Catelyn

[Nine of Spades]

Yes, she came to love him dearly... later. When Lord Tywin makes her comment about her being Tywin states, "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter, and Robb Stark is his father's son." (aSoS, Chapter 19).

What does that mean? Or, what is that meant to suggest? Sybella Spicer married above her strata... did Jeyne whish to do so as well? Probably, but what was she willing to do to make it happen? And why exactly is she 'tending' to Robb's wounds anyway? Shouldn't that be the maester's job?

I doubt a smaller house like Westerling had a Maester, and I dont think Robb was dragging one around with him on his campaign.

[Daena the Defiant]

Fair enough. Though it isn't strictly textual evidence, since it supplementary material. ;)

I still think that its a bit nebulous though. For example if Ned said, "lets have a family dinner", and Catelyn said, "Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya, come along" she wouldn't have had to say anything actually cruel to make Jon feel pretty low. And it would fit in with GRRMs comment about drawing a strong line between trueborn and bastard.

But, you'll note that the one time GRRM cites as an example of her firmly drawing the line as when the royal family came to visit (it should be noted, the whole royal family and for no particular reason) Jon didn't get to sit at the high table with the royals (because, for among other things, Queen Cersei would take that as a grave insult), but one of the reasons why Jon was so grumpy is because that's where he usually gets to sit.

[Daena the Defiant]

I doubt a smaller house like Westerling had a Maester, and I dont think Robb was dragging one around with him on his campaign.

Westerling is "poor but proud." A maester is de rigeur for any house with a shred of pride, it would seem. Lots of smaller houses have one.

But, setting that idea aside, Lady Sybella is the one with the half-ass herbal medicinal knowledge: wouldn't it be more likely than she would be the one popping in to check on him and dose him with whatever?

[Nine of Spades]

But, you'll note that the one time GRRM cites as an example of her firmly drawing the line as when the royal family came to visit (it should be noted, the whole royal family and for no particular reason) Jon didn't get to sit at the high table with the royals (because, for among other things, Queen Cersei would take that as a grave insult), but one of the reasons why Jon was so grumpy is because that's where he usually gets to sit.

and the third sentence uttered in my example could be from Ned, saying "Jon come along".

The point of Catelyn excluding him in that isn't necessarily to keep him from the table, but to make it clear he isn't like the others and isn't wanted, at least by her.

[Nine of Spades]

Westerling is "poor but proud." A maester is de rigeur for any house with a shred of pride, it would seem. Lots of smaller houses have one.

But, setting that idea aside, Lady Sybella is the one with the half-ass herbal medicinal knowledge: wouldn't it be more likely than she would be the one popping in to check on him and dose him with whatever?

She could have told her daughter to do it, hoping teenagers would be teenagers and her daughter would snag a king. Jeyne wouldnt necessarily have to be in on that plan either. Its clear from Jaime's chapter that Sybella is far more of a station jumper then her daughter.

[lynxx]

As the daughter of a great House, Catelyn was thoroughly schooled in controlling her emotions and doing the proper thing, no matter how much stress she was experiencing. Jon's presence was a thorn in her side. She withheld her affection. She was cold and never praised or encouraged him. He was treated with less concern than the servants were. She never tucked him in, never sang to him, and never gave him cookies.

Not only did she treat Jon like dirt, she didn't even behave very well toward her true first born Robb, undermining him in front of his generals.

[Valmy]

I am sure somebody has probably stated this before but I am pretty sure Robb felt he had to marry Jeyne because of the way Cat treated Jon.

All of the children, except maybe Sansa, really loved Jon and without Cat's influence would definitely have thought of him as their brother. Jon basically got treated like shit because of Cat. Robb saw this for his whole life and would not want to be responsible for a child being treated that way.

So, Cat played a huge role in Robb getting killed, but even as her life nears its end she still thinks that men just won't listen to her even though she is right; for example, regarding Robb's legitimization of Jon.

Karma can really smack you a lot harder than it should.

Yeah in a series where children are butchered, entire communities slaughtered for no reason, where rape and betrayal are common cleary the most obvious case of treating somebody like dirt is Catelyn not entirely embracing Jon Snow.

[ghost89]

This is a risible post.

Catelyn never mistreated Jon except that one time, nor can she be responsible for how Westerosi noble society regards bastardy in general (1). Can you provide any textual citations to support your daring new thesis?

Indeed, Catelyn tolerated a lot of social stigma for the way her husband mistreated her, and even then she allowed the ignominy of allowing her husband's bastard to be raised in her own household.

1) for example, allowing Elaria Sand to sit at the same table as the noblewomen at Joffrey's wedding would be a grave insult to them and their houses.

edit: spelling, syntax

I have to disagree with your comment that she never mistreated Jon. GRRM states that she is cold to him and not openly hateful but that doesn't mean that she was never mean to him before we take up in the novels. to say that is to assume alot of what is never described.

