World of Warcraft

[Solmyr]

The problem there is that to succeed at endgame content -- i.e.' date=' raiding -- you have to be an elitist. Your guild literally cannot down any given current content tier unless they are at least trying to excel. The only way to "fix" this is to dumb the content down -- which makes the content trivial and pointless for good players -- unless you can find some way to teach the unwashed masses how to be good, and make them want to be good. It is not clear to fme that this situation can be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties. I don't know if it is, literally, possible to write content that satisfies both audiences.

Heroics are another example -- you may remember that when they came out they were a huge cock block for people unless they ran as a guild. People have mostly figured them out now and it is rare for me to not complete a heroic, but there are still really bad players in them and they can still fuck it up. I haven't had many problems, fortunately, but I know I've seen people complain that they have literally never completed heroic Blackrock because there is always someone in their group that can't manage their job with Corla's beams even if it's explained or even if they say they know how it works.

As for asking the "5k DPS" players whether they want to be the best or just have fun, the genre makes that a problem, particularly in current content. I've come around on the difficulty level of heroics -- growing pains are always a problem with new content, I guess -- but at the end of the day, you still have to rely on your group to do their jobs. Unlike in Wrath, where a good tank or healer could literally carry all three bad DPS, DPS matters now, both for their damage and for their interrupts/CCs. The design of the game forces you to rely on other people. But it provides neither the incentive nor the information necessary to make people reliable. You just have to hope they've done their homework.

I really don't think some of you guys understand what it is like to be a new player without skilled friends to give guidance. I've told this story before, but it bears repeating. When I first hit 80 on my rogue, I had leveled from 20-80 as Subtlety. Things died, so I assumed I was fine. I had zero concept of what my damage output was like and it didn't even occur to me to wonder. You absolutely WILL NOT go seek out info on how to be better unless someone prods you into it, because that concept simply will not exist for you. You won't know that that information exists, you won't even know that you want it. I'm struggling to figure out a way to express this clearly and I just don't know how to make it more explicit. It isn't just that you don't know you're bad. You don't even know that being bad is a thing that can happen. You have never been in a position where being bad matters.

EDIT: There's also kind of a divide where being "bad" means different things to different groups. If you're a serious player and you're doing 8k DPS on a boss fight, to you, you're playing like shit. You're still doing better than like 80% of the population. Your "bad day" is so far above the performance of the average player's good day as to defy description.

[/quote']

Since you insist we dig deeper into the matter, I shall oblige tho I am staring into the abyss of arguments I have, which explain why the game is like it is and writing seems a very inefficient way of putting them down ... but we'll work with what we've got ;).

Communication. That's what Blizzard have been culling out of the game for the past 6 years. I always say that the loss of early vanilla World PvP feels like the greatest loss, but on some deeper level I miss communication even more.

Each addon, each enhanced tooltip, the new guild system, the Trade chat and the death of General chat, the death of old worlds, the elimination of elite (most) quest chains throughout leveling zones ... and the Dungeon Finer. Oh, how I despise thee. It's literally the worst thing that happened to WoW in terms of interaction and communication between players. People love it, Blizzard praise it as one of their greatest successes - they say the same about Battlegrounds.

The Dungeon Finder is a tool which proactively supports and encourages retardation, suppresses communication and allows players with no understanding of the game to slide by content, deceiving them that they have learnt it, while in fact all they have done is participate in an interactive movie experience.

Excuse my reminiscing, but I remember the days when grouping with people had consequences. When grouping with people required social skills. When grouping with people ... mattered. I've always played WoW because it provides the ability to interact with real people, both in co-op mode and as foes on the battlefield. It comes as no surprise that I liked doing dungeons more, back before the Dungeon Finder or even the earliest version of the LFG system were introduced.

