The Wise Man's Fear III [Spoilers and Speculation within]

[ShanRawr]

Why does Felurian not look like the Cthaeh? Why does she need to have hooves? There are different types of Fae.

[Skia]

Something they have in common are their eyes I believe, or at least the possibility to change them - when Felurian gets angry her eyes change colour; isn't that the same with Bast in the first book (something was with them, I can't look it up right now)? Otherwise the appearance of the Fae can differ a lot (at least I got this impression while reading).

[Guy Kilmore]

Show me some textual evidence that their is magic involved and I will be interested, your tone in the bottom of the post comes off as bit of an add hominem. One example does not make a rule. My perspective is based on observation of general trends.

Seeing the wind is not the same as calling the wind, and the legendary capacities of the founder of a group is not the same as general technique of the group.

The Lethanta is clearly based on Gung Fu, one of the traditional idea's of gung fu is that one can cultivate Chi, or internal energy and this can amplify your physical technique and power so that when you strike you strike not just with your muscle and bone but with a metaphysical force. Many traditional martial artists speak of master's who could supposedly knock you over without touching you. If this was say possible in metaphysics of fantasy world and Chi was far more powerful then physical force and males and females were roughly equall in developing chi, the physical differences would become relatively trivial(the demographic problem is there of course). The Lethanta is not described this way, never is their talk of the internal energy behind the strike its all about being in the right position to apply leverage just like real life combat expect some how in Kvotheland the force applied to the leverage has ceased to matter.

The sociological effects of magic should definitely be considered in good world building but from my perspective its easier to stomach a world that is relatively familar in its outlines despite magic then a world that very different were magic doesn't offer a good reason why.

I also had some dissonance with the social/technological incongruence in kvotheland. Day to day technology like transport and weaponry seems medieval, but social mores and religious influence and scientific knowledge all seem more like 18th or 19th centuries. I think PR manages to skim past some of these issues with minimal enough depth that they don't bother me to much while the Adem are outlined in great and illogical depth. The other reason it bugged me more was probably simply because martial arts and anthropology are my areas of expertise were as history and technology are areas I am less deeply familar with.

With all the references to wind and naming, Kvothe "seeing" the wind to move around the blade tree all seem to suggest some sort of magical revelation. I can't really change your opinion on this, but it seems that being able to "truly see" something is a mystical part of naming it. (I think "understanding" what you "see" is another and it wouldn't surprise me that strength of "will" is another aspect.)

The Adem fighting ability based upon the Lethani (the Will aka Alar) with the Ketan (the Phsyical Expression aka Symbpathy et al.) all seem in line with the other mystical training that Kvothe received. You yourself said that Sympathy seems ground in physical laws. That strength of will can manipulate the enviornment to do certain things and the stronger the will the more able. With the Adem, similar, strength of will allows you to achieve certain physical bodies and allows you to increase your force, meaning when the appropriate leverage is used it is to greater effect. I see too many similarities to just discount it. As for examples of mysticism we have the following:

Seeing the wind and dodging the knife tree

The woman who is the foundation for this stuff also "see"s the wind

As Kvothe understands the Lethani he seems to get better with the Ketan

The naming ritual of the Maeder (or whatever her name was)

Their description of Anger/Passion seems similar to some of the description of Alar

Their naming rituals with weapons, each warrior wields a weapon who's name they seek to fully understand

This is without referencing the text. I have a background in psychology and sociology and this is something that also speaks to me in what I am reading; I think you are making the mistake by comparing a culture which has the presence of a moon that is magical to a culture where there is no magic. Instead focus upon internal comparisons. The technology fails at this test, but as someone stated up thread we don't really have enough information about it to really evaluate it well.

[polishgenius]

Though honestly, short of the use of phrases like "as good as" or "better than," it shouldn't give offense anyway. The best are always going to be used as the measure, are always going to invite comparison.

Exactly. Grinds my gears when I compare someone to someone else (in whatever arena) and people take it as meaning I think they're as good. I clearly said right then that what reminded me of Wolfe was the unreliable narrator, the focus on distorted stories from the past being told in-text and the general episodic journey layout. Nothing in there about quality at all.

p.s. I'm not a she. :P

Something they have in common are their eyes I believe, or at least the possibility to change them - when Felurian gets angry her eyes change colour; isn't that the same with Bast in the first book (something was with them, I can't look it up right now)?

