The Wise Man's Fear III [Spoilers and Speculation within]

[ShanRawr]

In Chapter 14 Kvothe finds The Book of Secrets. It sounds like a possible encyclopedia of the Fae. There is a poem about the Chandrian in it:

The Chandrian move from place to place,

But they never leave a trace.

They hold their secrets very tight,

But they never scratch and they never bite.

They never fight and they never fuss.

In fact they are quite nice to us.

They come and they go in the blink of an eye,

Like a bright bolt of lightning out of the sky.

Kvothe dismisses it, because it doesn't fit what he wants to hear at the time. He doesn't think the author is taking it seriously. However, everything listed there (except maybe the scratching and biting?) has been shown to be signs of the Chandrian and they do hold their secrets very tight.

This is one area where I feel Kvothe isn't a reliable narrator. He may embellish his stories or not, but if the third book has a major plot twist concerning something he lied about, I will be very disappointed. I'm expecting to find that Kvothe misinterpreted events instead. He seems to be pretty good at that.

My real question is - who would find the Chandrian nice?

[wrathofdog]

_{I hesistate to get drawn into this again...}

_{Does the topic of the Adem being clueless about pregnancy stir strong emotions in you? I found it credulity straining; I'm not trying to troll you.}

_{They do. Kvothe asks the same thing. Penthe says they are not like animals. Explained? Yes. Poorly explained? Probably?}

_{You're right, I'd forgotten about that. That makes it even worse. They can acknowledge that paternity exists among animals and is a necessary factor in their reproduction, but they find it absurd - laughable even - that foreigners believe the same concept exists in humans? Not only that, but they lack even a word for paternity, so how do they, as a civilization that practices animal husbandry, discuss the fundamental interaction between animals that produces new animals?}

_{I'm sorry, but in terms of world-building, the Adem fail on multiple levels. Their culture just doesn't make sense. It's especially jarring in comparison to the rest of the world; everything from the currency to the lunar cycle to the system of sympathy are so well planned and logical. It's what drew me into the books in the first place. Then, out of nowhere, feminist jedi who don't understand the basic principle of human reproduction.}

_{The Levinshir scenes were terrifying. Kvothe is not like us.}

_{I found them more cringe-inducing than terrifying. After the bizarre parody that was Ademre, Kvothe suddenly rescuing two damsels in distress and torturing and maiming everyone who so much as mouths off to them came across as a little heavy handed. I think Rothfuss has a bit of a tendency to Mary Sueishness; it was one of the principle criticisms of TNoTW, and it's showing its face in these scenes, imo.}

[jurble]

From the probability trance I give you these series of events:

Denna's song attracts the Chandrian. Haliax is like "Whatever," since the song doesn't actually contain any true names. As we've seen, though, Cinder is a douchebag. He enjoys killing people, and doesn't seem to enjoy being a tool of Haliax's will. Cinder will, on a whim, decide to kill Denna, simply for attracting his attention. Kvothe will end up driving him off, and Cinder drops his sword, Folly, during the fight.

I mean, it's entirely possible, even, that Cinder is already dead. But Bast mentions "Haliax and all of the Chandrian" not "the remaining Chandrian", so yeah.

[Volsungr]

Wrathofthedog. He hesistates to get into it because we have discussed it a fair amount already, if you look back a few pages. Theres a few of us who have pointed out the major problems with the Adem and few who have defended the Adem why I am still not sure.

[wrathofdog]

From the probability trance I give you these series of events:

Denna's song attracts the Chandrian. Haliax is like "Whatever," since the song doesn't actually contain any true names. As we've seen, though, Cinder is a douchebag. He enjoys killing people, and doesn't seem to enjoy being a tool of Haliax's will. Cinder will, on a whim, decide to kill Denna, simply for attracting his attention. Kvothe will end up driving him off, and Cinder drops his sword, Folly, during the fight.

