GRRM hopes not to "Pull a Lost"

[Dragonfish]

The unforgivable thing about Lost and its ending is that Lindelhof and Cuse flat out lied to the fans when they came too close to guessing the gimmick. Midway through season 2, fans said they have to be in purgatory. L and C (known as "Darlton" or TPTB) told the fans in podcasts that this was not true. But it was true!

1. Nobody survives a plane crash like that.

2. They all experienced ireminders from the past in a very dream-like and hallucinatory manner.

3. As soon as a character resolved their problems, they died/disappeared from the island.

We had it nailed in season 2. But they lied to us.

I don't know if they lied, their only quote regarding purgatory that I recall has them saying, "the island isn't purgatory," which is technically true: everything that happened on the island was real. It's just the sideways world in the final season that was purgatory.

[Kalbear]

The irony here is that I think Damon and Carlton showrunning a Game of Thrones TV show on HBO would probably be as amazing as TV gets.

This idea chills me to the bone. Ugh. Every episode ending with a treacley montage of people embracing in slow motion? Characters randomly deciding to do things because it fits the plot that week? No one talking to each other, and character development told entirely in flashbacks?

Fuck.That.Shit.

Some of their characters were decent. None were exemplary, and the arcs that the show producers took them through - specifically Locke - were decided quite often by the actors themselves. Locke went from shaman to whiny bitch to pseudoshaman to daddy issues - and the main reason he went back to being at all useful was because the actor complained publicly. Hell, every single male character had daddy issues. Dads were a plague upon the land. Their complex arc for Michael was to have him want to commit suicide and abandon his son - and then succeed! Their complicated arc for the second group of castaways had them all die within a season of them coming around due to their spectacular badness; the next two people they invited in they had to kill mid-season because of fan backlash. And their way of creating viewer sadness was always: kill the pretty women.

[End of Disc One]

Locke went from shaman to whiny bitch to pseudoshaman to daddy issues - and the main reason he went back to being at all useful was because the actor complained publicly.

This is completely false.

[Kalbear]

This is completely false.

No, it isn't. End of S2 Terry O'Quinn lamented that Locke seemed to have lost his way from a guy who was super confident and a man of faith to a guy who let everyone push him around; one of the reasons that S3 jumped immediately to his 'vision quest' was because of this feedback.

Hell, until about a month before it happened O'Quinn didn't know that Locke was not Locke and just was winging it as far as what he was supposed to act like. He was disappointed in finding out because he felt that finally Locke had found the answers he was really seeking, somehow, and when it turned out he was dead...that was disappointing.

There were a lot of public recriminations by actors - O'Quinn was the big critic, but Michael, Jin, and pretty much every tail-section guy had issues with the way things worked. They did change things around, and they did let the actors have quite a bit of leeway in how things worked. Hell, Ben Linus was supposed to be a minor Other until they saw how awesome he was.

The notion that they made these characters is kinda stupid. Their best strength is that they let the characters evolve into something more than what they presented them as. Jack was supposed to die midway through the first season, for instance. Do you think they had planned his arc as the savior of the island? That wasn't the initial plan.

[Carldog]

Who gives a shit about Lost? That show sucked.

The real question is will GRRM fuck up. If the next two books are like AFFC and a soild seventh book wraps things up I would call that a bad ending, because Feast is not that great (good but not great). I would like to see the quality of the first three books throughout. Or he could go for the LotR ending which is all flowers and sunshine...the easy way.

I think he'll bring it all together in a way that will piss off some people and please others with most people finding a level of satisfaction.

[End of Disc One]

No, it isn't. End of S2 Terry O'Quinn lamented that Locke seemed to have lost his way from a guy who was super confident and a man of faith to a guy who let everyone push him around; one of the reasons that S3 jumped immediately to his 'vision quest' was because of this feedback.

Hell, until about a month before it happened O'Quinn didn't know that Locke was not Locke and just was winging it as far as what he was supposed to act like. He was disappointed in finding out because he felt that finally Locke had found the answers he was really seeking, somehow, and when it turned out he was dead...that was disappointing.

There were a lot of public recriminations by actors - O'Quinn was the big critic, but Michael, Jin, and pretty much every tail-section guy had issues with the way things worked. They did change things around, and they did let the actors have quite a bit of leeway in how things worked. Hell, Ben Linus was supposed to be a minor Other until they saw how awesome he was.