Bast's eyes go solid in colour (like grinachu said) when his glamour drops under the influence of iron. It's specifically mentioned that the colour is the same as his normal eye colour though.

That said, I think that Kvothe's eye-colour changing is a definite indication that he's got some Fae in him, too much is made of it I think.

But yeah, no-one said Fae have to be similar. Skin-walkers are described as creatures of the Fae, no? And they're defo not similar. Are Scrael also fae creatures? I got that impression.

[Gaston de Foix]

But yeah, no-one said Fae have to be similar. Skin-walkers are described as creatures of the Fae, no? And they're defo not similar. Are Scrael also fae creatures? I got that impression.

In Tad Williams' novels, fairy people who are older and more noble generally resemble humans. The more recent and common they are, the more unusual. Perhaps there is a similar evolutionary thing going?

Having thought about it, I am forced to the conclusion that the Fae people existed before the creation of Fae. At least some of those people at any rate. Otherwise we can't make sense of Felurian's immortality.

[SkiesOfAzel]

I think maybe only small children can do that? None of the other kids Mary have seem to be able to see through the glamour.

A thought just crossed my mind- does Felurian have hooves? Why not?

Iirc Kvothe implied that the child is Bast's son, so his fae blood would explain how he can see through the illusion.

[unJon]

Bast says the kid isn't his (points out that the kid has blond hair).

[unJon]

Also wanted to add that Bast's eyes do more than change from normal looking to monochromatic. In one scene as he gets angry, the eyecolor fades from blue to white.

[Seiche]

Also wanted to add that Bast's eyes do more than change from normal looking to monochromatic. In one scene as he gets angry, the eyecolor fades from blue to white.

Yes, this was made very clear at the very end of NotW when Bast confronts Chronicler.

When Bast starts calling someone manling, you know his dander is up.

[AverageGuy]

Why doesn't Felurian have hooves?

Because Manet's not into that.

[Quadratix]

Ok, this forum was a great find. I love all the idle speculation and debate.

I finish the book about a week ago, and while I enjoyed it, I have a few complaints.

My two cents:

The Cthaeh:

I loathe all-seeing anythings. Having an Oracle character suddenly robs the characters of their free will, or better put, free purpose. Now, Kvothe isn't slowing adding up a great life on his own. His life has already been summed. He now is DESTINED to open the door instead of coming upon it on his own. It robs and degrades the character.

On top of that, as other people have mentioned, how does it fit into the mythos? Was it shaped? Why?

Bleh, almost ruins the entire mythos for me. It seems unnecessary. Any info drops needed about Cinder/Denna could have been handled in a better/different way.

Interesting characters get so little time:

Puppet? Devi? Auri? I would've preferred them to the slow plodding of the forest adventure.

I think PR took his criticism too much to heart.

Mary Sue:

At one of his signings, PR mentioned how some people thought Kvothe was a Mary Sue. To combat this, now Kvothe can't handle math, alchemy, chemistry, Yllish, etc. And it wasn't just mentioned once. It was rubbed in the reader's face on multiple occasions as if screaming, "See, he's not really a Mary Sue!" I don't mind a character having flaws or lacking in knowledge. It would make sense that Kvothe can't do alchemy. I understand how chemistry could bore him. But, I miss Kvothe the genius, acquiring languages and doing math shouldn't even be an issue with his sharp memory.

Sex:

I don't know if he received criticism, but I know the lack of sex in the NOTW was noticeable. Even given the more conservative culture, I'd suspect a 15 year old boy would have some thoughts while sleeping alone on a rock with a girl. To go from no sex to a man-whore seems so jarring. Add the free-love of the Adem and there didn't seem to be a healthy middle ground. It was like he went from a virgin to sleeping with the sex goddess of his world. Oh wait, he did that.

Uneven characters:

The Maer:

The letter helped a little, but I simply don't understand this characters actions. Here is a person that saves your life, woos your woman, and discretely does your dirty work without a casualty.