I tend to think that Denna's patron is a lackey of the Chandrian, if not Cinder himself (Kvothe did name him "Master Ash", after all), and the Chandrian are trying to get this song made. If anything is more evil than killing everyone who knows the facts of their existence, killing them and then replacing the true facts with heroic lies is.

It could be that the Chandrian don't want to be forgotten at all; they just want to be remembered in a particular way. Perhaps they're even responsible for expunging the records of the Amyr, and part of Haliax' long term plan involves rewriting the history of both groups.

How this would serve Manet, I'm not sure.

Wrathofthedog. He hesistates to get into it because we have discussed it a fair amount already, if you look back a few pages. Theres a few of us who have pointed out the major problems with the Adem and few who have defended the Adem why I am still not sure.

Indeed.

[jurble]

(Kvothe did name him "Master Ash", after all)

Hmm. Kvothe's unintentional naming powers do attract Elodin's attention. But, that would mean Bredon is Cinder, because he's definitely Master Ash.

[wrathofdog]

Hmm. Kvothe's unintentional naming powers do attract Elodin's attention. But, that would mean Bredon is Cinder, because he's definitely Master Ash.

Yeah, it does start to break down there. However, earlier in these threads, someone pointed out, in a remarkable stroke of insight, that Cinder's true name is Ferula (at least this is the word that Haliax binds him with in TNotW), and a "ferule" is a stick or cane used to punish. And we know from the Cthaeh that Denna's patron beats her with a cane. And it is pointed out that Bredon carries a cane.

So, as incongruous as it appears at first glance, and though their personalities seem polar opposites, Bredon may actually be Cinder in disguise.

Edit: A thought occurs to me. Reading this discussion, it seems to be taken for granted that Cinder's personality is psychotic and unrestrained, while Bredon is calm and controlled. But are we sure that Cinder is actually incapable of restraint? It's been a while since I read TNotW, but all I recall Cinder doing in that book is taunting Kvothe, and of course we learn later that he tortured Kvothe's mother. Cruel and sadistic, yes, but I don't remember him doing anything terribly brash. Maybe my memory is erring here, but could Cinder perhaps be fashioning enough of a veneer of civility to pass as a mild courtier? Does what little we know of him actually preclude him being Bredon?

Just a thought.

[Ski the Swift]

Yeah, it does start to break down there. However, earlier in these threads, someone pointed out, in a remarkable stroke of insight, that Cinder's true name is Ferula (at least this is the word that Haliax binds him with in TNotW), and a "ferule" is a stick or cane used to punish. And we know from the Cthaeh that Denna's patron beats her with a cane. And it is pointed out that Bredon carries a cane.

So, as incongruous as it appears at first glance, and though their personalities seem polar opposites, Bredon may actually be Cinder in disguise.

Edit: A thought occurs to me. Reading this discussion, it seems to be taken for granted that Cinder's personality is psychotic and unrestrained, while Bredon is calm and controlled. But are we sure that Cinder is actually incapable of restraint? It's been a while since I read TNotW, but all I recall Cinder doing in that book is taunting Kvothe, and of course we learn later that he tortured Kvothe's mother. Cruel and sadistic, yes, but I don't remember him doing anything terribly brash. Maybe my memory is erring here, but could Cinder perhaps be fashioning enough of a veneer of civility to pass as a mild courtier? Does what little we know of him actually preclude him being Bredon?

Just a thought.

That is a very good catch. Kvothe does retell the meeting of Bredon as if he was a major sort of fellow then he amounted to not much at all thus far.

[Slick Mongoose]

On the subject of Bredon, I was wondering what the "pagan rituals" might be. I accept that he's probably a Chandrian (or servant thereof), but what exactly would they be doing ritual-wise?

[Decius]

Kvothe recognizes Cinder from seeing him moving from afar (even if he only later realizes who it was), but doesn't recognize him when he spends hours upon hours right opposite of him? Seems unlikely. Bredon surely is important in some way, maybe he is Master Ash, maybe he is an Amyr, but I doubt he is Cinder.