The notion that they made these characters is kinda stupid. Their best strength is that they let the characters evolve into something more than what they presented them as. Jack was supposed to die midway through the first season, for instance. Do you think they had planned his arc as the savior of the island? That wasn't the initial plan.

O'Quinn was disappointed back in season 2 but I'm pretty sure that didn't change his character arc. And I'm positive that by the end he was only saying positive things--he said he felt bad for Locke but it was no disappointment. He said he loved his new role. Daniel Dae Kim wasn't a critic either, but Naveen Andrews was during season 3 and Harold Perrineau made some comments after his character arc ended. Dominic Monaghan was disappointed at one point but didn't state it publicy. I think you're overragerating the actors being displeased about the story.

[Padraig]

I think that when GRRM says he doesn't want to pull a Lost is that he wants to make sure that if he raises questions or mysteries, the answers are reasonable, follow nicely from the text, and are thought about ahead of time. Jon's parentage, the prophecies, Dany's birthright, the Others and how to stop them - all of these things are Big Questions, and deserve good answers.

And while I have zero doubt that he knows the real, honest to goodness answers to these questions, how he delivers them could be Lost-like if it's just abrupt and doesn't follow from what he's written. It's not just about the answers - it's about making sure that they fit well within the context of the story and what has come before. Lost did a really horrible job of that sort of thing - either not knowing the answers and not bothering answering them, answering them boringly (How did a ship get to the center of the island? by wave. Why is there a 4-toed statue there? Someone built it), or actually ignoring prior mysteries so that they could move on.

I think this is one of the reasons that things are harder to write as we move forward - because GRRM is checking all these things as he moves along. His own worst enemy is his devotion to continuity.

This. He knows the ending but he still has to get to that ending in a reasonable and well thought out way. It has been difficult for a while.

At the same time, I do sympathise with Lindelof. Its not nice when a person you admire says you failed. GRRM might be right but Lindelof's reaction is still understandable. And the later interview with James Hibberd’s is very well put. As he said himself. He expects stones to be throne but for GRRM to do it, it seems like a boulder.

As for GRRM. I wonder how surprised he is to see his comments get so much attention. He hasn't been involved in mainstream Hollywood for almost 20 years. He is used to giving honest views on series because he didn't have a high profile. It will be interesting to see what he will decide to say in future. He has been around so long that he might think he has earned the right to say what he thinks.

His "feud" against Harry Potter reached ridiculous heights on his "not a blog". I hope his outbursts don't damage the GoT TV series.

I wouldn't take the Harry Potter thing very seriously. Its more an in-joke because it bet aSoS for the Hugo in 2001. Although he doesn't approve of Rowling snubbing the genre.

His outbursts will not do any damage anyhow. Saying he doesn't like Lost isn't that controversial. And the series depends more on D&D than GRRM now anyhow. :)

As for Lost. I liked the show. A lot of episodes were excellent.

[Werthead]

The notion that they made these characters is kinda stupid. Their best strength is that they let the characters evolve into something more than what they presented them as. Jack was supposed to die midway through the first season, for instance. Do you think they had planned his arc as the savior of the island? That wasn't the initial plan.

Jack was supposed to die halfway through the pilot. In fact, he was supposed to have been killed at the point the dude from Heroes bought it ;) ABC thought they were nuts and stopped that from happening.

There was a writer as well who was on the first half of Season 1 who quit in a furious protest because they didn't have a solid story arc, outline or plan in place. It wasn't until late Season 3 that they had an arc of sorts in place, which is why some elements from S1-S2 they introduced on the fly for the hell of it were quietly ignored.

In fairness, at least Lost did have a plan, if not until the second half of the show. This is much, much more than can be said for BSG.

[Inglorious Pencil]

Jack was supposed to die halfway through the pilot. In fact, he was supposed to have been killed at the point the dude from Heroes bought it ;) ABC thought they were nuts and stopped that from happening.

This is one of the reasons I think we're kind of comparing apples and oranges here - Lost was on network television, was written by a large team of people, had its seasons going on air while episodes were still being filmed therefore making ratings and audience feedback a direct influence on the storytelling (see Nikki and Paulo), suffered from the writers' strike right in the middle of season four... ASoIaF is a series of novels written by a single author who can take his time *cough* to ponder and craft every detail, and deliver only when he thinks he's ready, with no limitations dictated by advertising spaces or meddling executives (or at least, not in the capacity it seems to happen on network television). It doesn't really compare, imho.

