Subterranean to release signed limiteds of Game and Clash!

[Sword of the Morning]

Hmm. Well' date=' on the other hand if you paid over retail price, you were engaged in speculation, surely? With all that entails.

So while I sympathise to some degree, that's a bit different than if you had lost money on the retail price. The key issue, though, is still whether you were led to believe this release would never be permitted, or (to put it another way) whether you could reasonably have foreseen that it might happen. [/quote']

Whoa, hold up there partner. If you paid over retail price, you were engaged in speculation surely? Ummm, no. How about this:

"I love A Song of Ice and Fire and didn't even KNOW about these books until recently and now I really want them. I understand because I actually know what "limited" edition means and from everything that was implied by the author and publisher to me that this is the going rate that I must pay if I want these books. I love George Martin, I love Song of Ice and Fire, so I'm going to save my disposable income for 6 months to get these books even if that means paying 1500 dollars for the first one from the author himself. Oh darn, I find out a few months later that in fact I didn't have to do that because the author and publisher are going to be releasing another version that is going to complete the set anyway."

Tell me, Mormont where exactly is the "speculation" in there? And as someone who I recall has never spent a dime on ANYTHING collectible (please correct me if I'm wrong, my memory isn't what it was), I think it WOULD be hard for you to appreciate exactly what is going on here.

[Sword of the Morning]

Justinian,

After the initial furor and disappointment over A Storm of Swords release, the IMMEDIATE response of which Stego was a big proponent was to ask whether Subterranean would "redo" the first two books to match the third and forthcoming volumes.

OBVIOUSLY that would be the natural thing to do, isn't that just simple logic?

We were firmly rebuffed and I distinctly remember that the tone was "maybe but it is a LOOOOOOONG shot and I'm not even going to think about it until the series is finished."

Of course this was before the following happened:

1. George decided to take 6 years and counting to finish Dance with Dragons making Bill likely think in the dark recesses of his heart if he would live to see the day this series would finally finish let alone finish as a limited edition.

2. A Game of Thrones decided to rocket the hell up into the stratosphere showing that there was a huge demand for it.

3. A Game of Thrones was optioned for an HBO series with almost unprecedented hype and it doesn't take a brain surgeon or rocket scientist to figure out that demand for the books may increase ever so slightly.

4. Oh yeah and Dance is finally coming out.

So when you put all that together, it's simple business one, two , three to redo the first two books.

Now Justinian if you are intent on going back and PROVING that Bill from SP ever said categorically NO, NEVER to a redo of the first two books, then you aren't going to find it because he never ever said it. Of course the impression that was given by him up to this very announcement was that he WASN'T going to do it but I think personally the change is pure business.

I have a REALLY hard time believing that he really gives a shit about the poor, poor little lambs who have broken sets of the series. This move could have been done YEARS ago to help them out but WHY NOW?

Shouldn't we ask that question?

WHY NOW?

Well the answer is self-evident. Before, while George was mired in his writer's block with no new action going on, Bill did the math, discovered 2+2=4, and decided that he would probably lose his shirt redoing Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings especially with the Meisha ones floating around out there. Then, after the HBO development, he did some more math, decided that 4x4=16 and decided now might not be a bad time to cash in and start redoing Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings.

And there's nothing wrong with that, he's a businessman after all. I know he doesn't matter losing 10k over a book "he's really proud of" but ummm, too many books like that and I don't care HOW MANY books Bill is proud of, he's going to go off fishing with Meisha it that keeps up. Bottom line, as a viable business, he needs a lot more 20K in the black books than 10k in the red books. That's how it works. So I don't begrudge him that.

But I think it is absolutely disingenous to suggest this was done with the fans in mind. Good Lord, how long has the "want to reunite sets" threads been up in Objects of Ice and Fire. We weren't good enough to help for the past 6 fucking years but now one month before HBO launches A Game of Thrones and 4 months before A Dance with Dragons gets published, it's time to finally make a concrete push to give us a true uniform, matching set?

I'm no genius (well, ok, maybe I am . . . ;)) but it doesn't take one to understand what is going on.