[wrathofdog]

Kvothe recognizes Cinder from seeing him moving from afar (even if he only later realizes who it was), but doesn't recognize him when he spends hours upon hours right opposite of him? Seems unlikely. Bredon surely is important in some way, maybe he is Master Ash, maybe he is an Amyr, but I doubt he is Cinder.

It doesn't seem likely that Bredon is Cinder, but there is a weird amount of evidence pointing to it. We do know that the Chandrian can hide their signs, which would be rather useless if they couldn't disguise their appearances as well. It also occurs to me that Haliax knows Cinder's Name, so perhaps he can use it to change his appearance?

It's the personality differences that bother me. Does Cinder have it in him to "play a beautiful game?"

On the subject of Bredon, I was wondering what the "pagan rituals" might be. I accept that he's probably a Chandrian (or servant thereof), but what exactly would they be doing ritual-wise?

I thought that was probably a red herring. If the Chandrian or their servants actually do engage in pagan rituals, I think its safe to assume that they don't leave witnesses around to spread rumors about it. I get the impression that the Chandrian are distinctly disapproving of witnesses in general.

More likely, the rumors were exactly as valid as Kvothe assumed they were.

[Gaston de Foix]

You're right, I'd forgotten about that. That makes it even worse. They can acknowledge that paternity exists among animals and is a necessary factor in their reproduction, but they find it absurd - laughable even - that foreigners believe the same concept exists in humans? Not only that, but they lack even a word for paternity, so how do they, as a civilization that practices animal husbandry, discuss the fundamental interaction between animals that produces new animals?

I'm sorry, but in terms of world-building, the Adem fail on multiple levels. Their culture just doesn't make sense. It's especially jarring in comparison to the rest of the world; everything from the currency to the lunar cycle to the system of sympathy are so well planned and logical. It's what drew me into the books in the first place. Then, out of nowhere, feminist jedi who don't understand the basic principle of human reproduction.

I found them more cringe-inducing than terrifying. After the bizarre parody that was Ademre, Kvothe suddenly rescuing two damsels in distress and torturing and maiming everyone who so much as mouths off to them came across as a little heavy handed. I think Rothfuss has a bit of a tendency to Mary Sueishness; it was one of the principle criticisms of TNoTW, and it's showing its face in these scenes, imo.

I think there may be something going on biologically or diet wise among the Adem that makes them resistant to pregnancy. Exceptionally low birth rates seem frequent there and that explains why a concept of paternity is difficult for them to grasp.

A culture of nomads who settled and became mercenaries/fierce warriors actually makes a great deal of sense. There are multiple races who made that transition.

I think the scene with Jason and the reaction from everyone to that was heavy-handed and Gary Stuish. The scene where Kvothe kills the false troupers wasn't. To me it was interesting and well presented.

[wrathofdog]

I think there may be something going on biologically or diet wise among the Adem that makes them resistant to pregnancy. Exceptionally low birth rates seem frequent there and that explains why a concept of paternity is difficult for them to grasp.

Yeah, maybe.

I think the scene with Jason and the reaction from everyone to that was heavy-handed and Gary Stuish. The scene where Kvothe kills the false troupers wasn't. To me it was interesting and well presented.

Yes, I agree; I actually really liked the scene in which Kvothe kills the false troupers. Though I think it would have been about a hundred times more powerful if there hadn't been any damsels in distress present; if they were just thieves, and Kvothe had executed them for sullying the name of the Edema Ruh. Imagine him trying to explain that to the Maer.

That they were rapists and kidnappers gave Kvothe the obvious moral justification to kill them, and it weakened the impact of the scene, imo. I would have liked to see it as an exploration of Kvothe's darker side and of what it means to be Ruh. Ah, well. The rest of the book was stellar.