1. If this person then tells you he has something to tell you away from your wife, why wouldn't you trust his judgment?

2. Even if his wife hated Kvothe, when did the Maer get pussywhipped? If she suddenly hated Dagon, would the Maer remove him from service? Or keep him because he is completely and utterly useful to the kingdom? I would think the second.

3. I know having the Maer in his pocket would've been a Deus Ex Machina of sorts, but there had to be different/better ways to go about this breakup.

Kvothe himself:

I didn't mind the time in the Fae. I didn't mind Ademre. I figured it was the time necessary to go from Kvothe the Boy to Kvothe the Man. Yet,

1. After months of learning about stillness and silence and controlling his tongue, he can't handle his rage in front of the Maer? ( I realize what Edema-hate does to his temper, but this seemed out of place given the previous chapters.)

2. As mentioned before, did he totally forget the Lethani when he wrote a childish prank letter to Ambrose?

3. Is robbing the University of the Lethani? Is the bursar that corrupt? With all the spoiled royalty around, has no one thought of this before? Are there no audits?

This action reeks of stupid and careless. Two things I never associated with Kvothe.

[-------------------------

And double checking the math, it looks like he is undercharging the University and not overcharging the Maer.

i.e.

Tuition set: 24 Tuition Charged:10 Pocketed:7 (24-10)/2

Tuition set: 50 Tuition Charged:10 Pocketed:20 (50-10)/2

The other direction looks odd with the extra -10:

Set/Charged: 24 Maer Charged: 48 Pocketed: 7 (48-24-10)/2

Set/Charged: 50 Maer Charged:100 Pocketed:20 (100-50-10)/2

(Unless the bursar is pocketing 17 and 30?)

-------------------------]

These scenes just feel like they were written very fair apart. The mindset Kvothe exited Ademre with should have been different and a bit more mature. His actions don't speak to that time period at all.

One thing I loved about NOTW was that any time Kvothe got something good, it was tempered by reality. He gradually pulled himself upward. Here, it seems that we are just going to extremes with no healthy and normal middle ground. From a virgin to a whore, from a pauper to wealthy. From a trusted adviser to completely shunned. It is jarring.

I was really anticipating this sequel. I am now more wary for the third one.

[Misfortune]

Ok, this forum was a great find. I love all the idle speculation and debate.

I finish the book about a week ago, and while I enjoyed it, I have a few complaints.

My two cents:

The Cthaeh:

I loathe all-seeing anythings. Having an Oracle character suddenly robs the characters of their free will, or better put, free purpose. Now, Kvothe isn't slowing adding up a great life on his own. His life has already been summed. He now is DESTINED to open the door instead of coming upon it on his own. It robs and degrades the character.

On top of that, as other people have mentioned, how does it fit into the mythos? Was it shaped? Why?

Bleh, almost ruins the entire mythos for me. It seems unnecessary. Any info drops needed about Cinder/Denna could have been handled in a better/different way.

Interesting characters get so little time:

Puppet? Devi? Auri? I would've preferred them to the slow plodding of the forest adventure.

I think PR took his criticism too much to heart.

Mary Sue:

At one of his signings, PR mentioned how some people thought Kvothe was a Mary Sue. To combat this, now Kvothe can't handle math, alchemy, chemistry, Yllish, etc. And it wasn't just mentioned once. It was rubbed in the reader's face on multiple occasions as if screaming, "See, he's not really a Mary Sue!" I don't mind a character having flaws or lacking in knowledge. It would make sense that Kvothe can't do alchemy. I understand how chemistry could bore him. But, I miss Kvothe the genius, acquiring languages and doing math shouldn't even be an issue with his sharp memory.

Sex:

I don't know if he received criticism, but I know the lack of sex in the NOTW was noticeable. Even given the more conservative culture, I'd suspect a 15 year old boy would have some thoughts while sleeping alone on a rock with a girl. To go from no sex to a man-whore seems so jarring. Add the free-love of the Adem and there didn't seem to be a healthy middle ground. It was like he went from a virgin to sleeping with the sex goddess of his world. Oh wait, he did that.