Heh. And I just defended GRRM and ASoIaF in a Lost forum :fencing: I guess I can't resist a - wait for it - LOST cause! :leer:

The stuff I loved about LOST, the stuff that intrigued and interested and amused me, in the end weighed more than the stuff I hated (and boy, did I hate some things and people). I liked the ending at an emotional level, although my favourite character wasn't there (I hated this!). I didn't understand much at a logical level, and this made for days of interesting discussion with my friends. So, from my point of view, LOST delivered.

My thoughts exactly.

[Trebla]

On CNN.com, the EW GRRM vs Lost throwdown is one of the top Entertainment stories. wow.

GRRM has always been pretty open on what works he's liked and didn't like (looking at you David Eddings) but i agree he might be pretty surprised at how much this has blow up.

[Bronn is God]

Could this mean the ending is essentially a straightforward, bleak one i.e. Others take Westeros?

Maybe Martin wants it to end this way, but doesn't want fans to feel he is a hack and took an easy way out.

As someone else said, answering questions is more important than the actual ending.

[Axon]

Could this mean the ending is essentially a straightforward, bleak one i.e. Others take Westeros?

Maybe Martin wants it to end this way, but doesn't want fans to feel he is a hack and took an easy way out.

As someone else said, answering questions is more important than the actual ending.

It's funny, because really, the ultimate nemesis of the Others seems to be summertime. Though I suppose they may have some device to be rid of such an inconvenience. :P Nah, I don't think he has an ending that bleak in mind. Most likely it will be some sort of pyrrhic victory.

[Josiah Rowe]

The unforgivable thing about Lost and its ending is that Lindelhof and Cuse flat out lied to the fans when they came too close to guessing the gimmick. Midway through season 2, fans said they have to be in purgatory. L and C (known as "Darlton" or TPTB) told the fans in podcasts that this was not true. But it was true!

1. Nobody survives a plane crash like that.

2. They all experienced ireminders from the past in a very dream-like and hallucinatory manner.

3. As soon as a character resolved their problems, they died/disappeared from the island.

We had it nailed in season 2. But they lied to us.

Except that the Island wasn't purgatory in any sense, and the characters didn't die in the plane crash. It was part of the same "real world" that the characters left when the plane took off from Australia. Only the flash-sideways world seen in Season 6 was a different reality, and even calling that "purgatory" is an over-simplification; it was just as much like a different level of reality from Buddhist cosmology as anything Christian.

Now, thematically it's true that the characters had to work through their issues before being able to "let go", in whichever reality; but that's just a parable about the nature of dukkha and the cycle of samsara.

[Axon]

Except that the Island wasn't purgatory in any sense, and the characters didn't die in the plane crash. It was part of the same "real world" that the characters left when the plane took off from Australia. Only the flash-sideways world seen in Season 6 was a different reality, and even calling that "purgatory" is an over-simplification; it was just as much like a different level of reality from Buddhist cosmology as anything Christian.

Now, thematically it's true that the characters had to work through their issues before being able to "let go", in whichever reality; but that's just a parable about the nature of dukkha and the cycle of samsara.

I felt like the idea was a hodge podge of a few different concepts. But ultimately, it still felt like purgatory to me.

[Josiah Rowe]

I felt like the idea was a hodge podge of a few different concepts. But ultimately, it still felt like purgatory to me.

Fair enough — as long as you're talking about the "flash-sideways", and not the Island itself. Because the notion that everyone on the Island was dead is simply wrong.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've never watched an episode of Lost, but from what I've gathered from some fans, the way it ended made it clear that the writers were making up things as they went along and couldn't answer the questions and mysteries they raised throughout the duration of the show. This is how I felt about the ending of Battlestar Galactica, which really affected my view of the earlier seasons, which I greatly enjoyed at the time.

With ASOIAF, I don't think GRRM can pull a "Lost" or a "Battlestar Galactica" in a way that would diminish my enjoyment of the books so far. This is because ASOIAF isn't based on a giant mystery that fuels fan speculation and need for answering; it has its share of mysteries and prophecies, but nothing that the entire show is founded upon. From what I've gathered of "Lost" and my experience with BSG, it is the mystery and plot twists that kept fans tuning in every week. Once I found out the half-assed and seemingly made up on the fly explanations for BSG, I couldn't re-watch any earlier episodes without thinking that it was all bullshit. WIth ASOIAF, these elements are very important but to me the arc of the characters is of more importance and even unless GRRM turns Jon Snow into an angel sent from God or it turns out it was all a dream, I don't think any ending to the series will affect my enjoyment of the books in the same way that the ending of BSG ruined the rest of the show.

