Robb and Jeyne ... was Sybell telling jaime the truth?

[Edward the Great]

I don't think there's any chance there was a triple cross.

But I would like to point out the cheesiness of the writing when Jaime meets Jeyne. Jeyne's mother waits until just that moment to remove Jeyne's crown? It makes it seam like they are putting on a show for Jaime.

Also, given that Jeyne's younger sister is accounted for, a triple cross would mean another castle bred girl posing as nobility, a subplot that Martin is already using elsewhere.

[Errant Bard]

But I would like to point out the cheesiness of the writing when Jaime meets Jeyne. Jeyne's mother waits until just that moment to remove Jeyne's crown?

No she does not. Jeyne appears with a scabbed forehead, not with a crown. And truly, you expected Sybell to force Jeyne to surrender the crown before Edmure yielded the castle, which happens merely at the end of the previous day? It wouldn't have sat very well with Brynden's "fuck you, the direwolf banner is still flying".

[gumby]

Two different people having different ideas about what the ideal hip size is "a goof of such epic proportions"? Really? I guess the real world is a goof of epic proportions too, then.

Not that this has anything to do with this thread, but, this is absolutely 100% correct, imo.

[Whatever]

Not that this has anything to do with this thread, but, this is absolutely 100% correct, imo.

:agree:

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Another goof of epic proportions, from a Bran chapter in ACOK: "In the days that followed, ravens arrived from other lordly houses, bearing regrets. The bastard of Dreadfort would not be joining them, the Mormonts and Karstarks had all gone south with Robb, Lord Locke was too old to dare the journey, Lady Flint was heavy with child, there was sickness at Widow's Watch." Personally, I think Arnolf Karstark is Jeyne Westerling.

[Daena the Defiant]

Another goof of epic proportions, from a Bran chapter in ACOK: "In the days that followed, ravens arrived from other lordly houses, bearing regrets. The bastard of Dreadfort would not be joining them, the Mormonts and Karstarks had all gone south with Robb, Lord Locke was too old to dare the journey, Lady Flint was heavy with child, there was sickness at Widow's Watch." Personally, I think Arnolf Karstark is Jeyne Westerling.

Well, that explains the discrepancy about the hips. It's shame that Jaime didn't notice the long straggly beard, though. ;)

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Well, that explains the discrepancy about the hips. It's shame that Jaime didn't notice the long straggly beard, though. ;)

Long years of conditioning by subliminally homoerotic squire-knight intimacy has inured Jaime to such trivial things as facial hair.

Not that this has anything to do with this thread, but, this is absolutely 100% correct, imo.

:agree:

While this consensus may not have anything to do with the thread, I have to say that for me the idea of a preconceived notion of how the world is supposed to be, such that deviation from such an ideal is an epic goof, is even more problematic than a theoretical on-topic agreement that subjectivity in viewpoints is an aberration (anorexia aficionados and fat fetishists notwithstanding).

[AvengingAryaFan]

No, it means "large enough to be adequate for childbirth". Which is not necessarily as big as what turns Jaime on.

...People certainly have differing views over where to draw the line between tall and average. This is not about the extremes: Cat is hardly restricting "good hips" to the top tenth percentile of size.

That's perfectly reasonable in RL. But this isn't simply an objective report of spontaneous thoughts - it's Martin telling readers precisely what he wants them to read. Some of us believe that Martin has a penchant for misdirection, for riddles, for hints about what is not shown explicitly. He even made the announcements of many of the actors for the TV series into riddles. Given the source (Martin), with his perfectionist attention to detail and his proclivity for hints and foreshadowing, we suspect that Martin is providing a hint for alert readers.

And indeed, the issue is definitely about more than hip size. It's about how incomprehensible it would be for Sybelle to perform a triple cross and really support the Starks when she's pretty much ensured that the Stark fighting force has been obliterated. And also about how futile it would be to foist a Jeyne imposter off on an army of Western neighbors that is all but guaranteed to contain men who know her my sight (her own father was outside the walls at the siege, for one).

The Blackfish and his flag is more likely about being too stubborn to admit defeat.

Sybell was apparently not privy to the RW; she thought she was to ensure a royal gaffe with no resultant child. Her assertion to Jaime that she would never have let Raynald attend had she known is believable, given that Raynald was sufficiently loyal to Robb to attempt to free Grey Wind, taking a couple of quarrels and falling in the river for his efforts. Indeed, it's possible that the use made of her efforts - the slaughter of people she may have liked in a massive and barbaric violation of guest right - has deeply offended her by making her an accomplice. Whatever her motivations, it would not be a triple cross but, at most, an attempt to play both ends.

