Wise Man's Fear Spoilers Thread (SPOILERS)

[Tes'thesula]

Not the only one Spoony. I thought Rothfuss writes incredibly well, and that keeps me reading, and there is a lot about the story I like - very much enjoying the speculation in this thread.

But at the same time, for such a huge book, the story only feels like it is moving sideways.

Start off with the Chandrian, then we break to the University, break to the Maer, break to the hunt and Felurian and then the Ademre... never feels like we actually finish a story arch.

A thousand page book and the most we learn about the Chandrian and the Amyr was in a different book. Denna still eludes Kvothe and he still obsesses after her. I don't know, as entertaining as it was (and I felt many of the 'sideline' sections could have been trimmed down), Kvothe could have summed it up as he did with the shipwreck and we would be in pretty much the same place.

Couldn't help but feel disappointed after I finished, there was very little pay off, and now, presumably, another long wait for book 3.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tes,

I think Rothfuss is attempting to write this as a biography of Kvothe. Few people's real lives have firm narrative arcs. Things simply happen when they happen and earlier stuff you're working one if frequently interrupted by new events. It makes sense, at least to me.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tes,

I think Rothfuss is attempting to write this as a biography of Kvothe. Few people's real lives have firm narrative arcs. Things simply happen when they happen and earlier stuff you're working one if frequently interrupted by new events. It makes sense, at least to me.

[Spoony]

Great to have somebody on my side.

this is a song of ice and fire Forum.

I figured people here would want something a little more complex than this book.

Kvothe the innkeeper might be an interesting character for all we know, but Kvothe in the narrative is really quite dull.

I really wish Rothfuss was less cliche with Kvothe's relationship with Denna. It would have been refreshing if she was the one pursuing Kvothe rather than what we get.

The fact that she is in a bad relationship with another man who beats her isn't very thrilling either.

Does Rothfuss have to approach his romantic arc in such a stereotypical way?

The only thing we get in this book is a solution to Kvothe's financial worries.

1000 pages for that.

[Mexal]

Great to have somebody on my side.

this is a song of ice and fire Forum.

I figured people here would want something a little more complex than this book.

Kvothe the innkeeper might be an interesting character for all we know, but Kvothe in the narrative is really quite dull.

We like lots of different things.

[Spoony]

We like lots of different things.

Including poorly crafted books it seems.

I just feel cheated by this book.

It was way too drawn out, and it was chalk full of dull formulaic crap.

Like some god-awful middle chapter that seemed to go on forever full of pointless isolated incidents that may as well have been a collection of short stories for all the continuity or importance they seem to add to the narrative.

This book makes me angry.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Spoony,

"Poorly crafted book" in your opinion. That's not a fact you're stating there.

[Slick Mongoose]

Spoony, we get it.

Can we have our fun thread back now?

[Slick Mongoose]

I was thinking about Taborlin the Great's copper sword from one of the stories. Why would he have one? As pointed out in the book, it wouldn't be very sharp. Two possibilities:

1) Taborlin knew the name of copper, and thus could keep it sharp.

Or:

2) Iron reduces the ability to name. This is why namers have become weaker over the years.

Now 1) is perfectly plausible, but I like 2). :)

[Spoony]

Spoony,

"Poorly crafted book" in your opinion. That's not a fact you're stating there.

Is that all you've got?

Of course my value judgments are subjective.

Sheesh.

Slick Mongoose makes a good point.

You may have your thread back.

But I hope more people show up who share my disinterest in this book. It deserves such.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Spoony,

No, I got more. I simply dislike such absolute statements regarding an inherently subjective topic of discussion.

You don't like reading the story of someone's life it appears. Out of curiosity have you seen "The Curious Case of Benjermin Button"? If so, did you like it? It's structure is quite similar to these books. The story of a man's life told over a present day framing structure. I love that movie.

[polishgenius]

Like some god-awful middle chapter that seemed to go on forever full of pointless isolated incidents that may as well have been a collection of short stories for all the continuity or importance they seem to add to the narrative.

