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The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread, Part X


Angalin

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Cat has never forgiven him for Jon. I think she may have let it go if he hadn't brought him up in Winterfell, as bastards seem to be de rigueur amongst the high lords. She thinks somthing along the line of 'he was away on a campain and boys will be boys'.But bringing him back to Winterfell and bringing him up as his own really rankled her, so obviously he had promised to do this and paid the price of her anger/scorn/disapointment and no doubt bringing it up in every domestic they had from that day onwards ;)

Actually, I think she didn't brought it up that much. Wasn't there this scene where she summons all her courage and confronts him with the rumors of Jons parentage circulating Winterfell? And Ned answers something like , he is my blood, that's all you need to know and now tell me where you did get that idea. And since then, there was never any talking to the subject. At this point I'm pretty sure she would shut up, and surely wouldn't bring it up in any fight if he was that intimidating the last time she brought it up.

And of course he paid the price by dishonoring himself, his wife, and force her to live with him like Jon would be their kid. This interpretation makes sense.

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Actually, I think she didn't brought it up that much. Wasn't there this scene where she summons all her courage and confronts him with the rumors of Jons parentage circulating Winterfell? And Ned answers something like , he is my blood, that's all you need to know and now tell me where you did get that idea. And since then, there was never any talking to the subject. At this point I'm pretty sure she would shut up, and surely wouldn't bring it up in any fight if he was that intimidating the last time she brought it up.

And of course he paid the price by dishonoring himself, his wife, and force her to live with him like Jon would be their kid. This interpretation makes sense.

I may have been transposing my own experiences a little bit Mrs Duck would never let it lie!

But I do think the subject was broched more than once..from Cats POV

"Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing that Catelyn said would persude him to send the boy away. It was one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had neer found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight, Jon was never out of sight"

I think the dishonor was also a price he had to pay. We are both right :grouphug:

Also he says "he is my blood" not "he is my son" if you can read that and not think R+L=J or at the very least ?+L=J then ??? :dunno:

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Also he says "he is my blood" not "he is my son" if you can read that and not think R+L=J or at the very least ?+L=J then ??? :dunno:

if that's the logic behind your reasoning, didn't you think jon might be brandon's child?

EDIT:

i know it's a silly theory, but i wouldn't be surprised if GRRM pulled something like that on us.

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I'm talking symbolically, not culturally or socially. Cleos Frey is a very typical Frey, all cowardice and weaselyness. It is clear that he is, symbolically and inherently a Frey, without any hint of Lannister-ness.

The Frey's and Lannisters are two of the most similar houses in the entire series. Hungry for Glory, Power, a Higher Station. Everything they do it to move their Houses forward. For the Frey's it is becoming a "Great House" on the level of Houses Stark, Tully, Arryn etc. For the Lannisters it is to rule Westeros. They both "pay their debts" an in most brutal ways, the murder of Rhaegar's children, The Red Wedding, and neither gives anything away without a price. Lordships and knighthoods for betrayal and murder, two wedding pacts and two fosterlings for crossing a bridge. The Frey's are the Lannisters without the Rock, so saying that a Frey shows no sign of being a Lannister is like saying a lesser Khalisar is nothing like Drogo's, they only differ in their means, not their ways.

Also look at Lancel, a Lannister who has turned his back on the power and wealth that come with his name in an attempt to atone for the sins of his past. Showing a humility and humbleness that has yet to be matched, and of which even Jamie, who has emerged as a truly sympathetic character, is incapable. Lancel is no Lannister Clone or he would have impregnated the Darry woman at his first chance, and ruled his keep as a lord.

By all the conventions of symbolism, Jon is Ned's son. His nature is all Stark, not Targ, and all his protestations that he's a Snow not a Stark are just setting up for him to realize his heritage as a Stark; he can't take Stannis' offer because he can't burn the Old Gods, not because he's a Targ.

And, just to repeat myself, I'm talking about theme and symbolism here, not in world logic/heraldry/genetics. I'm saying that Jon not ending up a Stark breaks all the themes of the books. Maybe it makes sense given the logic of the world, but it defies the conventions of writings.

