Harrold Hardyng's love of life

[Lady Winter Rose]

I think that Harry the Heir, who is secretly betrothed to Sansa, would trick Alayne and possible left her deflowered.

Reason why I think Sansa would be tricked:

1)she is naive and weak on handsome knights

2)Harrold is...khmm _experienced and khm..._mature

3)Sansa is not so smart or seductive to play Harrold along

4)we have seen that Harrold is not interested in long term relationship

5)as for real true relationship, Sansa would ruin it with her courtesy, unrealistic idealism of love, untrained brain and with hiding true herself. Harrold would play a part with his womanizering.

Are you agreeing with me?

[Rhodan]

Sounds probable. Make a way for Eddard Stone/Snow....

[Buckwheat]

I actually never understood if lady Waynwood and Harry know who Alayne really is. It would be quite strange if they agreed on the betrothal believing that she was Littlefinger's natural daughter, but it seems also strange to me that Littlefinger would tell them (otherwise doing his best to keep Alayne's identity a secret).

So, if Harry (or at least lady Waynwood) knows (or finds out quickly) that Alayne=Sansa Stark, he will marry her and he will not leave her as she is the heiress of the North and also a noble-born - we see throughout the series that it was considered a little different if a man slept with a noble woman who he was not married to or a common woman he was not married to. Just because he slept with two - common, I think - women, it does definitely not mean that he will be so foolish as to abandon her and the possibility of ever gaining any political advantages or (doubtful, I know) honour of being married to a Stark. Besides, if it gets widely known that he abandoned his rightful wife, the chances of his getting married to another noble woman will be much smaller than now.

Well, if he does not know about her little secret (which makes much more sense to me), he will definitely not marry her unless Littlefinger promises him and lady Wanywood something REALLY big. But, as foolish as Sansa is - or was, more precisely, as she improved much in the last two books - I do not believe she will allow him to seduce her unless they are married.

P. S.: Does the title of that thread refer to the fact that Harry loved life or that his love should long the whole life (Harrold's love for life)?

[Valmy]

I think that Harry the Heir, who is secretly betrothed to Sansa, would trick Alayne and possible left her deflowered.

Reason why I think Sansa would be tricked:

1)she is naive and weak on handsome knights

2)Harrold is...khmm _experienced and khm..._mature

3)Sansa is not so smart or seductive to play Harrold along

4)we have seen that Harrold is not interested in long term relationship

5)as for real true relationship, Sansa would ruin it with her courtesy, unrealistic idealism of love, untrained brain and with hiding true herself. Harrold would play a part with his womanizering.

Are you agreeing with me?

No.

First how would not marrying into one of the oldest and most blue blooded families in Westeros be a great trick? Haha! I will NOT have a claim to Lord of the North! I R teh playa! Yeah...that makes no sense. Besides Sansa is not likely to even see the guy until their wedding.

Secondly um Sansa believed that stuff when she was 12...not least because she was taught that stuff. She is not 12 anymore and actually I think showed a ton of guts through her ordeal. I think she would be more careful before doing the same thing she did before.

[Ecthelion]

I don't think Harry or Lady Waynwood know the truth about Alayne/Sansa. I think it's much more likely that they realize that marrying Alayne would be advantageous as Littlefinger is the new power-broker in the Vale. He also is in control of Robert Arryn, who stands in the way of Harry & his inheritance. They also would not suspect much about Littlefinger trying to set up a strong match for his daughter - even a bastard one.

Think about it: He has (a tenuous) claim as Lord Protector of the Vale. He also is currently in possession of the true heir. Harry is guaranteed nothing, even if Robert dies soon - as they are not really in a strong position to act. Possession is 9/10ths of the law and all that.

By marrying Harry to Alayne, they earn the gratitude of Littlefinger, who could very well appoint Harry in a position of power now - if he doesnt knock off Robert soon. It's worth it to them to guarantee that they acquire the Vale in the first place. Saving him for a "better" match does nothing if Robert survives or if Littlefinger seizes control permanently and does away with the Arryn line altogether.

What they don't realize is that even in this Littlefinger is playing them, as it seems he intends to unveil Sansa as the heir to Winterfell after she is married to Harry and they are secured as the rulers of the Vale - causing all the bannermen therefore to be pledged to the cause.

