Dany gets under my skin sometimes...

[Bronn is God]

I hope Dany gets all built up to be the unstoppable Saviour of Westeros and the most loved Queen there ever was, only to get her throat slit by some unfathomable nobody like Podric Payne.

[Grogsmash]

For those of you saying that Dany is a Mary Sue, how do you all feel about Jon? Jon's story mirrors Dany's, but I would argue that he got given things easier and had a less rough time.

Both were treated poorly at times, but Dany clearly had the harder upbringing.

Dany is sold to slavery, Jon is forced to join the Night's Watch. Dany is raped night after night, Jon is harassed and bullied.

They both lose someone they love, but Dany loses a child also.

Dany is given dragons by diving into a fire, Jon gets Longclaw by burning his hand.

Jon is forced to leave his brotherhood and kill a friend, just as Dany is forced to march through the Red Wastes and loses a friend due to her orders.

Dany is given an army by her scheming in Astapor, Jon is given an army by Sam's scheming at the Wall.

Lots of things I left out, but if Dany is a Mary Sue, Jon is surely just as bad.

[Xenophon]

For those of you saying that Dany is a Mary Sue, how do you all feel about Jon?

Yeah, I never found Jon that compelling for the reasons you list. But I actually thought Daenerys was one of the best characters in the first book. It was when she became an invincible abolitionist that I lost interest. I think the tipping point for me was when that city idiotically gave her their entire army in exchange for a dragon they couldn't control. What I liked about AGoTs was that pretty much all the characters were believable; cities of thoroughly wicked and incredibly stupid slavers didn't work for me.

[Lord Godric]

I don't think I exactly hate any of the characters (well "good" characters, people like Cersei I hate) but I think Dany is just terribly boring, and I struggle to get emotionally invested in her story. She is so removed from what I love about the story and I never fear that anything bad will happen to her. Nothing terrible has ever befallen Dany, personally. Others around her suffer, but she personally never seems to, and she can do no wrong. This is an opinion of Dany I have held since I started reading ASoIaF and during my rereads I have almost had to force myself to like Dany and care about her struggles because she will obviously be important in the future of the story.

[Lord Godric]

For those of you saying that Dany is a Mary Sue, how do you all feel about Jon? Jon's story mirrors Dany's, but I would argue that he got given things easier and had a less rough time.

Both were treated poorly at times, but Dany clearly had the harder upbringing.

Dany is sold to slavery, Jon is forced to join the Night's Watch. Dany is raped night after night, Jon is harassed and bullied.

They both lose someone they love, but Dany loses a child also.

Dany is given dragons by diving into a fire, Jon gets Longclaw by burning his hand.

Jon is forced to leave his brotherhood and kill a friend, just as Dany is forced to march through the Red Wastes and loses a friend due to her orders.

Dany is given an army by her scheming in Astapor, Jon is given an army by Sam's scheming at the Wall.

Lots of things I left out, but if Dany is a Mary Sue, Jon is surely just as bad.

I don't think many people will disagree with you. Jon and Dany are often referred to as Gary Stu and Mary Sue around here.

[Mandurang]

Nope, you're not the only one who generally likes all the characters. I guess I've never read these books thinking about who I like or don't like. To me each and every character is a thread in this very, very rich tapestry. I look forward to all of them. I think they're all interesting in some way and they're all important otherwise George wouldn't have included them.

I agree completely with this. I like reading pretty much everyone's chapters, even Cersei's (I may not like the fictitious person, but I sure as hell enjoy reading her chapters!), and I think the labels that are thrown about, such as Mary Sue, are rather hasty. There is plenty of moral ambiguity to go around, and three more books.

[Faint]

Nothing terrible has ever befallen Dany, personally.

Where does the murder of her mother, father, brothers, nephew, niece, son, and husband fit into all this?

Unless you're only talking about what's happened to her actual body -- which is a rather peculiar way of looking at things. And even there, you can make a pretty good case she was raped by her husband since I hardly find her marriage to be consensual in any sense of that word.

[Sidonie]

Where does the murder of her mother, father, brothers, nephew, niece, son, and husband fit into all this?

And don't forget, she also spent her childhood moving from one Free City to the next, basically begging with Viserys, who was abusive to her. I'd say that's pretty terrible for a child to go through, as well.

[Lord Godric]

Where does the murder of her mother, father, brothers, nephew, niece, son, and husband fit into all this?

Yeah, everyone around Dany suffers but she comes out of everything unscathed, or with minimal psychological damage, I mean c'mon how many of those deaths does she actually mourn? Mother? Father? Nephew? Neice? Rhaegar? No. Viserys? Hardly. Drogo and Rhaego are the only two, and even then she was hardly suffering. Actually she comes out of the situation better than she was before, she got her dragons. Everything gets handed to her because of luck or "feelings". Dany had a feeling about walking into Drogo's funeral pyre with her dragon eggs, and poof! magically it worked and her dragons hatched. It makes for the most boring, predictable character in the series.