[evanesco75]

I was a huge LOST fan. I mean obssessive. I posted on The Fuselage (daily), I discussed mysteries and theories, I laughed and gasped and cried and yelled... the whole nine yards, really.

And I still love it. I know it wasn't perfect, there were holes and flaws, the writers did, in fact, pull some stuff out of their arses, left some crucial points hanging.... and I still love it. Primarily because it was so damned ambitious in its story telling: so many characters, so much backstory, so many layers. It felt new and exciting.

They tried doing too much, absolutely. They dug themselves into a hole toward the end and I can easily confess to being a bit disappointed with S6. After so much build-up and such expectations, they couldn't end it well enough. And while I quite liked the ending, it's obvious why many didn't.

But I'll never regret watching it, or being part of the fandom. The acting, the directing, the mistakes and failures and flaws of the characters, the music (Michael Giacchino is a genius) and the location itself... it all conspired to make for a unique television experience for me.

In fact (shameless pimping alert!) I tried to make sense of the ending myself. If anyone's interested, here's the link: http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=127469

As for the feud, I found it amusing. I admire Lindelof because he invested so much in LOST and I for one enjoyed it so much. And nothing needs to be said re GRRM. He's the man.

I don't think he'll 'pull a LOST' at all, either. I do see how he's expanded his canvas, but I think he can pull it all back together just fine. Maybe I'm optimistic :)

[Blackfish Blues]

Some would say that when you have an audience would be the best time to make your opinions heard.

I agree. But I'm perplexed because these people all work or have worked in the same field, scriptwriting. They stand together when their rights are threatened (see writers' strikes). I would expect a certain loyalty, some esprit de corps. I would even understand it more if active scriptwriters zinged at each other for the sake of their respective shows.

Instead here we have a former scriptwriter who made it big as a writer (I wonder if this is not the frustrating dream of most scriptwriters - just a feeling, probably my frustrated writer's projection) and, from the outside, casually and high-handedly bashes some former colleagues' work, with which he was not even involved.

NOTE: I'm not a GRRM basher. I'm ready to defend him any time on the "lateness" issue - I've done it recently on the generation-defining thread. But there are facets of his outward persona (not having met him personally, I rely on what he chooses to reveal of himself publicly) I feel distasteful and even damaging for his interest. His tendency to be blunt, while in itself not negative at all (uhhh, my fave ASOIAF character is the champion of bluntness), sometimes strikes me as... petty, unnecessary. Sorry, these are the words that came to my mind when I read of the controversy.

Having the audience and the influence that he has, GRRM is already doing the best thing he could ever do to improve the general state of television: helping create the most wonderful and incredible TV series that ever existed, from one of the most wonderful and incredible fantasy sagas we have been privileged to read. Casually diminishing another's work... in what way does it help the quality of TV? An informed review would have been more helpful. Maybe he even wrote it, I don't remember now. That, too, would reach his audience in a more constructive way than a supposedly witty quip.

By the way, isn't he the one who is (rightfully) offended when people beg him not to "pull a Jordan"? Shouldn't he be (rightfully) upset when other tardy writers are accused of "pulling a Martin"?

PS: doomsday, I've bookmarked your END thread, I'll read it later when I don't have to go out, because it's already making me sniffle from the first lines. :D

[evanesco75]

Blackfish, you make interesting points. For a moment I felt this may even have been a clever PR stunt: certainly this 1 remark from GRRM got more attention (especially from non ASOIAF fans) than other interviews. Though I question the wisdom of perhaps turning off the particularly rabid LOST contingent (I freely admit that had I not read and loved this series, I'd've been quite annoyed at the remark as a genuine LOST fan myself!). Still, I doubt anyone would not watch GoT due to a casual remark!

As for your stance re: writers supporting each other, I agree completely.

And do read my entry if you have the time and inclination; would love to know your views! :)

[Ran]

George is not that saavy, I'm afraid. In point of fact, I know that he had only the vaguest notion that anyone had even noticed his remarks and tooken umbrage at them.

With Poniewozik's interview, Poniewozik is the one who brought it up (because he's often made comparisons between the show and the series). It may well be that the New Yorker's interview brought Lost to mind in her discussions with George, as well.