[TV SPOILERS] Game of Thrones World Premiere

[Tywin's bastard]

By accepting to marry Drogo she's consenting to sleeping with him because that's what you do after the wedding. We're repeatedly seeing that she doesn't want to marry Drogo in the book and that she's afraid for him. This change won't do much at all to change either character in the end, it just bends the arc of personal development a bit more, unless there's more things changed later in the season.

As for 'rape', that's generally a term that's defined by the laws in the place where you are. It's not very fruitful to throw modern western world law on that scene. This series will be at least as liberal with killing (probably more so) compared to our current world.

[Tywin's bastard]

She has reason to fear Viserys, and what he would do to her if the marriage failed, but Drogo never gives her any sign that he will abuse her.

No reason to fear Viserys? She's terrified of his anger and he's clearly short tempered enough to do some really bad things to her if she sets back his plans to regain his crown. She's afraid of Drogo as well and don't know what he is like. You're looking at this way too dryly with eyes disconnected from Dany.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

By accepting to marry Drogo she's consenting to sleeping with him because that's what you do after the wedding. We're repeatedly seeing that she doesn't want to marry Drogo in the book and that she's afraid for him. This change won't do much at all to change either character in the end, it just bends the arc of personal development a bit more, unless there's more things changed later in the season.

As for 'rape', that's generally a term that's defined by the laws in the place where you are. It's not very fruitful to throw modern western world law on that scene. This series will be at least as liberal with killing (probably more so) compared to our current world.

I agree that the definition of rape becomes muddied in a different society, but that doesn't stop me finding the whole situation fucking weird/disturbing.

I'm watching the premier with some family and friends, and this is basically the single scene I'm really nervous about.

[denstorebog]

As for 'rape', that's generally a term that's defined by the laws in the place where you are. It's not very fruitful to throw modern western world law on that scene.

As a reading of the preceding posts will show, it's not about western standards. Anyone's welcome to write about rape in different social contexts for all I care. It's that the author is presenting this as a romantic, tender scene which forms the basis for a relationship based on love later on.

[babyraven]

As a reading of the preceding posts will show, it's not about western standards. Anyone's welcome to write about rape in different social contexts for all I care. It's that the author is presenting this as a romantic, tender scene which forms the basis for a relationship based on love later on.

No replies for my post, denstore?

[Jack Sparrow]

He's a grunting, guttural, ruthless warlord who has never been defeated in battle. To a 13 year old kid thats going to hint something.

Fuck, the entire society of the Dothraki is basically based around rape. You have to be blind if you think Dany wasn't slightly intimidated. The whole thing was brutal, and her subsequent 'love' never rang true to me.

I never said that Dany wasn't afraid of Drogo (I actually try to phrase my posts to say what I mean, specifically); she definitely seemed afraid. Drogo never does anything that I recall to communicate to Dany that he will hurt her if she does not have sex with him. Others have recounted how the scene played out: Daenarys initially says, "no." Then, a little later, she says, "yes." Drogo did not threaten her in any way to change her mind. She, instead, seemed surprised that he wasn't going to hurt her. If she changed her receptiveness because she thought Drogo would beat her, we are not given any sign of this in the text (that I recall).

[denstorebog]

No replies for my post, denstore?

I'm not sure people are discussing the exact same thing in this thread, so I'm sorta trying to process where the discussion is going and whether it's still talking about my original point, which was the really awkward difference between the vibe that some people, including myself, get from what objectively takes place in the scene, and how it's portrayed / what it leads to. For example, you write:

But I am not sure how you could by any stretch call that passage rape.

then later:

Sex trafficking, yes. Statutory rape, probably, if laws like that existed in I&F, which they don't.

If the discussion is down to whether or not Dany is specifically the victim of rape, statutory rape or trafficking, it's pretty moot to me, because it's all the same in terms of why I find the scene awkward as something which:

1. turns Dany on

2. acts as a starting point for her falling in love with Drogo

In other terms, I'm not really interested in whether Drogo specifically commits statutory rape, actual rape or is a multifaceted merchant in the Westerosi sex trade industry. I'll personally label it rape, but if others disagree, sure - that's pretty minor detail in the larger picture. This, to me, is purely about what Dany should feel, according to common sense, versus what we're told that she does feel - and whether the author presents something implausible because he doesn't properly put himself in the rape/trafficking victim's position (a phenomenon which you, as a feminist fantasy reader, have probably encountered before). I'm arguing that the chain of events that Dany undergoes up until this scene could never realistically lead to a harmonic, consensual romantic involvement with Drogo, and that GRRM provides no hint that their subsequent romantic relationship is anything but deep-felt and healthy (random heart-eating rituals aside).