Sybell seems seriously dedicated to her family, so I like the idea that Cat (or somebody) caught on to Sybell's pregnancy-prevention efforts and subverted them (or they simply failed), leaving Sybell to cover up a pregnant Jeyne as best she could. Alternatively or additionally, she could be privy to the cursed prophecy of Cersei and be setting up contingencies. In fact, she's had access to Robb's blood for some time, and if she's well-trained in the maegi arts may know more about the child than anyone. Her potential access to information about the future, combined with her ambiguous stance between the Lannisters and the Starks renders everything about the Westerling/Stark/Lannister connection very enigmatic.

In Jaime's interview with "Jeyne" and Sybell, "Jeyne" said almost nothing - Sybell said everything, except for the one outburst about how "Jeyne" loved Robb. That smacks of a lack of candor.

I'll let your old post introduce the Forley Prester non-comment:

As for Forley Prester's comment to Jaime:

"Best keep some archers near Lord Westerling's daughter as well."

Ser Forely Prester seemed taken aback. "Gawen's girl? She's-"

"-the Young Wolf's widow," Jaime finished, "and twice as dangerous as Edmure if she were ever to escape us."

"As you say my lord. She will be watched."

He was obviously about to remark on her youth and innocence, finding the idea of shooting down a 15 year old girl in cold blood a little shocking. Jaime points out how much of a potential threat she poses. There's really nothing suspicious about Prester's words or any reason to think he's a co-conspirator with some supposed Westerling triple-cross.

Also Jeyne did indeed speak in Jaime's presence:

"It was mine," Jeyne sobbed. "You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him."

The Forley exchange is p. 663 AFFC US hb, as the group including Edmure is preparing to travel to Casterly Rock.

Sure, it's just random dialog; George could be simply setting forth realistic speech in a parallel to his realistically discrepant hip descriptions. But if Jeyne was missing, Prester could well have decided not to question Jaime's assumption that she was traveling with them. Rank speculation I admit, but IMO the intriguing interplay b/t Jaime and Prester calls for some speculation.

And that's really the point. There may be no deception here at all, as you argue, but there are multiple oddnesses, permitting the facts to be other than as they seem on first glance. Add Sybell's stiffness and seeming hostility to Jaime, her uncertain loyalty and knowledge (her name means "female prophet" and she may have been taught maegi prophecy), the fact that her brother Rolph Spicer was richly rewarded for something apparently related to the RW that we don't know about - but which might well put him at odds with Sybell due to endangering Raynald (possibly getting him killed) - and the situation is highly murky, practically begging speculation but providing no firm basis for any specific theories.

[Edward the Great]

Martin is so good at red herrings we will have no idea what was important until after we read the story.

[Mickey2093]

Martin is so good at red herrings we will have no idea what was important until after we read the story.

don't you mean red weddings?

personally, i like sardines. on saltines. while wearing bluejeans. at least i did, when i was in my teens.

sorry - i don't know how or why that came out, but once it did, i figured ah hell, i'll post it anyway... lol

[Targaryen loyalist]

Hello everyone, my first post (but long-time lurker).

I have a question/opinion on this point... Is it possible that Jeyne is truly pregnant and Sybell told Jaimie a lie only when she sayd that her daughter was NOT pregnant?

I mean: Jayne gets pregnant, I don't think that they have abortion clinics in Westeros (mainly with the new Neo-Con High Septon B) ) and so they think to hide the pregnancy in order to avoid something worse (like Jayne killed or a risky abortion). We don't know when the conception could have happened, and if Jayne is still in the first months of pregnancy she could easily hide it.

Moreover a pregnancy can be hidden until the seventh month, and then they just have to say that she is ill until the birth of the baby (with all the civil war no-one will care about them).

[AvengingAryaFan]

I have a question/opinion on this point... Is it possible that Jeyne is truly pregnant and Sybell told Jaimie a lie only when she sayd that her daughter was NOT pregnant?

Perfectly possible. It doesn't do much to explain any of the little anomalies pointed out above, such as discrepant hip descriptions, odd interactions b/t Jaime and Ser Preston, and Edmure's smirk, but it's one of the ways Jeyne could be carrying Robb's heir. Moreover, it could have happened by plan or accident; the former would make it closer to the sense of the OP's questions.

[Lord Varys]

I always assumed that Rolph Spicer got his fair share just for being able to arrange the charade at the Crag which got Robb into Jeyne's bed. He and Sybell set this up, and they needed to shoot Robb with the 'poisoned arrow' just before Rolph could surrender the keep. I never thought he had played a part in the Red Wedding. Telling the Spicers about this would have been rather stupid...

[Mickey2093]

I mean: Jayne gets pregnant, I don't think that they have abortion clinics in Westeros (mainly with the new Neo-Con High Septon B) ) and so they think to hide the pregnancy in order to avoid something worse (like Jayne killed or a risky abortion). We don't know when the conception could have happened, and if Jayne is still in the first months of pregnancy she could easily hide it.

Moreover a pregnancy can be hidden until the seventh month, and then they just have to say that she is ill until the birth of the baby (with all the civil war no-one will care about them).

while they don't have abortion clinics, they do have tansy tea, such as it's called by catelyn, anyway, which is how hoster tully caused lysa's miscarriage of littlefingers child prior to marrying her off to jon arryn, and i cannot believe that sybel would not know how to make that and take care of any unwanted pregnancy.

