Subterranean to release signed limiteds of Game and Clash!

[Geddon]

What I am very surprised by in your post is the fact that you have spent all that money on a lettered edition of these books and aren't really aware of how book collecting works. As far as value to a collector, the 'true first' of the limiteds will always be the most desirable, despite the inferior artwork that has nothing to do with A Song of Ice and Fire. (Sorry Mr Jones, but you mailed it on that one.) And if what you say is true and they became 'historical oddities', well, that would only augment their value on the collector's market. That's pretty much how it works.

I'm a book collector, I'm very well aware of how the collectors market works. It's not as simple as "firsts are always the most valuable", many factors come into play to determine the value of one edition relative to another. The one factor that has the biggest effect on value is demand relative to supply.

Demand for the Meisha books was high because they were the only path toward collecting a full limited/lettered set. That will no longer be the case, so much of the demand has now gone. The only people left who will want the Meisha editions are Martin completists (and possibly fans of Howe and Jones). So demand has dropped from thousands of people to a handful. The value will drop as a result, it is inevitable.

If the Meisha Merlin editions were vastly superior to the coming Sub Press ones (say the Meisha ones were leatherbound, with an additional short story or something else exclusive) then this would help maintain the value - their increased desirability as objects would compensate for their orphan status. However this is not going to be the case, they are going to be roughly equivalent in terms of features, except the Meisha ones form part of a never completed set while the Sub Press editions will (perhaps) form a complete set.

In general book collectors and fans will want the complete matching set and won't care about the Meisha odd-ones-out.

I'm sorry that you are upset, though. It's really too bad. If you want to be mad at anyone, be mad at the incompetent though well-meaning guys at Meisha Merlin.

There's enough ire to spread around Meisha, Sub Press and GRRM. Meisha were incompetent, Sub Press intentionally violated one of the fundamental rules of publishing limited editions by changing the feature set mid-series and GRRM let them do it rather than insisting the series be kept uniform.

But please keep in mind that he is doing this to make up for that mistake to his fans. He isn't trying to soak us for more money. He isn't trying to bleed his fans dry. He has a television show and stands to make a metric fuck-ton of cash when ADWD is published in a few months. Let's be honest here, his share of the limited edition cash is not something he would miss if it were not there.

I fear the fact he's going to be rolling in it isn't going to be much comfort to me, particularly as I watch the value of books I've acquired at significant cost drop sharply.

I imagine the people he sold his remaining copies of AGoT to for over $1000 will be similarly annoyed, as will the people who just bought copies from Kishkeking at great cost.

George will genuinely be upset to hear that some folks are upset, because he genuinely just wants to give his fans what they should have received in the first place.

Yes, well he's going to achieve it by screwing over those fans and collectors who were motivated enough to spend lots of hard earned money to acquire the first set of limited editions.

[Justinian]

Oh and Stego, it's great that you were asked your opinion on the matter. I can say that this is the first I've heard of it and I've got one of the handful of unbroken lettered sets out there. So I'm not sure how the list of who to ask was compiled but it seems dubiously comprised to me.

[Stego]

Stego, I don't think that's a fair summary of the situation. This isn't an altruistic move "for the fans". If Subterranean Press didn't think this would be profitable for them, they wouldn't do it. This is not a criticism; you have to make money to stay in business. But lets not kid ourselves that this is a favor to us.

Yes, I believe Sub Press is doing it to make money. However, I believe Mr. Shafer also has a passion for his work. I don't always share his taste, but I can tell that he is passionate about the books he is producing. No one is going to make a billion dollars on a special edition of Only Forward by Michael Marshall Smith, but it sure as hell made me happy.

As for George, I believe him when he says he is doing it for the fans.

As to why he asked me my opinion as a collector, I am a long time member of the BWB and I have one of the largest GRRM signed collections in the world. If he does not know you, it would be hard for him to ask, I assume.