Those among you, who actually player actively in TBC and especially vanilla, know how groups were made. The more proactive players actually took the initiative and apart from spamming trade and general chat with 'LF2M DM west, healer and dps', took time and approached random players by using the /who function of the game. Especially on pre-max levels, this was one of the only ways to form a group for any dungeon. You simply start asking people who meet the level/class criteria. Half may not even respond. Most of these who do will be busy or otherwise reject your proposal. But at some point you will find kindred souls and form a 5-man team. And the greatest advantage this group had over any of today's, Dungeon-finder-zombie-cliques was their ability to communicate. Sure, you will face difficulties along the way. On my first Sunken Temple run the group I assembled had 0 players who had ever been in this dungeon. All we knew was it was somewhere in Swamp of Sorrows. No summoning stones, everyone makes an effort, we got there, I asked a guildie to give me directions in the underground maze so we can find the entrance. Once inside, we spent over 2 hours clearing the entire place except Eranicus, on whom we wiped thrice and finally decided to give up.

I am using this particular example, because I happened to fraps the Eranicus fights (one of the first boss-dragons, be it a shade, I was meeting in the game - seemed epic) and years later I watched the footage. I laughed at what noobs we've been and how many mistakes we've made. At the same time I found tears in my eyes too, for I had rarely felt so strong a sense of an accomplishment as I did in those days. People entered dungeons, wiped for hours and often did not complete them, but at the end they felt very happy and satisfied, because of the group spirit. Because they were learning content together and exploring a challenging new universe.

Most of today's dungeon finder groups contain at least one member, who is devoid of any social and communicational skills. If he's doing his job well, you can get through and instance and never even remember you had this person in your group. Unfortunately, most of the socially inept individuals are also underperforming to some extend. Back in the day, they rarely ended up invited to a dungeon group, because the group leader would see them for what they are during the selection process. It was better this way, for when exploring new and challenging content, formulating and communicating strategies is key for success.

Group leadership is another relic of the past. When the Dungeon Finder first came out a random person would be given the "group leader" status. It was not right for the game to enforce leadership upon an individual based on an RNG, but at least it tried to preserve the group design that had worked for 5 years. Then, mere months later, Blizzard decided to rename the group leader to 'dungeon guide'. In practice nothing changed, but the semantics of the title. Yet the result was an abomination. Once leadership was stripped away all group members felt as equals. That works just fine when it's all sun and meadows, but once storm clouds darken the horizon, wipes start occurring and tension bursts out in arguments, the lack of clearly defined leadership destroys most Dungeon Finder groups.

Lets review the following scenario. We live in a perfect world where the designer who came up with the Dungeon Finder idea was accidentally strangled by his mother in the cradle. I want to go to BRC heroic and start assembling a group. It's Wednesday noon, just after maintenance, most people are at work and there are but a few available, so it takes me a while, but I finally manage to find a tank and healer (who happen to be boyfriend and girlfriend from the same guild) and we set off. Before we begin the tank kindly informs me that he can only spare 1 hour for the run, because he and his sweetheart need to run to catch a train. I oblige, as I have done BRC hc many times in the past and know that the average run takes less than 45mins and I'm confident in the people I've hand-picked.

Fast-forward 52mins ahead, due to <insert random reasons here, could be wipes, afk, whatever> the group is standing on the junction between Beauty and last boss. The tank impatiently pulls the last pack before last boss, but you notice one of the dpsers is looking hungrily in Beauty's direction and not dpsing. Once the pack is dead he insists you kill Beauty because he needs <insert random item> very badly. The tank is tapping his foot and about to pull the last boss, as he has to go in but a few minutes. You're the leader, you call the shots (we presume you have authority - will explain about this in next paragraph), you say the group skips Beauty and you complete the dungeon on time. The dps is pissed, but once the dungeon is over you take 3 mins of your time and explain why you needed to hurry and that the tank had stated beforehand he needs to leave at that point. He's understanding and all is well.

Had the same scenario occurred with a Dungeon Finder group, the dps would've made a fuss in chat. The tank has no time to argue, he's in a hurry and wants to pull so he'll move towards last boss. The dps proposes a vote to kick for the tank - it passes 3:2, since in the eyes of the group the tank is being a dick. The healer leaves immediately after. 3 dps stand alone, either in for a long wait to finish the dungeon or to fall apart even further. If even one of them decides to go afk/alt+tab at this point, a role check can't pass and that's the end of this BRC run.