I don't know about George but I'm pretty sure Bill knew absolutely what the implications of this decision was going to be and the reaction it was going to provoke from those of us with unbroken sets. He did the math, decided 4-2=2 and made the smart business decision.

Too bad. I'll play but I feel sorry as hell for all those newbies that bought from kishkeking.

Dennis

[Padraig]

If we are arguing on a utility basis then the best thing for the greatest number of people would be to send out copies of any of the books to anybody who wants one, and allow them to write in whatever number or letter they wish.

I don't know why this was written in response to me. Maybe by accident? Somebody said GRRM's fans will not benefit from this decision. I merely pointed out that some will (or pointed where somebody else said so).

[Padraig]

Sword,

Now, you may disagree that selling Game of Thrones for going rate Ebay scalper prices are bad.

I'm curious. Most collectors must have bought and sold books on ebay? Is scalping the common term? You say you scalped a book?

Anyhow, people would probably rage if they had just bought a MM edition on ebay to find that GRRM was selling a bunch a few weeks later for the original price. You can't really win here. :) And MM was an exception. You are probably not going to find many examples of something similar since the company went insolvent and GRRM got his books back.

While there has been some issues, a lot of the licenses have worked out very well. The TV show being the classic and timely example. And even where there were issues, i'm led to believe the final product was often very good. Not that i'm pretending that the solvency of the company behind some of the products was good. But people seem to be very happy with the MM books themselves. There were some issues with the comics but the product was excellent when delivered. Even the infamous calendar was very well done! Maybe GRRM focused too much on getting a quality product over a long term solid company. But that doesn't mean he deserves the derision you are heaping on him. If all the products were rubbish, that would be different.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

If he DID think there was going to be an SP version in the future, it was damn dishonest of him not to mention that fact before cashing that 1200 dollar check fron OverHill don't you think?

But he probably didn't think there would be. You have talked plenty about how unlikely such a proposition was.

[Geddon]

Thanks for taking the time to write out all that Sword, I'm glad somebody here understands.

There's a limit to how many times and ways you can explain the same concepts, after a certain point it becomes clear that the person you are talking to cannot be made to understand. I'd advise you to stop wasting your time at this point. All the collectors know the issues involved and can recognise the breach of trust here, anybody who publishes limited editions is also well aware of the concepts we have laboured to illustrate. There are no other stakeholders here.

I'd like to ask a couple of questions of Bill Shafer. Firstly; if the contracts have not changed then you always had the right to publish books 1 and 2. Why did you start publishing your version of the series at book 3?

Secondly can you clarify your position as regards the transfer of letters or numbers in continuing Sub Press series. In a variety of series you are currently publishing you allow the owner of earlier book(s) the opportunity to buy the matching number or letter of later books. Typically you specify a short period where only owners of the last book can order, before then opening sales to a wider audience.

If the partial set of books is sold to a new owner will you allow them the same opportunities and privileges as any other owner? Will they be able to order matching copies of later books, and do so inside the exclusivity period if one applies?

[mormont]

Whoa, hold up there partner. If you paid over retail price, you were engaged in speculation surely? Ummm, no. How about this (snip)

That could be true, also. However it doesn't read like the thinking of someone whose primary concern is the resale value of the object.

And as someone who I recall has never spent a dime on ANYTHING collectible (please correct me if I'm wrong, my memory isn't what it was), I think it WOULD be hard for you to appreciate exactly what is going on here.

I have no idea what 'memory' you might be talking about there. There's honestly no way you could know whether I've spent £1, £1,000 or £100,000 on collectibles, since I've never said anything about it on the board (other than that I am not a collector, so I suppose the last is unlikely). I mention this only because it looks like another example of your tendency to leap to conclusions about people you don't know.

As for the repetition of the argument about 'oh, only a collector could understand this issue', see previous and below.

I'm sure Geddon could have kept his temper a little better but you certainly figured out the right way to push his buttons.