[Stego]

Yes, well he's going to achieve it by screwing over those fans and collectors who were motivated enough to spend lots of hard earned money to acquire the first set of limited editions.

As one of those fans, I disagree.

Also, Geddon, I think you are way off base on projected value. If this TV show takes off, there will be ten thousand fans wanting the Meisha Merlin edition for every 100 who want it now.

[Justinian]

Do you have an unbroken lettered set, Stego? I'm not being persnickety, I am genuinely curious as it would tend to influence how much weight I give your opinion. I assume you see why that is?

edit: Stego, I agree with you on some points. I do think that if the show takes off there will be lots of interest in the MM editions. But I think that's an issue of a bigger total pool of interest in ASoIaF. If SubPress didn't re-publish the earlier volumes I think the interest would be potentially even higher. As I said, I don't think either of us can be sure about the value of the MM editions in this very unusual series of events.

All I *can* be sure of is that I have to find another $700 to budget towards books that I have never heard about before.

[Stego]

Do you have an unbroken lettered set, Stego? I'm not being persnickety, I am genuinely curious as it would tend to influence how much weight I give your opinion. I assume you see why that is?

Nope. I don't. It was sold out while I was still in the Marine Corps. Not enough cash back then.

I don't see what the difference is, however. I have a numbered set. It's slightly less money. Would you like to trade with me? I'll give you the difference in cash per volume and then you can pay 100 dollars less for the two new ones.

[Justinian]

Thank you for your kind offer, but I will suffer with the lettered set :)

[Stego]

Thank you for your kind offer, but I will suffer with the lettered set :)

Thought so.

[Stego]

All I *can* be sure of is that I have to find another $700 to budget towards books that I have never heard about before.

I understand that, mate. I am hoping that Mr. Shafer takes his time in releasing these volumes. One per year or longer would be wonderful. We all know that we will be waiting quite some time for The Winds of Winter or whatever the heck the next book is going to be called.

[nicodimas]

George will genuinely be upset to hear that some folks are upset, because he genuinely just wants to give his fans what they should have received in the first place.

Yes, well he's going to achieve it by screwing over those fans and collectors who were motivated enough to spend lots of hard earned money to acquire the first set of limited editions.

Come on he just set the price at the $XXXX price range! Nothing wrong with that then...

Now the price has bottomed out more than likely in my eyes. Though to most rational people $xxxx was hard fought for and earned and spent on something with perceived value that the man bolstered himself. I was bitter when he set the price for the market and raised it back then as it made my copy very very tough to get. So important lesson is learned here for those watching.....

Also, Geddon, I think you are way off base on projected value. If this TV show takes off, there will be ten thousand fans wanting the Meisha Merlin edition for every 100 who want it now.

We will see...I just dont see it as I see the MM's just got wiped in value...gone. The Subpresses took there place in this vacuum..time will tell. Either way will pan out eventually.

[Stego]

George did not set the price of the books. Bidders on eBay did.

[Sword of the Morning]

I not only collect books, I collect many other things as well. Lord of the Rings statues, Sideshow statues, fine art, Disney animation cels, Star Wars, swords, posters, etc, etc.

In my opinion, Geddon's view of things is more accurate than Stego's although in this case both have some merit.

There can be NO DOUBT that with the re-release of the Subterranean Press versions of GoT and CoK the MM versions will be devalued. No matter the circumstances, what SP has done is that they have provided an avenue for those people with missing volumes to complete the set WITHOUT having to get the MM versions. Even if the HBO series does well, readership balloons etc, etc, etc the original MM versions will not be worth as much if there were NO OTHER versions available. In other words, if GoT is worth 1000 now and 10,000 in a few years when the HBO series has won multiple Emmy's and is the next Sopranos, it would have been worth 14,000 dollars if the Subterranean Press GoT had not been released as well.

By the way, what SP is doing is usually very frowned upon in the collectibles world. Part of the integrity of the process counts upon the fact that you will not dilute the market by simply making more of what has become rare. It eventually destroys the collectability of the product and also means that in the future, collectors will tend to trust the producer less.