Preemptively I am correcting a possible flaw with this scenario - it's true the tank could've informed the group that he needs to leave in 1h upon joining, but in that case, assume it's an emergency and he suddenly finds himself in a hurry.

Lastly, I'll tackle authority, which will hopefully wrap up this wall of text. In the above example we presumed that the leader has some authority over the group, beyond the ability to simply kick whoever looks at him cross-eyed. This used to be true, once upon a time, when you could only group with people from your server. If you don't act in a socially and morally acceptable way, people remember you and exclude you from future parties. There are no 'second chances'. Myself, I rarely use the ignore option, I like to believe anything and anyone can be reasoned out and with. Others can be more open-handed. That's why people who act like total jerks in Dungeon Finder groups behave at least to some extend in pug raids. If they are smart they realize their actions have consequences. Dungeon Finder propagandizes the opposite.

So *releases the remainder of the deep breath he took earlier* this is my argument as to why people underperform in heroics, why groups fall apart and newbies are scowled and yelled at instead of being kindly guided and nurtured in becoming pro players. I learned the game by communicating and heeding the advice of more skilled and competent players. Today, the skilled and competent players hang out in forums and reminisce about their past victories and conquests, while the newbies struggle in the gutter.

ETA: I just realized I spent 1 hour writing this and the old topic ended up 6-7 replies ahead and locked. Back to catching up on reading :read: .

[Kalbear]

Had the same scenario occurred with a Dungeon Finder group, the dps would've made a fuss in chat. The tank has no time to argue, he's in a hurry, he's pulling so he'll move towards last boss. The dps proposes a vote to kick for the tank - it passes 3:2, since in the eyes of the group the tank is being a dick.

Yeah, that never happens. Sorry, but because of queue times DPS won't kick a tank for being a dick and then wait 30 min to get another tank. The tank didn't leave voluntarily so they won't be in the front of the queue for the next available tank.

I've informed groups that I only have a limited amount of time to do a run and that we won't be doing optional bosses, and the DPS complain sometimes but I've never been threatened with kicking. That parable just doesn't actually happen. Now, that might be a bad thing - that because tanks have so much power they dictate the way things are run - but it also acts as a defacto leadership role.

I mock a hell of a lot more people and get them to do better in heroics than I used to. The difference between then and now is that before people were forced to be social; now it's a choice. It's up to you to engage with your group.

[Solmyr]

The difference between then and now is that before people were forced to be social; now it's a choice. It's up to you to engage with your group.

Excuse my boldness, but I disagree. One should be allowed to choose how social he wants to be, but anything below a certain amount could lead to miscommunication. Under the Dungeon Finder regime it's easier to find a new group than try solving a difficult encounter with your existing group. Because quitting is not punished in anyway way, it encourages people to act like dicks, especially tanks and healers, who have the power of the queue.

It's a freakin' MMO. If you have a chronic apathy towards people in general and do not wish to interact with them, perhaps you'll be happier playing another genre.

[Kalbear]

As opposed to before, where people acted like dicks and weren't particularly punished for it?

I guess I don't understand your complaint, Solmyr. In Vanilla and BC people were way more dickish to each other. Now they don't really interact - but that's still more enjoyable than the dickery that you'd see before.

NOw instead of having the leader kick you, you have to vote on kicking.

Now instead of having to inspect people's armories, you have an ilvl check that automatically checks for whether or not they're at least somewhat valuable.

Now instead of having to work out CC orders and spend 3 hours in a dungeon on a frustrating system that ends up wiping you, you can leave and queue up and hopefully get a better group.

Now instead of having your gear ninjaed, you can roll on it automatically.

It's a freakin' MMO. If you have a chronic apathy towards people in general and do not wish to interact with them, perhaps you'll be happier playing another genre.

Yeah, well, the problem is that the people that make you want to have apathy in an MMO are the people that want to interact most. For some reason MMOs attract assholes. Well, all games - the greater internet fuckwad theory, I suppose, in action. Point being that it's still the biggest problem for WoW and one they're trying to fight, and it's a big reason why it's so popular.

[TerraPrime]

Yeah, that never happens. Sorry, but because of queue times DPS won't kick a tank for being a dick and then wait 30 min to get another tank. The tank didn't leave voluntarily so they won't be in the front of the queue for the next available tank.