[Valmy]

What they don't realize is that even in this Littlefinger is playing them, as it seems he intends to unveil Sansa as the heir to Winterfell after she is married to Harry and they are secured as the rulers of the Vale - causing all the bannermen therefore to be pledged to the cause.

Thus giving him nominal power over the Riverlands, the Vale, and the North. I wonder what it would take for Littlefinger to be satisfied.

[Whatever]

Sounds probable. Make a way for Eddard Stone/Snow....

Wow, is this a theory? I kinda like it :D

BTW, sansa is not naive anymore, for sure

[Amae Koromo]

I think the opposite is more likely (as in, she seduces him without having sex and somehow he dies of a "disease" soon after the wedding night).

She is pretty smart and lost her "naivety" and she will have LF by her side.

And... there are many guys attracted to her... LF, that singer, Joffrey, Sandor, Tyrion, Theon... And for most of them she was not even trying.

[trio]

LF is a high Lord now, Lord of Harrenhal. Even if "Alayne" cannot inherit Harrenhal, a case could perhaps be made for the Castle to go to LF's grandchildren, which I'm sure the Waynwoods would be pondering. Let alone that any fool can see LF is someone you want to have in your family if you're ambitious. He's risen like a rocket.

So no, I don't think they'd need huge persuading to accept a bastard. But LF isn't taking any chances, as is his wont, and is ordering Sansa to be fascinating and charming.

Harry won't dump her - he'd be a bloody fool. But the wedding will never happen, as Tyrion isn't gonna die anytime soon.

Harry is a cipher to show the reader how Sansa's views on handsome men have been changed utterly by her experiences. I'd bet good money she no longer falls for looks and charm, and will find the whole thing a trial.

[Whatever]

i think LF will make the wedding canceled. He can just go discreetly and ask to the HS... or, at least, this is his plan

[nan1973]

I think LF's bastard daughter marrying Harry is a trade off for Robert's mysterious death, probably by taking too much of that sleeping drug they give him. I don't think they realize who Alayne is. And if we were to also remove Harry from the equation (after he's married to Sansa) that would leave Sansa in a very good position in the Vale and for making a claim in the North.

[Lord Godric]

No.

First how would not marrying into one of the oldest and most blue blooded families in Westeros be a great trick? Haha! I will NOT have a claim to Lord of the North! I R teh playa! Yeah...that makes no sense. Besides Sansa is not likely to even see the guy until their wedding.

Well it is debated whether Harry knows who Sansa really is. I got the impression that Littlefinger planned to reveal who she was after the marriage was done, then securing Sansa as Lady of the Vale and Winterfell and securing both powers for himself indirectly.

I honestly don't see the whole storyline with Harry the Heir actually happening.

Secondly um Sansa believed that stuff when she was 12...not least because she was taught that stuff. She is not 12 anymore and actually I think showed a ton of guts through her ordeal.

Yes, she is now 14. :unsure:

[trio]

i think LF will make the wedding canceled. He can just go discreetly and ask to the HS... or, at least, this is his plan

The wedding? Do you mean the marriage to Tyrion?

If so, that's not gonna happen. Firstly, LF at no point mentions annulment - he only talks in terms of widowhood.

The reason is because he's no fool. The High Septon wants Sansa's head on a plate. She's a Kingslayer, remember? LF can't reveal her to ANYONE until she's been fully pardoned.

Re: Annulment: Here on the forums from time to time I've seen people ( I'm not referring to you, Lady Lyanna, but others in other threads) who talk about annulment like it's the easiest and most obvious solution in the world. And I just think "Have we met the same High Septon??!" :stunned:

I honestly don't see the whole storyline with Harry the Heir actually happening.

Yeah, I think it's not going to be that important a storyline, really.

[Lummel]

If there is one thing that the ASOIAF should have taught us it's that Littlefinger's word shouldn't be taken at face value.

I've a sneaking suspicion that what Littlefinger wants is to know Sansa in the biblical sense, after all he is still romantically / erotically obsessed with Catelyn and there is little Sansa on hand looking more beautiful and more like her mother everyday.

