The Wise Man's Fear III [Spoilers and Speculation within]

[Jerec]

Just gathering some writing tips for myself if I ever finish a book.

- have to include ugly people, especially ugly women, or people will complain about it on forums.

I did tell myself I wouldn't include token characters of various races if my story didn't need them, but maybe some token ugly people...

[flare]

Why?

[CryHavoc]

Just gathering some writing tips for myself if I ever finish a book.

- have to include ugly people, especially ugly women, or people will complain about it on forums.

I did tell myself I wouldn't include token characters of various races if my story didn't need them, but maybe some token ugly people...

In this case, at least, I don't think it's something complaint-worthy. Rather, I think it's intentional on the author's part as a way of showing how unreliable Kvothe can be as a narrator. If all women are beautiful (especially the ones who sleep with him), what else is he exaggerating about?

But I guess I would think it bizarre in a third-person POV if everyone person were handsome or beautiful. I probably wouldn't notice if there weren't any ugly people, but every woman being described as a surpassing beauty would probably strain realism.

Edit: Can't type

[dcon]

So for something a little different (though it's been somewhat discussed before) is if he's going to do a follow up story on present-day Kvothe. This is from the interview in 07.

- What can readers expect from the two sequels and the trilogy that will follow this one?

Well.... I've already written them. So you won't have to wait forever for them to come out. They'll be released on a regular schedule. One per year.

You can also expect the second book to be written with the same degree of care and detail as this first one. You know the sophomore slump? When a writer's second novel is weaker because they're suddenly forced to write under deadline? I don't have to worry about that because my next two novels are already good to go.

He doesn't say he's not going to write a second trilogy, but doesn't say whether it will for sure be about Kvothe. I hope he writes a follow up trilogy or somehow finds a good way to end Kvothe's story in the present time.

Because if he craps out an ending I will hunt him down and smite him with the hammer of Manet, though I may need to ask Manet to do it for me as I undoubtedly can't lift his hammer.

[Gaston de Foix]

Cinder is (probably) the name he's going by, same as Haliax.s

On the subject of red herrings, has Kvothe ever been shown to stumble over one of those unconscious names? If not, you should probably be looking at the etymology of Annabelle.

I'm leaning toward Alveron; he has the temperament, the wealth, the ambition, the walking stick, Denna name checks him, ash is æ and Maer has jarring meanings, the reason for and evidence of being near Imre (Threpe,) and he sends Kvothe on a suicide mission following his fight with Denna.

Interesting Fact: The Cthaeh bit Cinder.

Re Red Herrings: Keth-Selhan (one-sock the horse) and Auri are the closest I can come to the unconscious names. But you are right, there is nothing there at least in terms of Master Ash.

I still believe, until we make a glossary of words we will never crack the language. Etymology is useless for invented languages in the book. Show me one solid connection between our world etymological meaning of a word and it's suspected or known meaning and I will change my tag to "X is my master...!".

As for the Maer being Denna's patron, again, impossible. For one thing it is implied Denna was in Yll with her patron and the Maer simply cannot mysteriously disappear from his courts for months at a time, secondly, he's sick. Third, the Maer is petty but not really cruel. In fact he seems hard and just rather than anything else. And he does't send Kvothe on a suicide mission: he knows, though how and where are left unexplained, something funny is going in the woods (magical in fact) and he tells Kvothe that before sending him and Kvothe disregards his statement as a simple excuse or superstition. But it actually has the ring of truth. He doesn't know the size of the band and really has no reason to suspect an armed camp of the size Kvothe found. HIs initial reaction to a camp of that size is shock and disbelief. Fourth the Maer doesn't appear to be in possession of even elementary magical knowledge and it is well establkished inference that Denna is learning magic from her patron. Fifth, the scene with the Maer and Lady Lackless and Kvothe was actually quasi-paternal. A weird relationship for Cinder to develop with Kvothe.

Hmm interesting thought on the Ctaeth biting Cinder. It didn't cross my mind, I thought clear was opposed to clouded, not completely dark. But the bite causes madness doesn't it? Cinder doesn't appear mad...