Hate to be contrarian, but as healer and dps, I've voted to kick tanks before. Only happened 3 times, of course. Two of these were basically DPS peeps queueing as tanks, imo, because they have practically no tank gear and had zero survivability. The other one was a dick.

Also, as a tank, I was voted out once, because I tried to remove a dps for too much afk (2 over 5 min afk and multiple shorter ones, all before we even got to Corla). My vote failed, and they in turn voted to kick me. I think they must have been guildies. Didn't check at the time.

At the same time, I've removed myself plenty of times from bad groups who won't listen to directions and who're just unreasonable. I did this both as tank, healer, and dps. It's not worth my aggravation to be stuck with bad groups. Sometimes I do regret the 30 min wait as dps, but I'd rather spam chat for Enchant work or do dailies for gold than to be in a bad group. I also feel that I don't want to enable bad players by sticking around and carrying them, when they showed no interest in learning or improving. I'm very patient with groups that are friendly and willing to work together. I've spent 2.5 hours in the Blockade, explaining all the fights, including talking the group through fights where we wiped repeatedly, because the group was actually learning and improving.

Lately, I've also begun to thank people more specifically at the end of the dungeon, instead of just saying "ty all." I now say something like "Thanks all for running your toons well and for the good cc/dps/heal/tank."

[Inigima]

Solmyr, your reply doesn't really address much in my post that you quoted, but I'll bite.

I'm with Kalbear. The Dungeon Finder has its problems, but it's by far a net positive.

I've had some great, fun, friendly groups, and I've had some silent ones. There wasn't really very much talking pre-dungeon finder either. Yes, you had to form your own groups, but there was no selection for social skills as you imply. And this way you can actually get groups for dungeons below the level cap. No one fucking did Dire Maul when I was leveling through Wrath.

I don't talk all that much in groups these days unless the group seems talkative, although I like it when they are. I will give CC assignments if necessary, if someone is doing something bad I will tell them about it -- not nastily, but like Terra's example with the wrong warlock pet earlier, I'll tell them about it. If they're way off I'll refer them to Elitist Jerks to get help with specs and rotations.

Sometimes talking to people turns out to be a bad choice because they're dicks. I have a baby hunter I'm leveling, and I duo queued with a friend and got Maraudon (orange side). There are slimes in there that pulse AOE damage. They're not meant to be tanked, ranged is supposed to kite and kill them. After we got one pull down, I said in /p, "you know you're not supposed to tank those right?" figuring I'd try and help out the healer for the next pack. I got back a testy "did it cause a problem? jesus" I said, "nah, just trying to make life easier for next time." He bitched up a storm for the next several minutes while the rest of my group, pubbies included, told him to "get the sand out of your vag." Lots of WoW players have the social skills on tapioca. I don't want to socialize with those people.

I can't believe your example of the "golden age" of WoW is "we wasted two hours of lives wandering lost and confused and still failed."

If someone is being a dick, I will votekick them and have the Dungeon Finder find me a new person. If that person is the tank, I'll do it anyway, because I will be at the front of the queue and it will not take very long.

As far as being "guided and nurtured" by better players... that shit didn't happen any more then than it does now. No one pre-Dungeon Finder had time for your shit either. If you were lucky you got someone like me who gave you a couple basic pointers or told you where to go to get more information. Most of the time you got removed from the group.

I won't claim the Dungeon Finder is perfect. But fuck me, it is such a huge improvement to the old system it's mind-boggling.

EDIT: Yeah, if someone really goes above and beyond I'll mention it. "Great heals" after someone facepulls 3 packs and we don't wipe, or whatever, or "thanks everyone, great group" if everyone was good. Everyone likes recognition for a job well done.

I'm almost positive that groups who kick their tank are still given priority for a new one.

[Migey]

I quit WoW recently, but when using dungeon finder, the average was about one complete fucking tard, one really good person, and two who could swing either way - generally one of these two would be friends with soemone else in the group. Almost always, one person in the group would be so silent you would never notice them.