This has nothing to do with you, and the suggestion that I 'figured out' how to 'push his buttons' would be offensive if it wasn't so utterly silly. What interest do I have in pushing Geddon's buttons? Total tosh.

He donates to charity? Great, good for him. That doesn't make what he did with the Meisha Game of Thrones right. Doing 9 good things doesn't make up for the wrong thing you did. It means you did 9 good things and 1 bad thing and that's that.

Frankly, it appears to me he couldn't have done 'right' on the MMs, at least not in everyone's view. If he'd sold them at retail price, many people would have complained he was devaluing their copies. If he sells them at market price, some people conclude he's gouging the fans. Some people would probably even have been in both camps, because some people are cynical enough. I suppose he could have given them away, but it's harsh to say that was the only 'right' thing he could have done.

Doesn't mean they aren't great authors but doesn't mean he likes them either and right now I have to say I have a hard time respecting or liking GRRM. But he does write a great Tyrion chapter.

I can keep the two separate, many people can not.

Fair enough. But 'separate' doesn't necessarily mean 'different'. I can certainly keep the two separate: I don't like and respect GRRM because I like his work. I like and respect him on a personal level.

Which doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that some of what you say is true. He made mistakes with the Ruby Ford figure, the calendar, and other merchandise (you haven't even given an exhaustive list). I think that happened because he failed to recognise his limitations and get good advice. That's his fault, ultimately.

Now, I'm not going to get into a line-by-line rebuttal session with you, which would only derail the thread, but to sum up: do I understand how you feel? Yes. I've felt frustrated, felt let down, felt betrayed, even lost money as a result. At no time have I suggested that people have no right to feel that way over this. My only intervention was a (mild, I thought) suggestion that they should try to keep a sense of proportion about it. This, I would suggest, is precisely the kind of thing that being so wrapped up in 'being a collector' makes it harder to do, though some have managed to do it with maturity and calm. I respect that.

I understand it's not about the scale of the loss, as I've already said. And conversely, I know that not every collector is well off and for some people the amounts involved are not negligible. But some of the posts here come off reflecting badly on the posters, IMO.

ETA - with which, for a variety of reasons, I will be signing off from this thread.

[Stego]

Sorry, I'll catch up with this thread this afternoon. I gave it a break for a few days.

[Geddon]

I'd like to ask a couple of questions of Bill Shafer. Firstly; if the contracts have not changed then you always had the right to publish books 1 and 2. Why did you start publishing your version of the series at book 3?

Secondly can you clarify your position as regards the transfer of letters or numbers in continuing Sub Press series. In a variety of series you are currently publishing you allow the owner of earlier book(s) the opportunity to buy the matching number or letter of later books. Typically you specify a short period where only owners of the last book can order, before then opening sales to a wider audience.

If the partial set of books is sold to a new owner will you allow them the same opportunities and privileges as any other owner? Will they be able to order matching copies of later books, and do so inside the exclusivity period if one applies?

Bill, I imagine most of the people who own (or have an interest in) the limited editions would appreciate answers to these questions if you have the time.

The second one is of particular importance for those who are considering selling their books in light of the recent announcement.

[Justinian]

I don't see how it is possible to give the people who buy the SP copies of GoT and CoK rights to the later books. The rights to DwD are with whoever bought Feast, and the rights to any theoretical post-Dance book would be with whoever bought Dance. Buying Game or Clash would give you rights to pretty much nothing.

[Geddon]

I can see I didn't make myself clear. If an owner of books 3 and book 4 sells them to somebody else will the new owner get the same pre-order opportunity for book 5 (and onwards) as the original owner would have been entitled to?

[Sword of the Morning]

I think everyone has pretty much made their positions clear.

At the end of the day, the circumstances dictate that there is not much more to say really. You either have to play the game according to the rules that are dictated by Bill or George or the publisher or a combination of the three or you can cash out. Some have decided to cash out. The rest of us are going to keep playing although I think we have done all we can to voice our viewpoint and our displeasure.

To answer your question, Geddon, although I obviously can not presume to speak for Bill, in the past when you sell the books you currently own, you actually have the choice of transferring rights . . . OR NOT.