[Gaston de Foix]

So for something a little different (though it's been somewhat discussed before) is if he's going to do a follow up story on present-day Kvothe. This is from the interview in 07.

He doesn't say he's not going to write a second trilogy, but doesn't say whether it will for sure be about Kvothe. I hope he writes a follow up trilogy or somehow finds a good way to end Kvothe's story in the present time.

Because if he craps out an ending I will hunt him down and smite him with the hammer of Manet, though I may need to ask Manet to do it for me as I undoubtedly can't lift his hammer.

I'm sure he has a good ending to the novel. Remember this was all one story in the beginning.

[Misfortune]

I still believe, until we make a glossary of words we will never crack the language. Etymology is useless for invented languages in the book. Show me one solid connection between our world etymological meaning of a word and it's suspected or known meaning and I will change my tag to "X is my master...!".

As far as this goes, I'm going to have to disagree. We have 'Tempi' being related to 'Temper' and all that other crap, as well as the Lackey family being related to Lackless and then Lockless but also meaning 'follower', similar to how it does for us. PR's languages do seem to be related to English/Latin. However, I still dismiss Master Ash.

[thistlepong]

Show me one solid connection between our world etymological meaning of a word and it's suspected or known meaning and I will change my tag to "X is my master...!".

As far as this goes, I'm going to have to disagree. We have 'Tempi' being related to 'Temper' and all that other crap... (snip)

Grin, is that atemporal and circumstantial? For example, if the Sheer turns out to be Drossen Tor does it count regardless of how its explained?

I'm of (at least) two minds about it. On the one hand, as long as the story makes sense within itself, then comparative linguistics is probably unnecessary and possibly counterproductive. We can, for example, make a confident educated guess that El'the could mean listener with nothing outside the text. On the other hand, the author's public comments indicate a profound fascination with words, specificity and structure as well as providing texts he credits with inspiring his own. I'm reluctant to ignore that, especially when a cursory glance here or there appears revelatory. In a predictive sense, both approaches seem valuable. As proof, perhaps not.

[thistlepong]

[double]

[Gaston de Foix]

As far as this goes, I'm going to have to disagree. We have 'Tempi' being related to 'Temper' and all that other crap, as well as the Lackey family being related to Lackless and then Lockless but also meaning 'follower', similar to how it does for us. PR's languages do seem to be related to English/Latin. However, I still dismiss Master Ash.

Ok so I figure I should spell this out more clearly. The conceit of this novel, as many other novels, set in a fantasy world means the principal language the book is narrated in is by default, English. Otherwise, it would be jolly difficult to understand! Rothfuss actually draws on english quite originally (In my opinion at least, others have disagreed upthread), to strengthen the authenticity of this world. So words like lackey and vintage have an in-world explanation that they don't have in our present language. In addition to that you have more than one invented language. Off the top of my head you Ademic, Temic, Siaru, Fae, Yllish, Eld Vintic. You also have one or more unknown languages that are obviously significant plot wise.

Now Rothfuss may well have looked to old english/latin elsewhere for inspiration in designing these languages. What's transparent to me is that he has expended quite some effort in designing these languages. There are three possible explanations for how the languages work.

1. Pretty worldbuilding. This is in a way the most straightforward explanation. We don't need to know the meaning of "gremmen" or "Auri" or "Valaritas" or if we do need to know the meaning of those words, it is just because significant plot points hinge on those words and other words such as the song Dedan sings about Felurian which is a whole four lines of Fae language don't contain information about plot. If Rothfuss has been slipshod or lazy, they might not even be translatable because they've just been made up for the occaison.

2. A treasure hunt. This would be most like Navani's notebook in A Way of Kings, which was decoded after the book was published. That is to say there is a significant (or multiple significant plot points) of information stuck in apparently meaningless script and a resourceful reader or a super resourceful reader or a community would be able to decode and in fact be consciously invited to try by the author and gain a deeper understanding of the plot as a reward or at the very least the novel they were reading and the world created.