Occasionally, i ran with some really good people. More often then not, there was one or two dicks. 9 out of 10 heroics were unenjoyable, and in the end, i became sick of heroics, and of the people in them. Im only half-ashamed to admit i started queueing and quitting and requeueing until i got a dungeon in progress (easy as i was a tank) in the hopes i wouldn't have to spend much time in the dungeon.

I've started playing Rift, and for the comparison, i've done 3 instances in it. None of them had any dicks. One had some guy who was a bit obnoxious and kept pulling ahead of the tank, but after me and the tank decided to stop saving him, and just stand back, let him die, and then run in and take the group, he learnt. So far, i have not had a single incident of dickery in my groups. Also, funnily enough, one of the dungeons (at level 25, which is about halfway) was at least twice as hard to heal as any heroic in cata ever was, with the possible exception of bosses with fire mechanics, seeing as most groups would be complete with someone who hadn't yet learnt fire is still hot, and death may cause injury.

I personally would say that dungeon finder is a bad thing, but not as bad as some people think. I think the biggest problem is the game, and the type of people it attracts.

While inconviniences and prerequisites of hard work in a game can be annoying, i do think they manage to deflect a significant portion of assholes to other games. I certainly never ran into so many idiots when i had to search for groups myself, and either run all the way to the instance myself, or help the warlock summon.

On a side note, i talk alot - in WoW, i talk incessantly. Which means i have seen a very wide range of reactions. For some reason, there seem to be so many antisocial morons who just cant take someone who likes to chat while doing his instance. On the other hand, i have run into people who respond in kind, and we strike up some great conversations (usually only causing one or two wipes). In that sense, dungeon finder has one good thing - vote kick. Before dungeon finder, while i never ran into as many tards, i did run into a fair few imperious dickwads who happened to be leader who decided an MMO player who liked to talk was retarded. While using dungeon finder, unless i run into guild groups, there usually is only 1 or 2 people who are willing to kick me for talking, so i actually dont get kicked as much.

To be fair, i have done my fair share of dickery. And i am confident in saying most of it was after the inclusion of dungeon finder.

[TerraPrime]

I don't play WoW to socialize.

I play WoW to kill pixels.

I socialize with my guildies on our guildvent. And even then, it's rare. Not that much in common, tbh, other than a couple of the older peeps in the guild, most of them are HS or college kids and most of them have the political acumen of a snail. They sure can pour out dps though.

[Shryke]

Talking about "Lack of Leadership" in LFG is ridiculous. The truth is, most of the time you don't need it. But if someone steps up into the role and starts marking or suggesting shit, 90% of the time everyone else will go along with it unless they are suggesting stupid shit.

And I've kicked my share of tanks. Some are just dicks and it's worth it. Plus, the wait usually isn't that long (a few minutes).

[Kalbear]

Sorry, I'll be clearer. No one is going to kick a tank for skipping an optional boss like beauty.

[Forderz!]

Maybe you just had a shit server ini, but I remember vanilla WoW as a very social experience. Randoms you pulled into scholomance would complement pulling technique, apologize for mistakes, and laugh at silly wipes. So far, all through wrath and cata, I have had ONE enriching ANYTHING with a pug, and that was with a 3/5 guild run that I got placed in, where I(hunter) disagreed with the healer's stance that only tanks pull.

[Solmyr]

I think you've forgotten how it all works. You can't even do any of that without first getting the quest from LBRS. You go in there and right as you get into the big open multi-leveled area, there's a guy (disguised dragon technically, Vael specifically as I remember) who gives you the quest to put together the seal of ascension.

No, I am certain I have not forgotten how it works, having made one of the first keys on my server after release. It is possible they have changed it since (not during vanilla for sure, I made 2 other keys throughout it). The gems and the seal all drop, irregardless of whether no one, someone or everyone in the party/raid has ever seen the questgiver npc. Once any of the four is acquired (not 100% sure if the seal alone works, it was pretty rare and I ended up getting it 3rd out of the 4) you can go to the npc and get the quest. Also the npc itself is far from an obvious questgiver or at an obvious location.

P.S. Works the same way Thunderfury quest chain still works. You get the bindings, then you get a talk option with Demetrian in silithus.