Unless you're only talking about what's happened to her actual body -- which is a rather peculiar way of looking at things. And even there, you can make a pretty good case she was raped by her husband since I hardly find her marriage to be consensual in any sense of that word.

Yes, using a modern definition of the word.

[Faint]

Call me peculiar, but I'd not be jumping to trade places with her. Being born into a world where almost your entire family is either dead or murdered and you only have an abusive brother to rely on, all the while running away from assassins sent by the people who killed your missing family.

[Talleyrand]

If people keep saying Jon and Dany are Gary stu and Mary Sue then surely Tywin is a villian sue. I mean Renly, his biggest threat just happens to be killed by soemone else. Edmure ruins Robb's plan potentially saving Tywin. Mace Tyrell and 60,000 men just happen to be in his path to KL and are willing to join him. Balon decides to go for the North rather than the better pickings in the Westerlands. And to top it off the man in charge of the majority of Robb's foot just decides to switch sides and sacrifice a large portion of his allies' men.

[iamthedave]

Yeah, everyone around Dany suffers but she comes out of everything unscathed, or with minimal psychological damage, I mean c'mon how many of those deaths does she actually mourn? Mother? Father? Nephew? Neice? Rhaegar? No. Viserys? Hardly. Drogo and Rhaego are the only two, and even then she was hardly suffering. Actually she comes out of the situation better than she was before, she got her dragons. Everything gets handed to her because of luck or "feelings". Dany had a feeling about walking into Drogo's funeral pyre with her dragon eggs, and poof! magically it worked and her dragons hatched. It makes for the most boring, predictable character in the series.

THIS

You can list the things that have happened to her, but that's exactly what it is. A list. Dany is affected very little by most of the 'bad' things that have happened to her.

She was 'raped' by Drogo? Raped so devastatingly badly that she loves him so much he's one of the only deaths she mourns, and in fact she mounted HIM eventually. I can't think of many women who've been raped (inside the series) who would claim to love their raper and especially ones who'd mourn said person's death...

[Elrick]

Where does the murder of her mother, father, brothers, nephew, niece, son, and husband fit into all this?

Problem is that she can't remember any of them so she never had to suffer personal grief. Her husband was a piece of garbage in my opinion, a rapist and ruthless not to mention cruel.

[Whatever]

If people keep saying Jon and Dany are Gary stu and Mary Sue then surely Tywin is a villian sue. I mean Renly, his biggest threat just happens to be killed by soemone else. Edmure ruins Robb's plan potentially saving Tywin. Mace Tyrell and 60,000 men just happen to be in his path to KL and are willing to join him. Balon decides to go for the North rather than the better pickings in the Westerlands. And to top it off the man in charge of the majority of Robb's foot just decides to switch sides and sacrifice a large portion of his allies' men.

This is just brilliant :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[SummerKnight]

haters gotta hate...

villain-sue!!! LOL good one!

j'qhen hqar is an assassin-sue!!!! he always gets out of trouble and everything seems to fall into place for him, too! What a boring character!

Arya is totally a tom-boy-turned-assassin sue too, she always comes out ahead in everything, i mean, come on!, she gets to be an assassin and kill people and nothing bad ever happens to her either! she's totally living the dream. what a weak character.

and cersei, what a psycho-bitch sue. nuff said.

then theres jamie, what a badass sue. i mean really, nobody can beat him unless he's been in chains for a year or he's only got 1 hand, pathetic stuff..

and tyrion is a dwarf sue. i mean, hes a dwarf? get real...

and what about that comet? what a stupid comet-sue, all fallin through the cosmos toward the sun then whipping around and doin it all again, how B-O-R-I-N-G!!!

and whats with the tyrells? total royalty-sue's. i mean, everything goes there way, everything. No matter who gets murdered by shadow assassins, the tyrells are just way too... typical. yawn.

and the hound! jeez, what a emo-hardass sue he is. ooooo, i'm a clegane! i hate my brother! oooo look at my horrible face! oooo i want to fvck a 13 year old girl. whatev, get some character, will ya? jeez...

really, the whole series is a fantasy-series-sue, if you ask me. totally boring, w/ boring characters that nothing bad ever happens to, and if it does, they always come out on top. F that!

i want a book where everybody rapes everybody and everybody dies, and nobody ever wins cuz everybody is always a-dying and getting raped.

[inkasrain]

I think a big part of what makes Dany frustrating as a character (for me, at least) is that she requires a forcible divide between what we as readers want from her on an emotional level, and how we logically must understand her perceptions of the world. My blood practically boils every time Dany refers to Ned as one the "Usurper's dogs"; emotionally, I hate that she thinks of Ned and all of the Starks in that way, and I can't stand how blind she is to massively intricate political situation in Westeros.