I think the idea that the girl presented to jaime is not jeyne is still the most likely scenario. as someone said before, this isn't real life - it's a story, where mr. martin is telling us exactly what he wants us to know, specifically the repeated comments about jeynes hips. there are few instances where irrelevant information is given to us. sometimes the importance of something might be two books away, but it comes sooner or later. it's my belief that we will find that the girl presented to jaime is in fact not jeyne, and she is either still in riverrun hidden away somewhere out of notice, or she escaped with the blackfish...

[Mickey2093]

I always assumed that Rolph Spicer got his fair share just for being able to arrange the charade at the Crag which got Robb into Jeyne's bed. He and Sybell set this up, and they needed to shoot Robb with the 'poisoned arrow' just before Rolph could surrender the keep. I never thought he had played a part in the Red Wedding. Telling the Spicers about this would have been rather stupid...

And the LA police tried to frame OJ...

Think about it - why on earth would they go through such a complicated plot that could never be guaranteed to work out as they planned? if they were in on it at the crag when rob got hit with that arrow, they would have killed him - don't tell me they wouldn't have been able to, it would have been simple. jeyne nursed him herself - "comforting" him... i doubt that sybell was locked up at this point - otherwise jeyne would not have been so accomodating. thus sybell would have likely found it easy to poison rob, or get someone with a knife into his sickroom, or something, somehow, without going through this massive charade, risking everyone in her family's lives, with no guarantee of success... sell her daughter for tywin? not likely. and really, that's what it would amount to - selling her daughter.

[Kraken]

I think the 'point' of the POV discrepancy is just to tell us something about Jaime, Cat, and Robb. Cat was looking at her daughter-in-law and trying to see the bright side of things (she won't have trouble in childbirth). Jaime basically uses Cersei as his ideal standard of beauty (and Cersei is quite curvy) and he is seeing Jeyne in the context of THIS is the woman Robb lost a kingdom for? It's telling us she wasn't particularly special attractive-wise. It's the first male POV we get of Jeyne right?

Probably makes it a little more tragic in implying legit young love rather than Robb just being smitten by some super babe.

[tuthmoses]

i think the fact that cat says jeyne should have no problem having kids is put in to make the reader think 'ok so Jeyne is going to have robb's baby ... at that point this seems very obvious and the reader is just waiting for the point where it is revealed that jeyne is pregnant. But then boom bam red wedding robb is killed ... reader is still thinking okay but maybe jeyne is with child ... then we have the weird interaction with Jaime where the way in which things are described is just a little off ... In the back of my mind when I was reading that I was thinking ... "what is martin trying to slip past me" .... why does it feel like sybell is not being completely honest with him .. why does Jaime describe her most prominent feature (according to cat) differently. Something is not quite as it seems in that whole interaction. And the idea that the girl is in fact not Jeyne and that Sybell was not telling it exactly as it was is one was really jumping out at me personally.

[Blackfish Blues]

it's my belief that we will find that the girl presented to jaime is in fact not jeyne, and she is either still in riverrun hidden away somewhere out of notice, or she escaped with the blackfish...

As much as I love the Blackfish, the idea of the direwolf banner being raised again somewhere, and the idea of a tiny Stark growing in Jeyne's womb, I'm forced to say once again: no way she escaped with Brynden. Elderly man swims beneath portcullis, OK. Elderly man swims beneath portcullis with pregnant girl, no way.

However I support the theory that Pregnant Jeyne is in Riverrun. Has any Lannister or Frey bothered to take down the direwolf banner? Did the Tullys take it down? Or is it still there?

[Ecthelion]

Just how many months along would Jeyne have been by the time Riverrun was surrendered? I dont have the ability to look it up at the moment - but if she was only a few months along I don't see why she would have been any more incapable of swimming away than the Blackfish would have himself. It's dark, it's a river, and many of the soldiers were likely drinking or whoring.

If one person could sneak through there, so could two. And I'm not buying the notion that Jeyne couldnt just because she was pregnant.

I mean, for all we know Sybell could have stopped giving her the moon tea just in time for one last quickie before Robb left for the Red Wedding (provided she was really getting it at all). How far along would she have been if that was the case?

For the record, I'm undecided about this whole issue. But I dont think we can dismiss things like: she couldnt have escaped with Brynden if she was pregnant out of hand.

[Blackfish Blues]

For the record, I'm undecided about this whole issue. But I dont think we can dismiss things like: she couldnt have escaped with Brynden if she was pregnant out of hand.

I'd love it! But she's still a little girl, compared to one of the most badass warriors of Westeros. I can't see in my mind Brynden taking her along, with the risk of being seen by Lannister/Frey guards along the river etc, if ever she makes it under the portcullis.

If she really made it... YAY!