Another example that comes to mind is the chained essence of eranicus from sunken temple (pre-cata) - you could bring it to the cave at the southwestern corner of Swamp of Sorrows, talk to an NPC (only if you had it) and get a quest to go to winterspring.

Sorry for pulling skeletons out of the old thread, was raiding and only now managed to catch up.

[Galactus]

I have noticed in my short WoW time that yeah, there's a higher incidence of dickwads in WoW than in eg. COH. Warhammer had it's share of dicks, obviously, but they tended to be confined to the forums and less so in-game.

But honestly, the difference is... Stark, with COH. Admittedly the latter is a far easier game, but the general atmosphere is much less antisocial. (Generally people who lead a TF tend to take the time to explain it to those who haven't done it before for instance)

[Shryke]

No, I am certain I have not forgotten how it works, having made one of the first keys on my server after release. It is possible they have changed it since (not during vanilla for sure, I made 2 other keys throughout it). The gems and the seal all drop, irregardless of whether no one, someone or everyone in the party/raid has ever seen the questgiver npc. Once any of the four is acquired (not 100% sure if the seal alone works, it was pretty rare and I ended up getting it 3rd out of the 4) you can go to the npc and get the quest. Also the npc itself is far from an obvious questgiver or at an obvious location.

P.S. Works the same way Thunderfury quest chain still works. You get the bindings, then you get a talk option with Demetrian in silithus.

Another example that comes to mind is the chained essence of eranicus from sunken temple (pre-cata) - you could bring it to the cave at the southwestern corner of Swamp of Sorrows, talk to an NPC (only if you had it) and get a quest to go to winterspring.

Sorry for pulling skeletons out of the old thread, was raiding and only now managed to catch up.

The keys dropped without the quest yes. There was still a quest to put it together. Basically a "Hey, do this shit to get past that door at the front!".

[Shryke]

I have noticed in my short WoW time that yeah, there's a higher incidence of dickwads in WoW than in eg. COH. Warhammer had it's share of dicks, obviously, but they tended to be confined to the forums and less so in-game.

But honestly, the difference is... Stark, with COH. Admittedly the latter is a far easier game, but the general atmosphere is much less antisocial. (Generally people who lead a TF tend to take the time to explain it to those who haven't done it before for instance)

More people, less reason to talk to them in WoW. The non-dicks are just passing you by without saying a word.

[Wras]

So I reactivated my BE Rogue today (80, no Cata). Can I still get my other Thunderfury Binding?

[Solmyr]

So I reactivated my BE Rogue today (80, no Cata). Can I still get my other Thunderfury Binding?

Yes. gl, mine hasn't dropped in 2 months >.<

[Solmyr]

The keys dropped without the quest yes. There was still a quest to put it together. Basically a "Hey, do this shit to get past that door at the front!".

*rolleyes*

Let me try a different approach. My brain works under the following assumptions: (i) You started playing WoW no later than 1 year after release. (ii) You found out there is an "UBRS", that it can be accessed with a special key, that this key is part of a quest chain in LBRS and how to start and complete this chain without any external help, tips or guidance. (iii) You believe that the majority of WoW players in early vanilla (up to 1 year after the release of the game) would be able to reach the same level of awareness, operating under assumptions i and ii.

If the answers to i, ii and iii are all "yes", you may (and should) henceforward disregard all my comments in this thread, as we are clearly perceiving the game far too differently to lead a coherent discussion or argument about any of its aspects.

[Shryke]

I have no idea wtf you are talking about. You mentioned no one could know how to open UBRS. Yet people were doing it, without being told by Blizzard or anything. You wander into LBRS and a guy there tells you all about it and even, as I remember, gives you a quest to go complete the key.

[jurble]

I never recalled anyone in Vanilla that didn't know how to get into UBRS...

Walk into BRS. Do LBRS, see quest guy standing on ledge. Accept quest. Farm LBRS for key. Get key. Do UBRS, profit.

Though, honestly, I never bothered to do LBRS, since I never felt like getting my Ony key, someone else always had an UBRS key, or we had a rogue. UBRS was the shit back in the day. I miss my Eye of Rend...

on my warrior.