I don't really care that you dislike the book and I can't disagree that parts of it were overlong and it doesn't have the structural elegance the first did, but if you think the middle chapters had no importance to the narrative then you simply weren't paying attention.

[Angeleyes]

I did not like the writing style.

Particularly the descriptions that Kvothe/Rothfuss overused - like the bit about his ramston steel Allar.

How many times was that mentioned?

Here, you are assuming that Rothfuss writes like an idiot. You think that because he chooses to use some words over and over again he is a bad writer. We believe that his repeated use of words signify important things for us the readers to pay attention to. For example Kvothe has an allar like Ramiston Steel. Remember when he tries to buy a ramiston steel dagger from the tinker? The Tinker tells him it is strong, but far too brittle. Kvothe can no longer do sympathy (at least not on his previous level). Aha! Rothfuss uses that term for a reason, not because he cannot think of any metalurgical alloys in the setting to compare allar to :rolleyes:.

Why does Rothfuss consistently tell us that Kvothe is 'Edema Ruh to the marrow of his bones?' Certainly it could be because Rothfuss is a bad writer. Again, bear with me, let us assume he isn't. When Kvothe names Felurian, he knows her to the marrow of her bones. Maybe 'marrow of your bones' is an indicator of true self, his true self is Edema Ruh.

People talk about how they think Kvothe is a "dark" character - but he clearly isn't.

Murdering a group of rapists is not dark. It might be considered harsh - but it reads as a lazy move by the author to make him seem more sympathetic. Like a bad action movie starring Jean Claude Van Damm - where the protaganist is trying to murder people who raped/murdered his wife/daughter.

It is just a bit move to make the character more 'heroic'.

1) This is character development. Kvothe murdered all of these people in cold blood. He poisoned them, then slowly and deliberately killed them. Then hunted them. He was justice, and jury and felt no remorse. He did this because he knew it was the right thing to do. This is a terribly dark place to take the Kvothe who consistently makes bad decisions, over and over. If Kvothe is ok killing bandits because they aren't Ruh, what happens the next time he kills people, but he turns out to be wrong?

2) What if this story is put here not because of character development, but in order to present us with 'Open Circle' lore? That seems like a bit of useless nonsense unless we will continue to find out about it. Maybe Kvothe runs across Edema Ruh in the future, and they know of him. He claims hospitality, and they don't give it? What if they deny him his final family and brand him with the open circle giving him 'the one scar that isn't silvery and thin.' That could do a number on his name and personality couldn't it?

While your opinions are your own, I hardly think they qualify as relevant in a topic consisting of speculation based on The Wise Man's Fear. You are allowed to decide that the book is poorly written, full of 2d juvenile characters, and even meandering. But please don't post over and over trying to gin up support and act indignant when we get upset about it. Maybe a careful reread or three is in order before you give us another post detailing how much you hated this book but are looking forward to the next one because it has soo much potential.

Shoo

[Gaston de Foix]

In relation to those who criticised the Wise Man's Fear, let me just say my excitement was tremendous when I realised I could purchase the book 4.30 hours before midnight in USA from kindle uk.

So I obviously loved the Name of the Wind, and was waiting frantically for Wise Man's Fear which I finished in 16 hours (which including 2 hours of sleep and five hours of work).

There are strengths to this novel and there are problems. However the strengths are largely old ones, polish of writing, gift of characterisation and abundant intelligence in world building.

The problems, well in contrast to those who found TNOW slow, I thought it had reasonable pacing for a first novel. After all, a great deal happened and the whole world had a novelty and freshness to it. The scenes in Tarbean for instance were brutal and poignant at the same time and beautifully executed for a bildungsroman.

Even in WMF a reasonable number of plot threads are advanced. Where it falls short is two-fold. The novel has become somewhat fragmentary in character. For instance both the Road to Levinshir incident and the time he spent among the Ademre could just as easily have been set earlier or later in Kvothe's life. Not until the very end of his time in Ademre with the set-piece approach to the sword tree do we see Kvothe as Kvothe the Legend to be and then the reaction from his teachers is over the top and forced. When Kvothe revisits Tarbean, it almost robs Tarbean of the vastness and fear that it inspired in TNOW. Rothfuss already played the stranger in the midst of them card with Kvothe's visit to Trapis after having resolved to go to the university. To play it again seems false.