HOWEVER, there are extenuating circumstances:

1. The Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings version produced by Subterranean Press is not a simple re-issue. In point of fact, they are almost entirely NEW books with new artists, new binding, new slipcases, etc. This does a great deal to blunt the drop in value of the Meisha Merlin edition. While it is arguable how good Jones' art is, I am doubtful they can find an artist that can surpass the work of John Howe, one of the greatest fantasy artists working today. As such, the original Meisha Merlin versions are still going to be worth quite a bit because they remain UNIQUE.

2. For those of us who own unbroken sets, this tends not to hurt us as much. We simply have to buy the SP versions as well and exclusivity remains ours. Even if you decide NOT to do so, it will only result in a few more broken sets as those who purchase the SP GoT and CoK can not get any future novels because those rights still are owned by you who bought Dance with Dragons.

3. Essentially this move was made to simply create more completed sets. There must truly be a ridiculously high number of broken sets. Remember, George himself has a broken set. For those of us with a SP unbroken set AND the two MM versions, I think the value of the set as a whole will not be significantly altered.

Finally, Stego you are a big fan of SP and I can respect that but in my mind, SP has made almost as many missteps with their handling of the series as MM and I don't feel you have been completely fair about that. Please address the following points:

1. The fact that they decided to break the style of the books when obtaining the rights, immediately ruining any chance of consistency in look for the series. Yes, Bill is passionate but perhaps he should have respected the opinions of the hundreds of people who actually buy and own these books instead of imposing his own particular whimsies on all of us.

2. Was it really necessary to make the books smaller, change the slipcase, do away with the gilt, do away with the sewn in bookmark, and also split the novels into 2 volumes as well?

Why not splint into 3 volumes? Why not make them 14x13 inches instead? Shouldn't some consistency have been followed?

There was great controversy at the time of aSoS publishing and much anger. I believe you had a pretty negative reaction yourself. As I recall, Bill didn't deal with the criticism particularly well either.

3. The trend continues with him splitting each novel into 2 volumes. This is likely to be the case going forward from now on. The answer from him is that it is "easier" to hold while reading. I'm glad Bill likes to read 1500 dollar books in his easy chair. I prefer to do that with the 27.95 version instead.

4. You mentioned that Clash of Kings had the wrong title page. Annoying yes. Have you by chance read the Prologue of Subterranean Press' version of Storm of Swords Stego? Do you notice anything weird about it? Why don't you ask Bill about that. See if he remembers anything . . . missing.

Do you think that a chunk of text missing from the actual novel itself is inconsequential? How about a novel that costs a few hundred bucks? Is that acceptable? All we got was an "oopsie" and "boo boo" from the publisher and a shrug. Take it or leave it.

In my mind at least, that mistake essentially ruined Storm of Swords as any type of edition of quality and I would take a title page error one hundred times over rather than have a mistake of that magnitude in the TEXT of the novel itself.

Kind of funny don't you think since Bill's reason for splitting the book into 2 volumes was because he at least planned to enjoy READING the novel . . . and then a mistake was made that would essentially destroy the ability of one to do that.

What is the price of "passion" Stego? Because if you are REALLY passionate and have integrity, you would probably have to go back and reprint the entire lettered and numbered run to correct that mistake. Please make no mistake, it is a huge error. As a book collector, what is more important than the accuracy of the text itself? If that is wrong, everything is wrong. Meisha's mistake on Clash is a boo boo, Stego, Subterranean Press' mistake on Storm of Swords is a catastrophic one. I find it interesting that it has been brushed under the carpet or forgotten by you because I certainly have not. It bothers me to this day and I think Bill will tell you it annoys him to no end as well.

So . . . in what capacity in this series has SP shown us they are superior to Meisha again? At least with Storm of Swords, I was not impressed with:

1. the smaller size of the volumes which is NON-STANDARD size.