All I'm saying is that there are conventions for symbolism, conventions for how these things work... Jon is apart, but a sibling, which is what makes sense as Ned's bastard. It doesn't make sense if he is a Targ.

I think you are off base on a couple of points here. Firstly, you can't put a writer into a box. In order to become a good author you have to learn the rules and conventions of writing this is true, because you can't build anything without strong foundations, However the great authors know how and when to break these rules, they know how to turn a lack of punctuation in art, or that using incorrect grammar and syntax can breathe life into an otherwise flat character. A great author knows all the rules which is why they know when to throw them away.

Also Jon's possession of Ghost and his inclusion into the pack in no way ties him into being a son of Ned's. Does it make him a Stark it surely does, but a Stark does not have to come from Ned, it can come from Lyanna. If Jon is not Ned's by birth he certainly is in every other way. He was raised, protected and taught by Eddard, the man Jon Snow has been becoming is due directly to Ned's influence in his life. Jon as Rhaegar's son can possess a wolf without the world ending for two reasons #1. He is a Stark by blood through his mother, and #2 He is a Stark in the way he was raised by Ned.

Daney is a Targ, the daughter of the Mad King, did her brother who signs of madness to be sure, has she ever, no. Daney is a level headed individual seeking her own path. No incest driven madness to be found. A Targ in name, but an orphan by up bringing.

The reason I like the idea that Jon and Daney + and Unknown third are the heads of the Dragon is this; the reason the Targ line failed in the first place was that they were closed off.

They mostly married their siblings, so they were closed of genetically, as well as socially/politically as they were not forging the alliances that, in this system, only a marriage can make.

They were closed off from Westeros itself allowing the wall to fall into disrepair and become undermanned. Forgetting what the First Men knew, the Long Winter and Night are not things to be taken lightly. The Targ house was in Summer so long it forgot that Winter is Coming and they didn't prepare for it.

So now Jon, born of a Stark to a Targ, raised by a Stark in the North, having spent a lifetime learning the ways of the first men, and years on the wall defending the realms of men from a threat that has become a fairy tale and not seen in living memory of living memory.

Daney, a True Targ, born of incest in the ways of Old Valaryia, but raised in both greater want and need than presumably any Targ before her. She learns to fear instability and rage from her brother and then to overcome it through the Dorthraki, she fights the injustice of slavery while at the same time learning to become a Queen worthy of Westeros, and gains the knowledge to bring back the Glory of the Past and the only weapons that could possibly hope to defeat the Others for good and all with her Dragons.

The third if as some suspect is Tyrion, not my favorite idea but I see its possibility and appeal, he brings the perspective of a third outsider to his family. He would be the Brother of Daney and the Uncle of Jon. He would also bring cunning that neither Daney nor Jon possess.

So the three would form a trinity, a powerful writing convention, a powerful symbol. Daney the mother brings the dragons forth into the world, Jon, the Wrag, can control them, and Tyrion, the politician, knows when and how to unleash them where they will have the greatest effect. Daney's longing for her lost innocence makes would make Westeros more gentle and beautiful, Tyrion's brain would make it more efficient and productive, and Jon's honor and Leadership helps to move this process along.

Also the Jon Daney connection is the only real hope House Stark has of surviving the return of Daney and her Dragons as they are marked as traitors in her mind second only to the Baratheons.

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Also the Jon Daney connection is the only real hope House Stark has of surviving the return of Daney and her Dragons as they are marked as traitors in her mind second only to the Baratheons.

i think tyrion will tell dany a different tale than the one she was told by viserys, one about her father's madness and cruelty instead of one about treacherous lords rising against their liege lord out of hunger for power.

and barristan could back that up, unless he chooses to keep long dead king's secrets.

also, i don't think dany is blood-thirsty conqueror type, out for revenge on everyone.

she would most definitely pardon both starks and baratheons if they bent their knees.

leaders of the rebellion are all dead anyway (jon arryn, ned stark, robert baratheon, tywin lannister, hoster tully) and i doubt dany would take it out on their heirs who were kids or weren't even born at the time of robert's rebellion.