[Happy Ent]

I read it and thought it was really good, of a level with Martin and Bakker. I couldn’t put it down. The world-building is as good as anything I’ve seen, the characterisation of both Kvothe and the various minor characters is subtle and believable, and the plot is just a gem.

[Calibandar]

I figure that for an April fool's day review from the Arboreal fiend, since he didn't care much for Name of the Wind at all.

[Slick Mongoose]

I figure that for an April fool's day review from the Arboreal fiend, since he didn't care much for Name of the Wind at all.

You're missing the important role trees play in the book.

(And it was after midday....)

[thistlepong]

...My real question is - who would find the Chandrian nice?

All we really know, from 5000 year old stories, is that they betrayed Ergen. Kvothe is convinced they killed his troupe, but they let him live. If the Cthaeh only speaks the truth, Cinder did terrible things to his mother, but those things are non-specific; which is another reason to think of Augustine regarding it.

I mean, it's entirely possible, even, that Cinder is already dead. But Bast mentions "Haliax and all of the Chandrian" not "the remaining Chandrian", so yeah.

I can’t imagine multiple conflicts at this point, so it seems like the story Chronicler recalls would include killing a demon rather than tricking one.

why I am still not sure.

For my part, I find your arguments in particular sound, earnest, and considered. After conceding that, I’m still interested in how it fits into and informs the rest of the story. I mean the idea was old when Herodotus wrote about it. And folks have been interrogating it since. Given the way The Kingkiller Chronicle interacts with the genre, its antecedents, and its critics, what function does this bit serve? World building tends to fall apart in one’s area of expertise: music, mathematics, technological history, biology. I trained for twelve years, and I tolerated the Adem ‘cause it was funny. They called back to the travelogues in both books. I saw hints of a more magical explanation. They have some of the answers to the great mysteries of the book. If they’re no more complex than, “Wax on, wax off,” I’ll deal. That having been said, I’m not sure I understand why it evokes such strong emotion and heavy words on the other side.

Kvothe recognizes Cinder from seeing him moving from afar (even if he only later realizes who it was), but doesn't recognize him when he spends hours upon hours right opposite of him? Seems unlikely. Bredon surely is important in some way, maybe he is Master Ash, maybe he is an Amyr, but I doubt he is Cinder.

I doubt it, too. On the other hand I have to agree with Wrathofdog. Cinder is recognizable precisely because of his grace. At age 12, Kvothe describes him as supple, relaxed, and beautiful. At the camp, he’s unperturbed. But it would be sort of lame if Haliax could just give them different bodies.

[Gaston de Foix]

World building tends to fall apart in one’s area of expertise: music, mathematics, technological history, biology. I trained for twelve years, and I tolerated the Adem ‘cause it was funny. They called back to the travelogues in both books. I saw hints of a more magical explanation. They have some of the answers to the great mysteries of the book. If they’re no more complex than, “Wax on, wax off,” I’ll deal. That having been said, I’m not sure I understand why it evokes such strong emotion and heavy words on the other side.

I doubt it, too. On the other hand I have to agree with Wrathofdog. Cinder is recognizable precisely because of his grace. At age 12, Kvothe describes him as supple, relaxed, and beautiful. At the camp, he’s unperturbed. But it would be sort of lame if Haliax could just give them different bodies.

For what it's worth, the law in the books is, to my naked eye, flawless.

It wholly undermines the instant recognisabiltiy and quicksilver movement of Cinder if it's Bredon.

[thistlepong]

It wholly undermines the instant recognisabiltiy and quicksilver movement of Cinder if it's Bredon.

Agreed.

I meant I agreed that Cinder isn't some wild animal. He's graceful and controlled.

[Gaston de Foix]

I wonder If PR has read Harry Potter. At least in the scene when Kvothe chooses a sword or has a sword chosen for him, the scene is uncannily like Harry's purchase of his wand. page 818 at least in kindle edition.