If this was something that actually happened, there's no way we would ever root for the victim to do what Dany does, which is fall in love with her rapist/buyer/whatever. Hence the portrayal of Dany is completely implausible and awkward to me, and not very sympathetic. I could accept it if GRRM dropped some hints that her love for Drogo was born out of some decidedly wrong and Stockholm-like syndrome - but I'm not reading anything like that from the book.

Again, this should be seen in the perspective that the author in general manages to write one of the most horrible portrayals of a fictional world I've seen, and still manages to do this without coming off as being unsympathetic himself.

[Tywin's bastard]

I agree that the definition of rape becomes muddied in a different society, but that doesn't stop me finding the whole situation fucking weird/disturbing.

I'm watching the premier with some family and friends, and this is basically the single scene I'm really nervous about.

I'm not saying that you can't find it weird and disturbing. On the contrary, I'm quite sure the scene is meant to be disturbing to the viewers in order to really make them feel how difficult her situation is. It's definitely not something for everyone but in my opinion good art makes you react to both good and bad things.

[Xenophon]

I'm not saying that you can't find it weird and disturbing. On the contrary, I'm quite sure the scene is meant to be disturbing to the viewers in order to really make them feel how difficult her situation is. It's definitely not something for everyone but in my opinion good art makes you react to both good and bad things.

Yes, they definitely seem to be playing up the disturbing side of it. I wonder if that's partly because by aging Dany up, the scene wouldn't have the same impact as in the book. Drogo sleeping with a 13-year-old child is viscerally creepy, no matter how much she said yes. But just seeing Drogo sleeping with a 20-something-year old actress playing 16-18(?)-year-old character doesn't have the same punch. So perhaps they felt it was necessary to cut out his asking for her consent, in order to make it obvious to the viewers that this is clearly rape according to our modern standards.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I'm not saying that you can't find it weird and disturbing. On the contrary, I'm quite sure the scene is meant to be disturbing to the viewers in order to really make them feel how difficult her situation is. It's definitely not something for everyone but in my opinion good art makes you react to both good and bad things.

Yes indeed. Which is why I just don't understand those who felt Dany/Drogo was 'romantic' in the first place.

[Godlikebuthumble]

Yes, they definitely seem to be playing up the disturbing side of it. I wonder if that's partly because by aging Dany up, the scene wouldn't have the same impact as in the book. Drogo sleeping with a 13-year-old child is viscerally creepy, no matter how much she said yes. But just seeing Drogo sleeping with a 20-something-year old actress playing 16-18(?)-year-old character doesn't have the same punch. So perhaps they felt it was necessary to cut out his asking for her consent, in order to make it obvious to the viewers that this is clearly rape according to our modern standards.

Then again, the same could be said of pretty much every arranged marriage among the nobles of Westeros we've read about so far. When you think about it, in Westeros, "wedding and bedding" ... go together like a horse and carriage. Nevermind whether the girl/woman likes or even knows the man she's, in effect, being sold to. The Tully sisters, Cersei (and Tywin scouting for potential husbands after Robert's death), Roslyn Frey, Sansa... the only relevant exceptions I can think of would be Jeyne Westerling and (possibly) Margaery. I find it interesting to see how (radically) different the girls/women in question handle that lot. One of the strengths in Martin's writing, IMHO. Also, dunno if it's just me, but Martin's explicit and prominent mention of Dany' age at the end to me seems a reminder that what happens here is indeed skeevy as hell, no matter what the (unreliable, remember) POV seems to think about it being in any way romantic or so.

Same with any kind of arranged noble/royal marriages in our world in, say, the Middle Ages. The relevance of age in terms of "statutory rape" is subject to changes in perception, and consent doesn't really come into it, it's just a reality of the setting/history.

My €0,02

[Spring Bass]

Just finished it, and it was pretty damn awesome.

1. I don't think the executed Night Watch guy should have spoken anything. It would have been better just to show him terrified.

2. The actress playing Daenerys is really beautiful, especially while naked (the bath scene).

3. I think the Lannisters (particularly Tyrion and Jaime) stole the show, particularly considering how reserved Ned was.

[A Redeemed Hound]

Overall I think they did a great job. The Lannisters stole the show for sure. Tyrion is perfect. So are Jaime and Cersei actually. I also really enjoyed Arya's minor scenes. She will be perfect too.

It felt rushed but that is going to happen for an episode or two until the story gets into it's groove.

My only complaint was the first scenes with the Night's Watch. Why did they make the Other look like a predator-type monster? I was not a fan of that. But that is it.

Also, Dany and Viserys were perfect too.

[Gizmonster]

I have to say, I liked it...visually stunning, amazing job all around. Minor changes from the books, it is to be expected, and I don't think there were any unnecessary changes. Here however is what worries me.