2. the fact it was split into two volumes.

3. the slipcase did NOT have the engraving on the side. Excuses were given why this could not be done but in the end, money won out. Apparently, all the great reasons for not including the engraving on the slipcase changed up because we wound up having it for Feast for Crows instead.

4. the lack of the gilt gold edging

5. the absence of the sewn in bookmark

6. no absence of the additional artwork for the lettered edition on the cover.

In point of fact, Subterranean lettered editions didn't have much to distinguish them from the numbered sets. The color of the slipcase was different and . . . ?

Meisha Merlin made mistakes. But they made very beautiful books . . . and as a very passionate collector of books and George Martin A Song of Ice and Fire books myself, I have to tell you the honest truth which is that I did not like Subterranean Press's way of handling a Storm of Swords. They did do a much better job with Feast for Crows.

I think Subterranean Press is a better business than Meisha and in the end I'm glad they are doing the series because they are unlikely to go bankrupt and at least they will finish what they started. At the same time, I liked the Meisha books better . . . they are just BETTER BOOKS in my opinion and as a collectible I simply find them more appealing.

Overall, I think redoing Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings by SP was inevitable and probably the best thing to do so that I can have at least a matching set that looks respectable on the bookshelf. But in that case, I would formally submit that Subterranean Press owes us, the discerning collector, a better product than the limited edition of Storm of Swords which was sold to us all those years ago. If they do Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings with engraved slipcases then wouldn't that make Storm of Swords look even worse without one? So I say we should get a new slipcase with the engraving done as well.

By the way, to keep things consistent, don't you think we should split Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings into two volumes each as well?

If the goal after all is to give a true unbroken set of books that is consistent in look and quality then we shouldn't have double standards or be hypocrites. If you want to do something, you need to do something right. If you don't do it right the first time, then you have to make it right the second time. I thought that was part of the whole "passion" thing but my definition of that may be a unique one . . .

And for those complaining of having to buy another copy of GoT and CoK, remember I have to buy 4 total. Numbered SP of GoT, CoK AND lettered SP of GoT and CoK. Not to mention DwD both numbered and lettered. Easily around 2000 dollars by my estimate.

Ultimately what I would REALLY like is:

Subterranean Press to do Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings with engraved slipcases and each book split into 2 volumes.

Subterranean Press to REPRINT Storm of Swords with that missing chunk of text CORRECTED and with an ENGRAVED slipcase.

Unlike Geddon, I don't mind the Meisha Merlin versions being orphaned because in my personal opinion, those editions are still the superior and better looking versions with the better artwork and as such will continue to command solid values on the secondary market much as isolated UK 1st editions of GoT or British ARCs of GoT still maintain value and rarity even today.

[Sword of the Morning]

Nope. I don't. It was sold out while I was still in the Marine Corps. Not enough cash back then.

I don't see what the difference is, however. I have a numbered set. It's slightly less money. Would you like to trade with me? I'll give you the difference in cash per volume and then you can pay 100 dollars less for the two new ones.

Quite frankly, I'm no longer even sure what a complete lettered set is worth anymore as in over a decade of collecting Martin books I have never seen a set on sale in any venue under any set of circumstances.

I've seen NUMBERED Game of Throne novels sold for over a thousand but a lettered one, never.

A lettered set may essentially be priceless . . .

[Justinian]

Lets hope so, Sword of the morning! Let's hope so!

I am confident I will end up with the CC copies of all the Subterranean Press volumes in addition to the MM volumes. So I'm going to have a full unbroken set regardless, and a lettered set WITH the MM editions as well as the Sub Press ones is undoubtedly going to be the real prize for a serious Martin collector. I just think that there are some real problematic aspects to this whole thing which Stego is glossing over a bit. And I agree with you about the SubTer edition of A Storm of Swords. The lettered edition, judged solely on quality and differentiation from the numbered edition, was clearly a... rip-off isn't the right word because I don't believe there was malice, but it was not worth the price except in so far as it was necessary to maintain an unbroken set. Now, I am a huge fan of Sub Press and own thousands of dollars of their books not even counting the Martin ones. I love them to pieces. But the Storm of Swords lettered editions were by far the lowest quality product I've ever received from them, by a long shot. Everybody makes a mistake now and then, it's just a shame it had to be on this particular book.