3. Consistent world building with structural clues. In this explanation the languages all have an internal logic and if not grammar, at least vocabulary. There isn't a treasure hunt element to it consciously implanted by the author, but the telling of the story requires the author to place certain guns on the mantle, to use certain words in certain contexts of his invented vocabulary, and it is possible to notice certain linkages and infer certain important things about the world and possibly the plot because he has done things whether in a self-aware manner or not.

One more preliminary point. As Misfortune pointed out, we are told in-story itself that there may be a common linguistic origin for multiple languages, and our protagonist himself is quite excited by the idea. This suggests (3) is the likeliest option, but it's not dispositive of the issue.

On this forum we've embarked on quite extensive analyses of some of the obviously mysterious words and languages in the books, but whether we've been doing in-book or in-series comparisons or trying to work out the meaning by referring to latin/english whatever we haven't been differentiating between various languages. What we haven't done is actually separate the words, read them in their context and see whether taken as a whole we can spot linkages we might otherwise miss. There have been some good catches and some wonderful feats of memory. We came up with Rhin meaning shape for instance, and El'the seems to have a sound in-world explanation for meaning listener. But what we haven't done is try to crack languages as a whole. I am prepared to be wholly wrong about this, but so far all the eytmological speculation I have read, just rubs against my own sense of the feel of the novel. It seems a little too shortcutty for Rothfuss to have Drossen Tor= Severen or sheer.

This is why I think we need to create a glossary. It would be a structured way to at least try and see whether we get anywhere in translating Felurian's four lines of song or Valaritas. I can't really promise that we will, but that's sort of the point. Until we embark on this exercise we can't say whether (1) or (2) or (3) or some variation thereof are true. Obviously I don't have the time or energy to do this on my own and even if I did this would benefit from being a cumulative enterprise. Any takers?

[thistlepong]

Tempi

In text:

"Tempi means 'little iron.' Tempa means iron, and it means to strike iron, and it means angry..."

In Aturan temper means angry... And it is also something you do with iron when forging it into steel."

Ademic

tempi, tempa

Aturan

related

temper, temperament

possible relative of

tempt, temptation, temple

temperate, temperature

languages

Tema, Temic (

antecedent of Tema

)

proper nouns

Temsford (

from when the azzie will presumably come to Levinshir to try Kvothe

)

Temfalls (

located north of Imre, south of Trebon

)

Temper Glen (

where Kvothe alleges he learned the Lackless rhyme from some kids

)

Tempi

(

Italian, English

) – plural of tempo

Like that?

[Misfortune]

Forgive me then, Grinachu. I thought you were stating that we can't make the Ash -> Cinder connection because the tree ash and the substance ash might have different words in Aturan. I was just pointing out examples like Tempi being related to iron and anger, as well as Lackey meaning Lack-key and also lackey would render such an argument moot. As far as the concept of making a glossary, I agree that it is sound and the only real way of going about trying to 'translate' some of the more essential words/phrases. I don't have the patience for it, though.

[Gaston de Foix]

Tempi

In text:

"Tempi means 'little iron.' Tempa means iron, and it means to strike iron, and it means angry..."

In Aturan temper means angry... And it is also something you do with iron when forging it into steel."

Ademic

tempi, tempa

Aturan

related

temper, temperament

possible relative of

tempt, temptation, temple

temperate, temperature

languages

Tema, Temic (

antecedent of Tema

)

proper nouns

Temsford (

from when the azzie will presumably come to Levinshir to try Kvothe

)

Temfalls (

located north of Imre, south of Trebon

)

Temper Glen (

where Kvothe alleges he learned the Lackless rhyme from some kids

)

Tempi

(

Italian, English

) – plural of tempo

Like that?

that's exactly it. I was going to put it in a table, but given the amount of relevant information that would probably just be confusing.

[The Iceman of the North]

Tempi

(

Italian, English

) – plural of tempo

Like that?

For our real world link, the English word 'temper' is more relevant than 'tempi'. From Wiktionary:

From Middle English

temperen

< Old English

*temprian

< Latin

temperare

(“to divide or proportion duly, mingle in due proportion, qualify, temper, regulate, rule, intransitive observe measure, be moderate or temperate”) <

tempus

(“time, fit season”); see

temporal

.