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I am sure it has been mentioned numerous times in discussions on this theory, but in my re-read I just noticed that in AGOT Ch64, the Dany one where Drogo falls off his horse, Dany mentions that her Brother Rhaegar died for the woman he loved.

Obviously Dany did not know this for a fact, but she recited it internally as such. Presumably she had been told Rhaegar's side of his actions over the whole Lyanna abduction episode by Viserys, who as a Targaryan would have been likely privy to Rhaegar's reasons and motivations that would not have been shared to outsiders.

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I don't think Jon's Direwolf proves he is Ned's son. In fact think it proves the opposite, without a shadow of a doubt. What color is the Direwolf? White. What color is Dany's hair? Platinum. What color is it's eyes? Red. What color is Dany's? Violet. And finally, the eagle clawed the Direwolf's face. Why would it do that unless it had some sort of hatred for the Direwolf. Think about it. Without dragons, who would become de facto lords of the skies if not eagles.

It was right in front of our faces the whole time.

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I don't think Jon's Direwolf proves he is Ned's son. In fact think it proves the opposite, without a shadow of a doubt. What color is the Direwolf? White. What color is Dany's hair? Platinum. What color is it's eyes? Red. What color is Dany's? Violet. And finally, the eagle clawed the Direwolf's face. Why would it do that unless it had some sort of hatred for the Direwolf. Think about it. Without dragons, who would become de facto lords of the skies if not eagles.

It was right in front of our faces the whole time.

I think there may be something to the coloring of the wolf as foreshadowing/hinting at Jon's origin.

I do not however think that there is any evidence to be found in the eagles attack on Ghost. We already know that the eagle contains within it at least some part of the wilding Jon killed on the pass when he first met Yirgette. That wilding was an accomplished Warg. I think the more likely scenario as to why the eagle attacked Ghost was that the wildling warg could tell that at that moment Ghost was no ordinary direwolf and that in fact Jon was possessing him at the time.

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I think there may be something to the coloring of the wolf as foreshadowing/hinting at Jon's origin.

I do not however think that there is any evidence to be found in the eagles attack on Ghost. We already know that the eagle contains within it at least some part of the wilding Jon killed on the pass when he first met Yirgette. That wilding was an accomplished Warg. I think the more likely scenario as to why the eagle attacked Ghost was that the wildling warg could tell that at that moment Ghost was no ordinary direwolf and that in fact Jon was possessing him at the time.

Yes, wargs can sense other wargs. Also, I believe Mel knew there was something up with the eagle when she spontaneously combusted it as well.

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I think there may be something to the coloring of the wolf as foreshadowing/hinting at Jon's origin.

I do not however think that there is any evidence to be found in the eagles attack on Ghost. We already know that the eagle contains within it at least some part of the wilding Jon killed on the pass when he first met Yirgette. That wilding was an accomplished Warg. I think the more likely scenario as to why the eagle attacked Ghost was that the wildling warg could tell that at that moment Ghost was no ordinary direwolf and that in fact Jon was possessing him at the time.

Unless...

*gasp* The wildling warg was actually one of Robert's 16 bastardly children. Then the eagle which is actually a stag would be trying to kill the wolf which is actually a dragon.

It is all so clear now. George, M Night Shyamalan ain't got nothing on you.

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Unless...

*gasp* The wildling warg was actually one of Robert's 16 bastardly children. Then the eagle which is actually a stag would be trying to kill the wolf which is actually a dragon.

It is all so clear now. George, M Night Shyamalan ain't got nothing on you.

Actually, the wildling Jon killed actually was a warg, and I think there is significant textual evidence to suggest that he was inhabiting the eagle.

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Yes, wargs can sense other wargs. Also, I believe Mel knew there was something up with the eagle when she spontaneously combusted it as well.

Which means with the blood of the eagle (Stag) burned... Mel's prophesy has come to pass, which means the prophesy regarding the Stone Dragon shall come to pass. I expect in ADWD Mel's Stone Dragon will combine forces with the great other Dragon.

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I think that those who want to use the direwolf pups to say that Jon must be Ned's son are taking things a bit too literally. Remember, the pups all had the same mother. And the one thing we know for certain about Jon's parentage is that he does not have the same mother as the Stark kids.