In other words, suppose you sold books 3 and 4. The new owner does NOT get the rights to book 5 because as far as Bill is concerned you still hold first right of refusal due to your purchase of the previous novels in the series.

Now, having said this, it would be assinine for anyone to buy these books on Ebay or on these forums WITHOUT also insisting on full transference of rights. If you don't do this, you can obviously hold the buyer hostage and continue to sell forthcoming books in the series for a premium rate. Therefore, the MAJORITY of sale threads of the SERIES (not individual books) on Ebay, etc, also state that with the sale of the current books there will ALSO be transference of rights to future books.

The transfer is very simple, the owner on record merely sends a communication to Bill (usually via email) and that's it really.

I got both my numbered and lettered versions on the secondary market and both sellers contacted first Meisha and then Subterranean Press to transfer the rights to me. I confirmed and it's been as simple as that.

At least in this instance, I can't imagine why there would be a change in policy there from SP.

So if you sell books 2,3, and 4, all you have to do is email Bill to let him know that you are transferring your rights to the name of your buyer and that should be it.

This issue of rights to future books is very important. I know I made it crystal clear that I would NOT be doing any business unless that was part of the deal and both sellers agreed without any debate.

Hope that answers your question Geddon. Good luck with your sale but again, I urge you to keep the sequence intact instead of spitting them because I think you will get a much higher price.

Take care,

Dennis

[Geddon]

It has been my understanding that this was the policy when transferring "rights" but, as we have seen, unless it is actually a stated policy then it is a mistake to depend upon it. Bill Shafer is the only person in a position to make a definitive statement as regards this issue.

The 2,3,4 set I'm currently selling was not purchased from Sub Press, the decision on whether or not to allow transfer of any rights lies with the retailer I purchased the books from. In the past they have been very accomodating so I don't forsee problems.

However I also have a set of the asoiaf books bought directly from Sub Press, as well as several other incomplete, ongoing series bought from them. I just want to know where any potential purchaser stands should I decide to sell on any of the books before those series are finished, so as to avoid making false claims when I advertise them.

[vmstat]

Sword of the Morning,

Thank you for making the points so clear.

I found the fact SP was releasing new versions of the books just yesterday, and hadn't visited the forum since... well, since ever (I had an account in the previous forum, but had to sign in again today).

I have a full numbered set, apart from others goodies (ARCs and such).

I started collecting GRRM when MM was still around (bought both book 1&2 from them), and the _main_ reason I decided then to shell out an amazing amount of money (I was 22 or so then) was because it was _promised_ by GRRM that it was to be the only deluxe edition that was to be done of their books.

- Well, if it's the only one, let's go for it -, I though

Time passed, and the amount of problems we collectors had to endure was stunning. For me it's actually even worse, since I don't live in USA (and write a poor english), so keeping in touch with news and changes of publishers has been a hell. I lost money with tha Dabel Brothers (never got my calendar), got a (numbered) GRRM RRestrospective sent to me with a bent in the cover (and hey, you can't ask for a new one since they are limited), ... but I have managed, as a few others, to keep up to date and collect our valuable full sets.

But I was VERY happy about it. I was extremely happy, since so many collectors has been lost in the tracks, since much fewer full sets were to be achieved, thus increasing the value of mine.

And now I find I'll have to save some hundreds of dollars to cover other people's mistakes (GRRM first of all, of course). And all my effords have been in vain, since SP is going to re-issue the firsts books to make it easier to collect a full set. Funny. Wasn't the whole thing "interesting" because it was limited and, therefore, difficult to achieve?

If you want to satisfy readers, don't make it limited. If you make a limited edition, it _must_ be limited. It shouldn't grow.

But the most irritating thing, on top of everything else, is that the decision seems to have been taken consulting "a few" collectors.

How MANY full set collectors are out there? One million??? If I'm not wrong, our number must be well below 300. We are a _very_ reduced list of people, and SP HAS OUR EMAILS.

