't matter how this happens. Maybe moon tea isn't 100% effective, maybe Cat switches brews, maybe it's divine intervention, really it isn't important. Again, if you're Sybell you have a huge problem on your hands again. Especially since Robb just bit it. You probably don't want to mess with Tywin because he's shrewd and ruthless. But Tywin suddenly dies and now you are presented again with an opportunity. Neither of the twins has a reputation as being particularly cunning and the Westerlings probably have some idea of what they are like since they're from the Westerlands. I think it is possible and not completely insane for Sybell at this point to try to protect Jeyne and the unborn child. If she makes a switch and gets Jeyne out she can protect her from the tender mercies of the Lannisters who are likely to be displeased with a pregnant Jeyne. Now, I'm willing to admit that this is rampant speculation; however, this at least makes some sense. Plus, this risk falls neatly into the whole "things we do for love" theme.

:fencing:

[Lady Winter Rose]

Yes, Sybell could have been feeding Jeyne real fertility potions all along - but again, this brings us back to the huge risk that crossing Tywin represents. Whether or not the moon tea (and of course, as Other-in-Law points out, not warning Robb of the coming betrayal) was Tywin's only demand of Sybell and her brother is unknown, but they clearly fulfilled their part of the bargain according to Tywin's expectations given that he pardoned them and raised Rolph Spicer to lord.

I already try to said. Why people think Sybil had agreement with Tywin? Whole even in death, hand of Tywin rule still (something like that) bring my attention. I think Sybil invented whole "I was double agent and my daughter drunk moon tea" just to trick Jaime. Like Westernlander, she know only Kevan knew his plans, agreements and thought.

[A wilding]

I already try to said. Why people think Sybil had agreement with Tywin? Whole even in death, hand of Tywin rule still (something like that) bring my attention. I think Sybil invented whole "I was double agent and my daughter drunk moon tea" just to trick Jaime. Like Westernlander, she know only Kevan knew his plans, agreements and thought.

In the third (?) Tyrion chapter of ASoS Tywin breaks the news of Robb's marriage to the other Lannisters. Tyrion thinks that Tywin is remarkably relaxed about the Westerlings' betrayal, and Tywin then drops a hint that they have not truly joined Robb's side.