The other weakness is the visibly flagging energy towards the end of the book. The scene where Kvothe saves Denna's life by calling the wind for instance is one of the poorest executed hero moments in brevity, flatness and predictably. Speaking of which the Denna situation is simply bewildering. That despite saving her life yet again, she views him with hostility and mistrust, well it just makes her enormously unattractive as a character. Her real relationship with the men in her life is never explained, but even Rothfuss' deliberate ambiguity and multiple attempts from Deoch to Fela to justify her cannot explain or save her bewildering jealousy at Kvothe. She just lacks solidity and balance as a character.

Beyond that, some of Rothfuss' plotting has become obvious; the poisoning of the Maer, the identity of the mysterious woman as Denna, the convenient killing of various people in line for the throne of Vint by duel etc, there were moments where I just went, no shit chief after the denouement. Perhaps a mediocre second novel, with lots of plot points lined up was what he needed for a tremendous third novel, if so, well we can excuse that. Other plot points, such as Bredon as Master Ash, and the hint of a relationship of blood between Lady Lackless and Kvothe are handled well, and the deep mythology of the series is still engrossing.

We haven't seen the whole trilogy promised in the Wise Man's Fear. The anger of a gentle man, such as it was, happened in TNOW, the sea in storm conveniently happens offstage, and a night without moon, well at least Rothfuss, has explained that one.

One more bugbear, which I find tremendously irritating. Rothfuss needs new beta-readers because the ones he currently has can't catch continuity or other errors. So for instance we are told in TNOW that Sim's father is a duke in Atur (although there is some question as to the strength and wealth of his duchy). This is repeated to Kvothe the relentless autodidact and genius as a new fact to Kvothe in WMF, who seems to have conveniently forgotten this about his close friend.

[Slick Mongoose]

2) What if this story is put here not because of character development, but in order to present us with 'Open Circle' lore? That seems like a bit of useless nonsense unless we will continue to find out about it. Maybe Kvothe runs across Edema Ruh in the future, and they know of him. He claims hospitality, and they don't give it? What if they deny him his final family and brand him with the open circle giving him 'the one scar that isn't silvery and thin.' That could do a number on his name and personality couldn't it?

Why would they disown him? For killing people who killed Edema Ruh?

(I think that scene would have been more interesting, by the way, if they hadn't admitted to killing the Edema Ruh. Just leave it a little bit ambiguous.

[TeaSpoon]

Well, in Skarpi's story he says that the losers of the great battle (when Lanre died) were sealed behind doors of stone. Although obviously not all of them, because the war continued.

Maybe stone doors are general use prisons? There may be loads of stone doors all over the place, each holding something/someone different.....

Okay, I completely missed that.

Here's my new theory. The waystones were created by the namers to close off the passage between Faerie and the mortal world. However, Fearie is not a single nation. There are different kingdoms or provinces. For instance, Bast describes the Mael as being far away from where he's from, and apparently it's filled with evil creatures.

Bast shook his head. "It seemed like one of the Mahael-uret, Reshi. A skin dancer." He frowned as he said it, sounding anything but certain.

Kvothe raised an eyebrow. "It isn’t one of your kind?"

Bast’s normally affable expression sharpened into a glare. "It was not 'my kind,'" he said indignantly. "The Mael doesn’t even share a border with us. It’s as far away as anywhere can be in the Fae."

The Skin Dancers haven't been seen for a long time, it would appear. It's possible that all the portals to the Mael was closed off. Other places, like Bast's home, still have cracks in the wall where a clever Fae might slip through on moonless nights. However, without wide open passage ways, it became increasingly difficult to wage war, until the war suffocated and died.

We do know that the namers didn't win. They got close, though. After the battle of Tor Drossen, where the losers were sealed behind doors of stone, the war went on.