[Thaykora]

I've been working down two paths for some additional insight into the books, I believe this falls under what someone referred to as a Treasure Hunt. So here's what I brought ya:

1.) Google Docs Link I've started from my own notes that can be either crowd-sourced into a more comprehensive document, or merely used for your own curiosity. Feel free to contribute bits and parts, or if so inspired, build it up to the caliber of thistlepong's recent post about Tempi.

2.) If you want to really get going on a treasure hunt, I suggest looking into Indra, the Hindu thunder-god. He seems to have an interesting epithet *wink* ...and some weird story where he is enraged by the effects of some sort of ambrosia, aided by celestial beings, and then he breaks open the "vala" with thunder. What's that he finds inside? Probably not more red herrings. :)

[thistlepong]

For our real world link, the English word 'temper' is more relevant than 'tempi'.

I'm of the opinion that if the word itself exists then that's one I'ma point to. Otherwise I might as well add tem, tems, tempa, and tema; all of which are discoverable as well. /shrug

If you want to really get going on a treasure hunt, I suggest looking into Indra, the Hindu thunder-god.

(snipped)

I want to request in the nicest way possible that you not be coy. If Indra provides an intertextual referent that you feel illuminates something about the text, please share it.

By way of example I could note that The theft of the moon might come from The Brothers Grimm's "The Moon." The folks that steal the moon are in total darkness at night, with no stars, and have elves and dwarves in their hood. Meaningful, probably not. Interesting, sure. So what's up with Indra?

[Thaykora]

It seems there are little bits and pieced from all the world mythologies that were pieced together to build the story. Egyptian ideas of the soul talk of how every person is born with a secret name. The Egyptian story of Osiris and Isis mirrors that of Lanre and Lyra, the god known as Set may be a reference to Iax and Horus is definitely the inspiration for Selitos. Homer's Illiad (also known as The Song of Ilion) and Greek myth about Hercules talk of how an Oracle was sought out by Hercules and that interaction led to Hercules going on 12 tasks of atonement. In Hindu, the tale of Indra has more parallels than any other I've seen yet. Here's the link to the juicy stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala_(Vedic)

Update 1: Also, the 10th of Hercules' 12 labors is to capture the "Cattle of Geryon". Many parts are very similar to the story linked above, including references to cattle.

Update 2: Many of the 12 tasks can be roughly related to the events that take place after Kvothe speaks with the Cthae. Notably, the 5th labor requires him to clean the Augean stables, where there were more 'cattle' than anywhere else in the world. I think it's safe to say, this is a reference to the Archives, and that cattle are being interpreted as books.

Update 3: The 9th labor sends Herc to the 'Amazons' (Adem), they are worried he has come to steal something of theirs, and he narrowly escapes with his life. Notably, it involves a character named Penthesilea (Penthe?)

[thistlepong]

Regarding the case for etymology:

Rothfuss, 02-11-08

Since I made my post about the translations of the book, a few people have asked if I would make my list of Translator guidelines public.

Unfortunately, I can’t. Well… that’s not true. I won’t. There are too many secrets in there.

Even if there weren’t secrets I’d be hesitant to do it. Not just because I’m cussed (though I am.) But because a lot of the beauty in a book comes from the things that are inobvious. If I pointed them all out to you, it would ruin it. It’s like when you have to explain a joke, you might get it afterwards, but it’s not really funny.

A little further down:

The Shamble-men are entirely my own creation. The term doesn’t sound particularly scary in English either. But it have vaguely menacing, creepy overtones. This is partly because there is an old usage of the word “shambles” that also means a place where you butcher animals.

[Gaston de Foix]

Regarding the case for etymology:

Rothfuss, 02-11-08

A little further down:

hmmm...that's really interesting. Let me think about your substantive point for a bit.

Two side-thoughts.

What was the forum he was referencing? I don't think there is one is there?

I wonder what the first translator's post said.

[thistlepong]

What was the forum he was referencing? I don't think there is one is there?

I wonder what the first translator's post said.

I believe he's referencing the ability to thread answers in the comment section.

His first 'Perils of Translation' post is here.