No POV! This is a big one for me.

Part of what I know about the characters, comes from their insight. My glimpse into their heads. I KNOW what the POV characters are thinking...I know WHY they do what they do. The one's that aren't POV are mysteries. Both of those elements I would like to keep even in the series. If we are to judge the characters solely on their actions, and not on their thoughts I would have completely different opinions of the characters than I do now. I sincerely hope they find a way to portray that in the series...it would be a shame to loose that part of the story.

[turinturambar]

You could at least bother to read the three preceding posts or something. Not sure why I'm bothering with this, but alright, once more for the slow dude:

1. Dany is 13 years old.

2. She is sold off to a barbarian tribe by her brother.

3. She enters into a forced marriage to a huge barbarian.

4. She attends a violent arena fight during which women are violent raped according to the standards of the tribe she's now part of.

5. She's taken away to a remote location by her physically superior husband and forcefully undressed despite repeatedly saying no.

6. After all of which, she finally says yes.

You can argue that it isn't rape from a completely literal and cynical viewpoint, in which case it becomes "it's okay to coerce an underage girl through force, violence and abduction as long as she sees the light in the end, in which case it's all good". Not sure if that's how things work where you come from, but as long as we're debating modern concepts like consent, there's no way Drogo should not be considered a rapist.

I think the mistake you're making here is that you're portraying modern society norms upon a medieval type of culture.

In the past, 13 years old was not an uncommon age to get married, you were capable of breeding and were considered an adult. Marriages were often formed for political reasons or reasons of support/wealth. That does not mean that women in such situations, which were not uncommon at the time, did not perhaps have fantasies or desires. And while they likely had a lot of fear when thrown into such a situation, it is not unheard of that she may have desire despite her fears. She's probably had a lot of time to think about it. And when the time came and she was expecting to just do her "duty", she found the "hulking barbarian" to be rather tender and considerate of her feelings rather than just simply taking her like he's expected to do. That probably made the moment easier for her to bear and at the same time she found that she respected him. It's not unheard of that a strong love could eventually develop out of that situation. Historically I'm sure many couples who married for political reasons eventually came to love each other through time, though I doubt their wedding night was always an enjoyable one.

[babyraven]

1. I don't think the executed Night Watch guy should have spoken anything. It would have been better just to show him terrified.

Here's why I think they did it, and it makes sense -- as readers of the book, it's easy for us to know that the Others are not a new phenomenon but something that has existed in legend and history of Westeros. By him saying "I saw the White Walkers," it's an easy way to show this through dialog what George can show us through POV and literary exposition, things they don't really have available in visual storytelling.

[Ice-wolf]

I agree with Woodbyrne that the episode felt rushed, it was difficult to keep up with at times, but I guess they had so many characters to introduce that it was kind of necessary. I think the pace will definitely slow down in the next few episodes.

As for all this talk about whether or not Dany was the victim of rape, I think it's irrelevant because you're talking about the cultural traditions of a society that don't exist, and therefore the laws and norms of this world, from any time period, do not come into play. The Dothraki culture clearly condoned this kind of behaviour, they didn't see it as out of the ordinary or criminal behaviour, it was simply part of their marriage tradition. I don't think it's possible for us to pass judgement a culture which doesn't exist, as it has nothing to do with what we might see as morally right or wrong in the real world, the same rules just don't apply. The same applies to the whole sex trafficking thing; Drogo didn't marry Dany primarily for sex, that is just part of the what was expected of her when she married him, which ties back into my whole arguement about the Dothraki's cultural traditions, therefore the marriage can't be seen as sex trafficking, merely an arranged marriage, which isn't that bad in the context.

And as for their ensuing relationship, I don't think Dany's love for Drogo was based on any emotional attachment, I think it has more to do with the confused feelings and desires of a adolescent girl, lets not forget she isn't a fully matured adult yet and therefore may be unsure of her own feelings yet. First of all it seems, in spite of Drogo's barbarism, Dany finds herself attracted to his power, his position and his physical prowess, in other words: she confuses lust for love (as is often the case with people of that age). Secondly, we must remember that, since Dany has been born, she has had noone to look after her other than her abusive, mentally unstable, older brother, therefore she craves stability, protection, which she finds in Drogo. She sees that Drogo is powerful, seemingly invincible, and she is drawn to this, she finally has a protector, someone to look after her, and therefore she begins to feel a sort of attachment (not love) to Drogo; this, coupled with her physical attraction towards Drogo cause her to feel smething for him, something which she misconstrues for love, and this is why I don't find it strange in the slightest that Dany forms such a relationship with Drogo after their first brutal physical encounter.

Just my opinion ;)