Next of all she lived in Winterfell where Eddard Stark was lord. She probably didn't allow anything considering Ned would never send his own (or if L+R=J is true) or his sisters kid out in the cold. she would have loved to send him away but ned would never agree and probably insisted on him sitting with the family. Catelyn really does nothing wrong in terms of her behavior (besides a little projection on Jon for her own troubles). But I have a feeling that she had little decision with the raising and caring for Jon.

but I digress to the question asked and state that I can't agree with your theory. It just seems unintelligent to suggest if catelyn treated Jon with hugs and kisses after hiking trips with father that Rob would have left her with a bastard in the belly and been completely fine with it. What could possibly make you think Rob has any ability to do this. If anything her ill treatment of Jon should have encouraged him not to break a royal promise as his father supposedly did.

[Whitering]

Heh, I don't disagree with many of the comments, it's a nebulous thought. I wouldn't say, execute Cat for "causing" the Red Wedding.

I also don't dislike Cat the character, but I had a step mother I only had to live with for a couple of years that treated my brother and I wildly different from her own children.

Yes, Jon was raised in luxury, but sociologists will tell you that after basic necessities are met (food and shelter), relativity is a large source of perception. Just ignoring Jon may have been enough, you don't think Robb would have noticed that? It's pretty clear from certain memories Jon has that Cat was training her children to not think of Jon as one of them. She didn't have to be directly cruel to Jon.

Now, I don't blame Cat for not being a great mother to Jon, and you are right, Ned put her in that position. Hell, the way Lysa treated Sansa makes me think this is hereditary lol However, I think she was very middle of the road, someone like Cersei would have been worse (well, Jon would be dead), but there are probably others who would have made him feel welcome.

Also, I think Ned really could have trusted Cat with the information regarding Jon's parentage (I am one who believes the R+L=J theory) and that would have changed everything. I think she would not have resented Ned for the deception they needed to perpetrate though she might have felt the odd bit of discomfort.

I also do not believe, despite the apparent tenor of my original post, that people's actions are a result of only one factor. The deep sense of honour instilled in Robb by his Father was just as much a cause. So, I guess I believe that things may have gone differently if Cat was nice or Ned was less honourable.

[Nine of Spades]

Also, I think Ned really could have trusted Cat with the information regarding Jon's parentage (I am one who believes the R+L=J theory) and that would have changed everything. I think she would not have resented Ned for the deception they needed to perpetrate though she might have felt the odd bit of discomfort.

Hmm, I'm not so sure, not if she thought her children were put in danger by it. I think her reaction would have been about the same as you would to having a 50 year old soviet nuclear reactor in your backyard.

[Happy Ent]

As the daughter of a great House, Catelyn was thoroughly schooled in controlling her emotions and doing the proper thing, no matter how much stress she was experiencing.

…which would be to tell Ned to foster his bastard somewhere else, right? “The proper thing” certainly wouldn’t be to treat Jon as her son, or even her step-son, or her foster child. He is neither.

Jon's presence was a thorn in her side. She withheld her affection. She was cold and never praised or encouraged him. He was treated with less concern than the servants were. She never tucked him in, never sang to him, and never gave him cookies.

Neither would anybody in Westeros expect her to do such a thing. She’s maybe expected to so some of those things for her own children (but mostly not, we’re not talking about modern family here), maybe-maybe extend a bit of attention to her husband’s foster child Theon Greyjoy (but nowhere near what you’re describing.)

But nobody in Westeros or in our world, for that matter would ever expect her to treat her husband’s bastard with anything close to affection.

[Rinso]

Look, Catelyn had a good reason to dislike Jon, and I'm not talking about how he represented Ned's infidelity. A bastard son is a danger to the legitimate children and their line of succession. Yes, Jon was Robb's best friend and he would never harm his other siblings, and I'm sure that Catelyn saw that, but it's not as simple as that. What about Jon's children, if he at one point sired any? And what about their relationship with Robb's children, Bran's, Sansa's? In Westeros the danger of having a nobleborn bastard usurping the line of succession is a real one. Think of the Blackfyre Rebellion, that's exactly how it happened - the bastard children of Aegon IV decided to usurp the Iron Throne from their legitimately born brother Daeron. It's perfectly normal for Catelyn, who is scarcely anything else than a dutiful wife and a caring mother, to be intimidated and appalled by Jon's existance, even if he obviously is a good person.

And besides, nobody could and should expect her to act like Jon's mother. Not in Westeros, nor even here in real world, I would expect a woman to act like a loving mother to a child who was born from her husband's infidelity. It sucks for Jon, but Ned is more to blame here than Catelyn. And that's why, replying to the topicstarting question, Robb married Jayne - because he didn't want to make his father's mistake.

[Happy Ent]

And that's why, replying to the topicstarting question, Robb married Jayne - because he didn't want to make his father's mistake.

This is tangential, but let me point out that the act of not marrying Jeyne Westerling would not have been a repetition of Ned’s mistake.

To repeat what Ned did, Robb would have to have already been married to Random Freygirl, then made the direwolf with two backs with Jeyne, then taken her child (instead of marrying her) and dumbed it into Random Freygirl’s lap for her to raise as a trueborn son. So there’s still a pretty large gap between Robb’s behaviour and the galling behaviour of Ned.