So the war continued, but with Lanre and Lyra fighting side by side the future seemed less grim. Soon everyone knew the story of how Lanre had died, and how his love and Lyra’s power had drawn him back. For the first time in living memory people could speak openly of peace without being seen as fools or madmen.

Years passed. The empire’s enemies grew thin and desperate and even the most cynical of men could see the end of the war was drawing swiftly near.

Until rumors started that Lyra had died. And then Lanre and the chandrians destroyed every city left in the empire but one. And I'm pretty sure one city wasn't enough to defeat the shapers, especially without Lanre and Lyra. So the war ended in a stalemate. The empire was all but destroyed and the shapers were, more or less, contained in the Fae.

[Slick Mongoose]

So the war ended in a stalemate. The empire was all but destroyed and the shapers were, more or less, contained in the Fae.

That sounds about right to me. Although while Lanre was destoying the empire I doubt he'd have left the shapers alone, he was about the destruction of everything, rather than just changing sides.

[Angeleyes]

Why would they disown him? For killing people who killed Edema Ruh?

The Edema Ruh clearly have self esteem/image issues. Imagine if at the end of Book 3 'Kvothe The Kingkiller' is looking for solace/reconsiliation/simplicity and tries to join an Edema Ruh troupe he meets. But the Ruh don't want to be identified with Kvothe, they aren't evil and they aren't bandits. So they make him leave the circle. I could imagine that totally completing the change from Kvothe to Kote. Robbing him of his spirit, stealing his core identity. Taking away from him the marrow of his bones if you will.

Just something I've been thinking about the past few days. Much much less concrete than alot of the riddling and song explanation that the rest of you have been doing.

[TeaSpoon]

That sounds about right to me. Although while Lanre was destoying the empire I doubt he'd have left the shapers alone, he was about the destruction of everything, rather than just changing sides.

It seems to me that the best way to accomplish this would be to open the passages again and rekindle the war. Maybe that's what the chandrians are after. And it seems that they have, at least partially, succeeded. The Skin Dancers haven't been seen for ages, even in the Fae. Something happened that let them loose on the world.

Another thing, remember Skarpi's second story in which Aleph changes Tehlu and his friends into angels? It seems to me that changing people into something else is a Shaper art and not something a Namer would do. I thought that Aleph was the ruler of the single city left in the empire, but it's possible that he's instead one of the leaders of the Shapers. However, Selitos was there, talking to Aleph, minus one eye, indicating that the Namers and Shapers made peace with each other.

Maybe the Namers and Shapers recognized a greater danger than either side: Lanre and the Chandrians.

In that story, the Amyr were created to fight the chandrians specifically and the Angels were created to fight general injustice (which includes the chandrians). Part of their duties must be to keep the passages between the two world closed - and maybe keep the prisons from breaking open - which is what the Amyr have been doing with the Lockless Door.

[Sariel]

Man, I'm impressed with some of the stuff people have found. The Lackless - Kvothe connection passed me by without even a glimmer.

As for Kvothe's seeming weakness. I don't think he's dying and I certainly don't think he's lost his powers by somehow changing his name. Nor do I believe his Alar was shattered thus making him powerless.

I simply see this as the story of a broken man, aged well beyond his years by a final betrayal, or loss if you will. Just like his fighting, magic demands a strenght of focus and will, something he no longer seems capable of. Look at the last fight. He still knew how to go through the motions, but it seemed lackluster and without heart.

As for what happened, it seems obvious it's connected to Denna. She's dead. He killed her. She joined the Chandrian in their new world order. She married ambrose in open defiance of his love. Or perhaps he failed her. The betrayal was his own and it crushed him.... or something else altogether.

So, I don't think Kvothe's weakness is a question of arcana. He has lost his spirit, pure and simple, and like many other broken men he has banished himself to the fringes of civilization waiting quietly for death. It's a fairly common theme after all, and though I enjoy the books as great page turners Rothfuss has shown himself predictable in his love of cliches. Bast tries to reawaken his spirits, becoming more and more desperate. What would be the point if all this was a result of some curse?