The pups unite Jon Snow with the Stark kids as a Stark-in-all-but-name, but they don't need to mean that he's Ned's.

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Unless...

*gasp* The wildling warg was actually one of Robert's 16 bastardly children. Then the eagle which is actually a stag would be trying to kill the wolf which is actually a dragon.

It is all so clear now. George, M Night Shyamalan ain't got nothing on you.

Which means with the blood of the eagle (Stag) burned... Mel's prophesy has come to pass, which means the prophesy regarding the Stone Dragon shall come to pass. I expect in ADWD Mel's Stone Dragon will combine forces with the great other Dragon.

Wow first troll I've encountered on this board I thought that was only for youtube 4chan and reddit.

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Wow first troll I've encountered on this board I thought that was only for youtube 4chan and reddit.

As I was rereading the books for the 2nd time (1st time in 5 years) I noticed the part about the promise and I got to thinking Eddard might be Jon's uncle, not father. I came to these boards and actually wasn't surprised I was the 1,000,000,000 person to figure it out. I read through 15 pages of R+L=J trying to find something that I could contribute and I thought... Maybe the fact that Jon's wolf is albino is Martin's way of showing Jon's Targ blood. As I was about to post this, self satisfied, I hesitated. I got to thinking, am I reading too much into this? I mean white doesn't equal platinum, and red doesn't equal violet.

Now that I guessed R+L=J and found so much more evidence on these boards and realized I was trying so hard to find evidence that it was true, I was afraid I would become terribly disappointed if it wasn't.

So I decided to make fun of myself and come up with an absurd theory that I know won't come true, and therefore brace myself just in case R+L=HP.

Convoluted, yes. Perhaps I should see some professional help regarding these issues. But I meant no harm. I intended to troll no one but myself.

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Which means with the blood of the eagle (Stag) burned... Mel's prophesy has come to pass, which means the prophesy regarding the Stone Dragon shall come to pass. I expect in ADWD Mel's Stone Dragon will combine forces with the great other Dragon.

Talking about the waking of stone dragons reminds me of the theory that it actually refers to Jon making Dany pregnant again.... not to mention the whole 'wake the dragon' thing has always been kinky as hell.

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I hope to god it isn't true, though most likely it will be.

If the ending in any way involves Jon Snow being within a mile of the iron throne I will decry the series as a waste of time. He belongs in the north, and there he should stay. He swore himself to the Watch, and there he should stay. He's now commander of the Watch, and there he should stay.

Targ or no Targ, he swore an oath and I expect him to keep it, as should every right thinking character in the series and if he breaks it and gets it on with Dany he ought to kneel down and be beheaded the way his (maybe) dad beheaded that oathbreaker back at the beginning of A Game of Thrones.

Edit: I am another who follows the belief that the wolves are symbolic and that it does mean he's a son of the Starks. Again, I hope that this is in fact true, otherwise a lot of the more poetic lines and writing surrounding the wolves and their somewhat unbelievably intense connection with the children will come across as completely fake misdirection.

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I hope to god it isn't true, though most likely it will be.

If the ending in any way involves Jon Snow being within a mile of the iron throne I will decry the series as a waste of time. He belongs in the north, and there he should stay. He swore himself to the Watch, and there he should stay. He's now commander of the Watch, and there he should stay.

Targ or no Targ, he swore an oath and I expect him to keep it, as should every right thinking character in the series and if he breaks it and gets it on with Dany he ought to kneel down and be beheaded the way his (maybe) dad beheaded that oathbreaker back at the beginning of A Game of Thrones.

Edit: I am another who follows the belief that the wolves are symbolic and that it does mean he's a son of the Starks. Again, I hope that this is in fact true, otherwise a lot of the more poetic lines and writing surrounding the wolves and their somewhat unbelievably intense connection with the children will come across as completely fake misdirection.

And a lot of people agree with you that Jon should keep his oath as long as there is a wall to keep Others out of the Realm, and Others to protect the Realm from.

But if those conditions cease to exist, then that frees Jon of his oath.

GH

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