I only say all that because I don't think it is fair to pin all this on Meisha Merlin. Some people don't care for the art in AGoT. Fine. But that's an opinion and not an objective fact like the messed up title page in Clash or the bunch of major problems with Swords. And John Howe did Clash's art. John Howe! I think it is inarguable that Clash is the most attractive of the limited sets so far. The lettered edition of Clash, with all edge gilt, illustrated slipcase, etc is just beautiful.

So, yeah, I understand why this is going to happen. But it isn't a favor to the collectors. Not the ones who already had unbroken sets, anyway. It's a way to give a lot of the fans what they want at the expense of a smaller number of other fans. Is it the end of the world that I have to pay another $700 just to maintain an unbroken by re-buying books I already own? No, it's not the end of the world. But neither is it an insignificance or something which is generally considered good form from a publisher. Yes, there are some extenuating circumstances. But those circumstances are just that; extenuating. They don't make it not problematic, they just make it understandable.

[Justinian]

And, yeah, the crappy slipcase on Swords is so obnoxious to me that I would probably have a new slipcase custom made for it if I had any clue how to go about doing so.

But still, love to Sub Press! They're a great company and I love their books, it pains me to be discussing the ASoS mess again but it seems to be topical.

[Geddon]

Also, Geddon, I think you are way off base on projected value. If this TV show takes off, there will be ten thousand fans wanting the Meisha Merlin edition for every 100 who want it now.

It would appear that Kishkeking was one of the people on the call list and he reacted by immediately selling off a number of stockpiled copies of the Meisha Merlin AGoT a week before the announcement, making $1500 on the last one. Apparently he disagrees with your assessment and decided to cash out before the resale value drops off a cliff.

Good luck to all of you who decide to continue with the series. I suspect you're in for a few more nasty suprises before this sorry saga reaches its conclusion.

[SubPress]

Thanks to everyone for their viewpoints expressed here.

One thing I should point out is that, unless I missed something in skimming this thread, everyone is forgetting the UK limited edition(S) (yes, plural) of A FEAST FOR CROWS, which muddies the waters even further, as they preceded the US Limited. If one were to be especially concerned about building a library of signed limiteds, you'd need both editions of that book.

Yes, we are going to make money on the earlier volumes of A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, but that's not the sole reason we do books. Some books that make $20k or more are successes. I have volumes that have lost us $10k I'm equally proud of.

And thanks Stego, ONLY FORWARD was an utter delight to work on. I'm glad someone appreciated it.

Best,

Bill

SubPress

[Justinian]

It would appear that Kishkeking was one of the people on the call list and he reacted by immediately selling off a number of stockpiled copies of the Meisha Merlin AGoT a week before the announcement, making $1500 on the last one.

I wondered about this myself. If he was, indeed, on the call list then doing this was extremely ethically dubious. If we were talking securities instead of books it would be illegal.

[evogeler]

I wondered about this myself. If he was, indeed, on the call list then doing this was extremely ethically dubious. If we were talking securities instead of books it would be illegal.

Count me as another who thinks this is quite sketchy. If he was consulted by either Bill or George or privy to an early announcement that SubPress would be reissuing GoT and CoK, his capitalization on this is downright unethical. If I were one of those who bought one from him at 1800 a pop, I'd be furious.

[SubPress]

I just double checked his first post to be sure, but my discussion with George didn't take place until well after Kishkeking had offered his Meisha Merlin limiteds to members of the board. George's discussion with collectors took place after his and my discussion, so, as far as I can tell, nothing sketchy went on.

Best,

Bill

SubPress