Of course, Whitering would find some way to make it all the fault of Random Freygirl.

[Horza]

I think it's safe to say that all evil in the book, and indeed life itself is the result of Catelyn disliking Jon Snow.

[TrueMetis]

Hmm, I'm not so sure, not if she thought her children were put in danger by it. I think her reaction would have been about the same as you would to having a 50 year old soviet nuclear reactor in your backyard.

Sweet free electricity?

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I am sure somebody has probably stated this before but I am pretty sure Robb felt he had to marry Jeyne because of the way Cat treated Jon.

All of the children, except maybe Sansa, really loved Jon and without Cat's influence would definitely have thought of him as their brother. Jon basically got treated like shit because of Cat. Robb saw this for his whole life and would not want to be responsible for a child being treated that way.

So, Cat played a huge role in Robb getting killed, but even as her life nears its end she still thinks that men just won't listen to her even though she is right; for example, regarding Robb's legitimization of Jon.

Karma can really smack you a lot harder than it should.

Cat to me seemed to have a thing against all bastards, whether that stemmed from Jon or not i do not know.

But to say she treated him like shit is exagerrating, in a book where there many instances of rape and brutality. Did she look down upon him, sure, but people do that all the time, doesn't mean they treat everybody like like shit. From what we know he was treated exactly like the rest of Ned's kids with the exception of cat not liking him as much. And outside of one comment in a time of great ditress, albeit a nasty one, she shows no ill emotion toward Jon.

And the fact that Robb married Jeyne, instead of just having sex with her is what did Robb in. if Robb where to never go and marry her and was still set to be married to random Frey girl then all would be well. Robb is responsible for his own death since he chose to marry someone else.

[Whitering]

Cat to me seemed to have a thing against all bastards, whether that stemmed from Jon or not i do not know.

But to say she treated him like shit is exagerrating, in a book where there many instances of rape and brutality. Did she look down upon him, sure, but people do that all the time, doesn't mean they treat everybody like like shit. From what we know he was treated exactly like the rest of Ned's kids with the exception of cat not liking him as much. And outside of one comment in a time of great ditress, albeit a nasty one, she shows no ill emotion toward Jon.

And the fact that Robb married Jeyne, instead of just having sex with her is what did Robb in. if Robb where to never go and marry her and was still set to be married to random Frey girl then all would be well. Robb is responsible for his own death since he chose to marry someone else.

Well, given that it is an actual crime in modern western societies to neglect your children, or your aged/disable parents (and ya, she wasn't even close to that since she allowed him a pretty decent life), it does show that inaction can have consequences similar to abuse.

Ignoring someone pointedly and undermining them with the other children, which I am pretty sure she did, is shitty. Ya she's not Gregor Clegane heh

Robb marrying Jeyne insured that any child that resulted from their union (couldn't happen because mommy bear was feeding her bad juice) would not be a "bastard". I am not saying this is the only reason he married her and I am only looking at a fixed point in the causal chain. Her inability to love Jon may have stemmed from her own childhood. I think she is well aware of how her own father would have viewed a bastard child (termination).

Too bad she wasn't Dornish.

[Amae Koromo]

Is there any instance in the series of a noble lady treating the bastards of her husband better than Catelyn did?

Heck, Robert's kids were living a very poor life. And he was the king.

If anything, Jon was treated much better than other bastards in the series. The only one treated well that I can remember of is probably Ramsay Bolton. And he is the only living child of Roose. And before that he was not living in his father's castle

[mormont]

Not only did she treat Jon like dirt, she didn't even behave very well toward her true first born Robb, undermining him in front of his generals.

When did this happen? Even in private, she is quite careful not to undermine Robb's confidence - in fact she makes a point of it, even when she personally disagrees with him. The only time she disobeys him, she submits to his authority in deciding her punishment without demur. The rest of the time, her behaviour towards Robb (in front of his generals or in private) is pretty much impeccable, so far as I recall.

Cat to me seemed to have a thing against all bastards, whether that stemmed from Jon or not i do not know.

I think Cat's attitude to bastards is fairly typical of Westeros. In fact, she's quite sympathetic to Mya's plight, for example, though she does have a flash of negative feeling.

Well, given that it is an actual crime in modern western societies to neglect your children, or your aged/disable parents (and ya, she wasn't even close to that since she allowed him a pretty decent life), it does show that inaction can have consequences similar to abuse.

Erm, you acknowledge that these two things are completely different, and then say that the first shows that the second can have similar consequences? This doesn't even make sense on its own terms. Either they're the same or they're different.

[Datepalm]

Cat to me seemed to have a thing against all bastards, whether that stemmed from Jon or not i do not know.

Eh, not really seeing it. This is a place where lamarkian prejudice like 'bastards are born shifty' is taken more or less seriously and social status being hard wired by birth is the natural god-given order of things. Against this, we have Cat's rather modern sympathy for Mia's naivety and lousy lot in life and horror at the rumors Cercei had bastards killed.