Couldn't they ask ALL of us about our opinion? Is it that difficult to ask the people who have been loyal to the edition and have followed and suffered all its problems what our view was on _our_ collections?

We are the ones paying for it. We should have something to say about changes on it, shouldn't we?

And no, sorry, no one can speak on my behalf on this issue. Not this forum, not BwB, not even GRRM.

We made a deal, he's broken it, and we are going to pay for it. Full stop.

[Sword of the Morning]

Hello and welcome to the board although I am sorry it had to be with a post dealing with these unfortunate circumstances.

I obviously sympathize with your feelings of frustration. Unfortunately, all of us who own unbroken sets are pretty much stuck with the situation as it stands.

The one thing I am interested in is that as one of the very first adopters you actually remember George Martin promising us that there would not be other versions of the limited edition books. There has been some debate about this mainly because it has been so long ago. Both Martin's inability to write more than 1 new novel every 5 years and also the delay with Meisha putting together their limited edition books has made the details very foggy for most of us.

Certainly, there has been a strong implication that new editions would not be made but we couldn't remember if it was explicitly stated. Thanks for providing at least one voice from the very beginning that shows there has been a breach of trust in this case between Martin and the buyers of these books. We've already gone over in much detail the breach of trust between SP and holders of unbroken sets so there's not much use repeating all of that.

I find it instructive that with the exception of Stego, there hasn't been ONE owner of an unbroken numbered or lettered set who has expressed support for this decision.

Again, I hate hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty and the fact that it was trumpeted that the opinions of so-called "collectors" had been consulted when it has become more and more self-evident that the most relevant opinions were purposefully NOT solicited and even ignored.

If you're going to pull this move to cash in on A Song of Ice and Fire's increased exposure and popularity while "doing a favor" for the new fans who lost out on a complete set, fine. It sucks for the rest of us but okay, I can see the rationale. But don't try to cover it up as some sort of great decision that George only arrived at after carefully deliberating and thinking about all the issues and after consulting with multiple disparate points of view on this topic. Frankly, that is an insult to our intelligence.

I'm so glad though that apparently Martin and maybe Bill thinks that the Brotherhood without Banners in general and Stego in particular represent the point of view not only of all George Martin fans but also George Martin book collectors as well. That's simply outstanding. I'm glad there is all this evidence to support that. :rolleyes:

Dennis

[dajamieson]

I'm not sure bringing the BwB into this is a good idea. A couple of people who might be members (as much as the BwB has a membership as such') may have been consulted - I've no clue who has and hasn't. But that would have been in the context of those people as private individuals and collectors, not as representatives of the BwB in any way. The BwB as an organization has, as far as I'm aware, had no official input into this.

[vmstat]

The one thing I am interested in is that as one of the very first adopters you actually remember George Martin promising us that there would not be other versions of the limited edition books. There has been some debate about this mainly because it has been so long ago. Both Martin's inability to write more than 1 new novel every 5 years and also the delay with Meisha putting together their limited edition books has made the details very foggy for most of us.

I remember it pretty well. It was clearly stated, it wasn't a hint or a possibility. It was stated as a fact. I remember it so well 'cause it's what made me go for the collection. I don't remember _where_ in GRRM site was this written, possibly in one of the news updates (something in the line "Few numbered AGOT remain from MM"), but that's too much to ask from my memory.

If you're going to pull this move to cash in on A Song of Ice and Fire's increased exposure and popularity while "doing a favor" for the new fans who lost out on a complete set, fine. It sucks for the rest of us but okay, I can see the rationale. But don't try to cover it up as some sort of great decision that George only arrived at after carefully deliberating and thinking about all the issues and after consulting with multiple disparate points of view on this topic. Frankly, that is an insult to our intelligence.

+1. Exactly what I think.

[Ran]

What daj said. The BwB is an organization, and said organization was not part of the decision. Individuals who are part of it may have been consulted, but that's them acting in their individual capacity.

At this point, it seems to me that we're rehashing quite a lot. I highly recommend to those who are aggrieved to take the matter up with Subterranean directly, as it seems that'd be a lot more to the point.