Uneven characters:

The Maer:

The letter helped a little, but I simply don't understand this characters actions. Here is a person that saves your life, woos your woman, and discretely does your dirty work without a casualty.

1. If this person then tells you he has something to tell you away from your wife, why wouldn't you trust his judgment?

2. Even if his wife hated Kvothe, when did the Maer get pussywhipped? If she suddenly hated Dagon, would the Maer remove him from service? Or keep him because he is completely and utterly useful to the kingdom? I would think the second.

3. I know having the Maer in his pocket would've been a Deus Ex Machina of sorts, but there had to be different/better ways to go about this breakup.

Kvothe himself:

I didn't mind the time in the Fae. I didn't mind Ademre. I figured it was the time necessary to go from Kvothe the Boy to Kvothe the Man. Yet,

1. After months of learning about stillness and silence and controlling his tongue, he can't handle his rage in front of the Maer? ( I realize what Edema-hate does to his temper, but this seemed out of place given the previous chapters.)

2. As mentioned before, did he totally forget the Lethani when he wrote a childish prank letter to Ambrose?

3. Is robbing the University of the Lethani? Is the bursar that corrupt? With all the spoiled royalty around, has no one thought of this before? Are there no audits?

This action reeks of stupid and careless. Two things I never associated with Kvothe.

[-------------------------

And double checking the math, it looks like he is undercharging the University and not overcharging the Maer.

i.e.

Tuition set: 24 Tuition Charged:10 Pocketed:7 (24-10)/2

Tuition set: 50 Tuition Charged:10 Pocketed:20 (50-10)/2

The other direction looks odd with the extra -10:

Set/Charged: 24 Maer Charged: 48 Pocketed: 7 (48-24-10)/2

Set/Charged: 50 Maer Charged:100 Pocketed:20 (100-50-10)/2

(Unless the bursar is pocketing 17 and 30?)

-------------------------]

These scenes just feel like they were written very fair apart. The mindset Kvothe exited Ademre with should have been different and a bit more mature. His actions don't speak to that time period at all.

One thing I loved about NOTW was that any time Kvothe got something good, it was tempered by reality. He gradually pulled himself upward. Here, it seems that we are just going to extremes with no healthy and normal middle ground. From a virgin to a whore, from a pauper to wealthy. From a trusted adviser to completely shunned. It is jarring.

I was really anticipating this sequel. I am now more wary for the third one.

I didn't like this book as much as the first one, but not for the reasons that you listed. They really didn't bother me much at all. I didn't find it so hard to understand the Maer's priorities. He comes first. He has two people to balance: his new, young, beautiful, wealthy wife whom he loves, and a commoner with no connections to which he owes a debt of gratitude. Exiling Kvothe neatly solves all of his problems while only costing his conscience. As a nobleman, he notably lacks one when it comes to commoners. Keeping Kvothe around would nettle his public and private life for as long as Kvothe stayed. Not so hard to do the math.

As far as the sex thing... eh. He spent 2 months to a full year in constant, intense sexual training with the most capable sexual teacher in the world. While it didn't take long in text, you have to remember that he trained with Felurian for longer than he trained with the Adem. If training with the Adem for 2 months made him a better than average warrior, then training with Felurian for up to a full year... Yeah.

Lastly, the Lethani. As far as I could tell, it was never Kvothe's intention to live by the Lethani. He went to the Ademre to find out about the Chandrian and save Tempi from death. In order to leave with his life, he had to demonstrate that he had understanding of the Lethani. He did so.

[Slick Mongoose]

Quadratix, I agree with your Cthaeh criticism, it's one of the few things I didn't like. It's one of the better points of the story that the "hero" has monumentally screwed the world. While he's still in control of his actions the Cthaeh, in picking out this future, makes it less his fault. Which is a shame.

Kvothe's morality is definitely very interesting. It's clear to me that he's not a very moral person. Remember that he was brought up very strongly to not steal. It's something that's beaten into the reader again and again - The Edema Ruh do not steal. Kvothe defends the Ruh from that accusation extremely strongly. But Kvothe steals - From the fishery, from Ambrose, from the university. It's a contradiction.