If that is the case then Littlefinger's plan is probably more along the lines of Sansa marries Harrold, Harrold's philandering disenchants Sansa, Littlefinger 'comforts' Sansa, Sansa becomes pregnant and has 'harrold's' child who mysteriously takes after his 'grandfather' (wash and repeat several times). At some stage Sweetrobin (medical complications - he was always a sickly child) and Harrold die (hunting accident, called out over adultery, surfeit of lampreys - the possibilities are endless) . Sansa and Littlefinger's child hailed as the next lord, Littlefinger continues to rule as regent for his grandchild/child.

Having said that with the appearance of the Mad Mouse in the last Sansa/ Alayne chapter opens up the situation and there is no guarantee that Littlefinger will get his way.

[Sir Tobi]

I was always wondering whether Littlefinger knows, that the wedding between Sansa and Tyrion wasn't consummated. We know, that she told her aunt Lysa the truth, but does Littlefinger know as well?

If Yes, than why would he tell Sansa, that the wedding with Harry must wait, until she is widdowed? If its not consummated its not valid anyway. Why did he lie to Sansa? She wasn't thrilled over the excitement to marry.

On a sidenote. Did Littlefinger promise Lady Waynwood to get his Bastarddaughter legitimized by the Throne?

[A wilding]

If its not consummated its not valid anyway.

It is still valid, but as long as it remains unconsummated it can be annulled. However only the High Septon or a Council of the Faith can perform this annulment. This is all explained in a conversation between Tywin and Tyrion in ASoS.

So, as stated upthread, LF either has to get the High Septon to perform an annulment or he has to have Tyrion killed.

[Valmy]

Yes, she is now 14. :unsure:

The past two years have been growing experiences.

[Valmy]

i think LF will make the wedding canceled. He can just go discreetly and ask to the HS... or, at least, this is his plan

Is it? I just figured they would announce the marriage invalid and have any army to back that up.

[trio]

So, as stated upthread, LF either has to get the High Septon to perform an annulment or he has to have Tyrion killed.

Yup. And frankly it's far more feasible to try to kill Tyrion (does anyone doubt he's trying to get that organised as we speak?)

Even IF Sansa had never been suspected of doing a single thing that was immoral/murderous/against the Gods - and even IF the High Septon was a sane and rational person and not some crazy zealot who flays people for fun -

they've still been married for about a year now, and logically anyone would be sceptical of her claim to maidenhood after all that time. She'd have to be examined at the very least. And that didn't turn out so well for Margery.

It just ain't gonna happen, folks. Besides, it's FAR more dramatic to keep them married - it means there's gonna be OMG!Drama when Tyrion eventually returns and everyone realises there's this pesky legal tie still intact that nobody wants. 10 to 1 Sansa and Tyrion meet again and the shit will hit the fan. GRRM didn't marry them off together just to have it quietly annulled in the background, did he? That's just boring.

[Alexia]

they've still been married for about a year now, and logically anyone would be sceptical of her claim to maidenhood after all that time.

Except Tyrion was being openly mocked over her virginity during their marriage. And Olenna still wanted her for Willas because of it.

Besides, it's FAR more dramatic to keep them married - it means there's gonna be OMG!Drama when Tyrion eventually returns and everyone realises there's this pesky legal tie still intact that nobody wants. 10 to 1 Sansa and Tyrion meet again and the shit will hit the fan. GRRM didn't marry them off together just to have it quietly annulled in the background, did he? That's just boring.

That being said, I totally agree with this point. I expect that Tyrion is really angry with her - in fact, that he may hate her by now. OTOH, Sansa's been softening a little towards him since she realizes that he could have treated her much worse than he did. I do think that the possibility of an annulment was mentioned for a reason, and I do think that's the likely outcome of their marriage by the end of the series unless Tyrion dies or takes the black (which I don't think is likely). And I eagerly anticipate reading about her reunion with Tyrion and its eventual outcome.

That being said, I don't believe that Kingslaying is considered against the gods - I think you have that mixed up with kinslaying. Its a crime, to be sure. In fact, it is treason. But all things being equal, the new HS is a sparrow and does anyone remember Joffrey's abuses of the commons? Of course, she'd need to give him something in exchange for her annulment and my best guess would be that he'd want her to forswear the old gods and commit herself to the Seven. For Lady Stark of Winterfell to do so would be a major coup well worth giving her an annulment to the kinslaying, kingslaying, murderous little monkey demon!