At the same time, on an intellectual level, there is no way I can blame Dany for the way she views the world. She has no idea that Ned Stark is anything but the vile traitor everyone has always told her he is, no way of knowing that her father was a seriously bad king and a psychopath to boot, and no clue that Robert's rebellion, while illegal, was hardly born in a vacuum of power-lust. All of the assumptions Dany makes in this regard are logical, and I can't blame her for them, as much as part of me wants to.

So as a character, Dany is basically stuck in the uncomfortable halfway-place between innocence and responsibility--made harder to bear by the fact that she intends to act on her ignorance. It's a tough place for a character to be, and for me it explains a lot of why Dany 'gets under the skin' of many readers.

As far as Mary-Sueism goes, I can see the argument insofar as it's true that Dany does have a remarkable ability to beat reality into submission to her will-- not always, of course, but a good deal of the time. ("I will cross the Red Waste." "I will get what I want from the Undying." "I will conquer Astapor, Mereen and Yunkai with barely a drop of my forces' blood spilled.") Still, her story is obviously still in its formative stages, and since she isn't exactly sailing free and clear to the Iron Throne, I think the Sue tar-brush can stay in it's bucket for now.

[Mandurang]

I think a big part of what makes Dany frustrating as a character (for me, at least) is that she requires a forcible divide between what we as readers want from her on an emotional level, and how we logically must understand her perceptions of the world. My blood practically boils every time Dany refers to Ned as one the "Usurper's dogs"; emotionally, I hate that she thinks of Ned and all of the Starks in that way, and I can't stand how blind she is to massively intricate political situation in Westeros.

At the same time, on an intellectual level, there is no way I can blame Dany for the way she views the world. She has no idea that Ned Stark is anything but the vile traitor everyone has always told her he is, no way of knowing that her father was a seriously bad king and a psychopath to boot, and no clue that Robert's rebellion, while illegal, was hardly born in a vacuum of power-lust. All of the assumptions Dany makes in this regard are logical, and I can't blame her for them, as much as part of me wants to.

So as a character, Dany is basically stuck in the uncomfortable halfway-place between innocence and responsibility--made harder to bear by the fact that she intends to act on her ignorance. It's a tough place for a character to be, and for me it explains a lot of why Dany 'gets under the skin' of many readers.

That's interesting; I have examined that specific notion, and found it does not bother me at all. If there is only evidence for the Usurper and his allies being villainous - and her evidence is her reality - then she will keep believing it until evidence to the contrary presents itself. When it does, in the form of Barristan Selmy, she proves to be willing to listen. In that I do not find fault with the character at all, as I don't with other characters that act on their erroneous or inchoate perceptions, even though most of the times this differential between the reader's knowledge and the characters' knowledge is usually the source of tragedy and woe. If anything, I find it a narrative device that greatly enhances the quality of the read, much like dramatic and tragic irony in classical plays is an element that contributes to their greatness.

Therefore, and even though I never hated Daenerys, and enjoyed her chapters greatly, I think that this cannot be the reason people dislike her.

As far as Mary-Sueism goes, I can see the argument insofar as it's true that Dany does have a remarkable ability to beat reality into submission to her will-- not always, of course, but a good deal of the time. ("I will cross the Red Waste." "I will get what I want from the Undying." "I will conquer Astapor, Mereen and Yunkai with barely a drop of my forces' blood spilled.") Still, her story is obviously still in its formative stages, and since she isn't exactly sailing free and clear to the Iron Throne, I think the Sue tar-brush can stay in it's bucket for now.

Amen to that.

[Daemrion]

In any case, for those that do hate her, have fun reading ADwD -- you'll be skipping a third of the book at the very least.

Depends. If all the other POV's as they meet Dany's POV begin to fawn over her, then I'd be really worried. However, if they show a different perception that will probably make Dany more bearable as a character.

[Rakka]

With most other characters in the series their mistakes come back to bite their asses hard. Dany's only mistake that really costs her also gains her the dragons. After that it's caricaturish foreigners and enemies who are plot obliged to be stupid to let her win. The contrast is... not flattering and doesn't particularly endear the characters who get the easy pass.

Also, apart from that the problem is her decision to stay in fucking Mereen. Not only did that delay ADwD but it means she's just reacting. She should have kept moving and gone to Asshai, at least it would have been more interesting than to read her angst about people who she conquered not loving her.

[MightilyOats]

Good god, Dany was never raped.

Even the first time she had sex with Drogo, by the time he actually penetrated her she was all for it.

I have no idea why this board has such a fucked up "everything is rape, and rape is the most evil thing imaginable" mentality.