Many people try to help him. Kilvin is obviously very rigidly moral, and tries to impart that to Kvothe. Unsucessfully. Even knowing this about Kilvin, Kvothe buys a crossbow on the black market and steals supplies from the fishery. The Adem try to teach him the Lethani. But while he knows the right things to say, and he probably does understand it as well as anyone, he never makes any effort to live by it. And the Adem are clearly as unsure about his morality as Kilvin. None of this gets through to him at all.

[jurble]

Many people try to help him. Kilvin is obviously very rigidly moral, and tries to impart that to Kvothe. Unsucessfully. Even knowing this about Kilvin, Kvothe buys a crossbow on the black market and steals supplies from the fishery. The Adem try to teach him the Lethani. But while he knows the right things to say, and he probably does understand it as well as anyone, he never makes any effort to live by it. And the Adem are clearly as unsure about his morality as Kilvin. None of this gets through to him at all.

Mhmm,

It's why I think when Kvothe is expelled, it'd be best, dramatically, to have Kilvin completely losing his shit when he finds out how many Kvothe has killed using Sympathy and in general.

[ShanRawr]

Having thought about it, I am forced to the conclusion that the Fae people existed before the creation of Fae. At least some of those people at any rate. Otherwise we can't make sense of Felurian's immortality.

Felurian pretty much states she existed before the faen realm in chapter 102 when she tells the story of the namers, shapers, and the moon getting stolen. At least that was my interpretation since she talked of eating fruit from the silver tree in Murella when there was just one world. I doubt she was the only one.

[Slick Mongoose]

Mhmm,

It's why I think when Kvothe is expelled, it'd be best, dramatically, to have Kilvin completely losing his shit when he finds out how many Kvothe has killed using Sympathy and in general.

It would be much more interesting that him being kicked out for showing Devi into the archives or fiddling his tuition money. As well as a firm base for the "new chandrian" rumours.

[Slick Mongoose]

Wait, how do we know Felurian is Fae? Are her features described as anything other than human? Maybe she just lives there.

And whether she's Fae or not, could she be a "singer", as per Haliax at the start? Her magic is based on singing.

[polishgenius]

Kvothe's morality is definitely very interesting. It's clear to me that he's not a very moral person. Remember that he was brought up veery strongly to not steal. It's something that's beaten into the reader again and again - The Edema Ruh do not steal. Kvothe defends the Ruh from that accusation extremely strongly. But Kvothe steals - From the fishery, from Ambrose, from the university. It's a contradiction.

Tbh I think the propensity to steal is a relic of his time in Tarbean. Certainly I think the money scam has something to do with that- it's the first time since his family died that he's been able to live comfortably and he's taking advantage.

Kvothe's no angel, but I wouldn't say he's 'not moral'. In some senses, yeah, and he's definitely a massive egotist and a fair bit self-centered. But he's good to his friends, stands up for those who can't stand up for themselves, protects those who need it; things like that.

I think his time on the streets probably had as big if not bigger an effect on him than his whole childhood. So much of how he behaves seems a reaction to that time when he had nothing. His extreme obsession with money, his protectiveness of his possessions, especially his lute, to the point of hysteria if they're lost or broken, his willingness to break the rules to serve himself, his tendency to extreme retribution.

As for the childish letter to Ambrose, let's not forget he's still basically a child at this point.

[jurble]

Wait, how do we know Felurian is Fae? Are her features described as anything other than human? Maybe she just lives there.

And whether she's Fae or not, could she be a "singer", as per Haliax at the start? Her magic is based on singing.

The Singers are the Singers. They are the leaders of the Tahl in the Tahlenwald, nothing else. jeez.

[ShanRawr]

I'm working off the assumption that anything currently belonging in the Faen realm is Fae. If she were human, she wouldn't refer to Kvothe as manling and tell him manling stories. She acts like she belongs in the Faen realm.

In Chapter 16 Kvothe finds a book that has three chapters on faeries, one completely devoted to Felurian.

We don't have enough information on what is meant by the singers I don't think to do anything more than speculate. Personally, I don't think she is a singer in the sense that Haliax is referring to.