U.S. Politics 24

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Insisting on concessions to raise the debt ceiling is a bit like holding your mother hostage to extort money out of your brother.

No, it's nothing like that at all.

[TerraPrime]

But what that tells me is that people are going to be predisposed towards supporting significant cuts in spending.

I don't need a poll to tell me that a significant number of people support substantial cuts in spending. The bedeviling aspect is in what spending to cut, isn't it? Most people will support cutting funding to programs that they don't like, or programs that they do not benefit directly from, regardless of the efficacy or benefits of such programs. Saying that people will be predisposed towards cutting spending instead of raising taxes to fix budgetary woes is as informative as tell me that water is wet.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I don't need a poll to tell me that a significant number of people support substantial cuts in spending. The bedeviling aspect is in what spending to cut, isn't it? Most people will support cutting funding to programs that they don't like, or programs that they do not benefit directly from, regardless of the efficacy or benefits of such programs. Saying that people will be predisposed towards cutting spending instead of raising taxes to fix budgetary woes is as informative as tell me that water is wet.

But it's a matter of degree. People have always been in favor of spending being cut. And as you say, there is disagreement over the particulars. But I do think that sentiment supporting cuts is stronger that it has been in the past, and that the "let's just default" attitude is indicative of that. That may make it easier to get through cuts that previously were political suicide.

[Crazydog7]

This is exactly why I left the Republican party. It took a left turn into crazytown some time ago, and this birther idiocy (which is what's buoying Trump) is only the latest symptom.

The whole thing really doesn't surprise me I have people in my orbit that only watch Fox News, only listen to Rush and only talk to like minded people. I mean the Republicans are really going to have to work overtime to not win in 2012 because even if the principles that a large part of the base stands on are fundamentally insane at least its a percipient kind of insanity. I'm sure the Democrats will help them in whatever way possible.

Fuck it I'm just sick of having to chose between that guy I hate and the guy I mostly hate.

[Shryke]

But it's a matter of degree. People have always been in favor of spending being cut. And as you say, there is disagreement over the particulars. But I do think that sentiment supporting cuts is stronger that it has been in the past, and that the "let's just default" attitude is indicative of that. That may make it easier to get through cuts that previously were political suicide.

If it's stronger now, it must have been weaker then a paraplegic infant before because as of the last poll from a couple of months ago or so, like the only thing a majority of Americans supported cutting was foreign aid.

And the "don't raise the debt ceiling" is mostly indicative of people not understanding anything about the issue.

[TrackerNeil]

But it's a matter of degree. People have always been in favor of spending being cut. And as you say, there is disagreement over the particulars. But I do think that sentiment supporting cuts is stronger that it has been in the past, and that the "let's just default" attitude is indicative of that. That may make it easier to get through cuts that previously were political suicide.

People are in favor of cuts to services they don't need, sure, but try to cut something the like and...well, what does it tell you when even teabaggers were refusing cuts to Social Security?

And, as Shryke said, it's certainly easy to oppose raising the debt ceiling when you have no understanding what that would do to the economy.

This discussion reinforces my complete support for a taxpayer receipt. Perhaps if Americans knew that most of their federal taxes go to the programs they don't want to cut - defense and entitlement spending - they might develop a more mature attitude towards budgets.

[The Progressive]

I predict that Obama and the Democrats will have to cave on the demands that the Repubs will thrown at them because the teabaggers are insane enough to cause the US to go into default. The Democrats missed an opportunity last week when they opted to accept the demands by the GOP and now the Repubs are in an even stronger political position to bargain.

Maybe this will wake people up though when a host of necessary domestic/social programs were gutted. We'll see if they gonna like them apples or not.

[ljkeane]

Of course, it is possible that we believe the ACA itself will help accelerate the road to ruin by creating another medical entitlement program when our government can't afford the ones we already have.

Since the ruin that it's supposed to be leading to is the US defaulting on it's debt threatening to default doesn't seem like the most rational response.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

People are in favor of cuts to services they don't need, sure, but try to cut something the like and...well, what does it tell you when even teabaggers were refusing cuts to Social Security?

That's exactly why they're not tackling Social Security, at least not yet.

And, as Shryke said, it's certainly easy to oppose raising the debt ceiling when you have no understanding what that would do to the economy.

True enough. But that still helps the GOP play "chicken" to get concessions they want. And that's part of the point here. People were screaming that the GOP was going to shut down the government over funding for Planned Parenthood. But it didn't. A lot of what we see is negotiation, not true lines in the sand.

This discussion reinforces my complete support for a taxpayer receipt. Perhaps if Americans knew that most of their federal taxes go to the programs they don't want to cut - defense and entitlement spending - they might develop a more mature attitude towards budgets.

I'm fine with that. But in fairness to at least some in the GOP, they've been extremely upfront in saying that entitlements are the problem. Which is one reason why they don't support the creation of a new one.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Since the ruin that it's supposed to be leading to is the US defaulting on it's debt threatening to default doesn't seem like the most rational response.

Again, to some extent, it is a very high stakes game of poker. Will the GOP really refuse to lift the debt ceiling?

[lokisnow]

of course the Democrats are going to cave on whatever the Republicans want in order to raise the debt cieling. The question is, how long will it take, and how much volatility will that inject into the market. Meaning will the argument over the debt cieling cause a $1/gal rise in gas prices or a $2/gal (or more) rise in gas prices? Despite that fact that it will be Republican obstructionism causing the market volatility and causing the recovery to collapse during the upcoming argument, democrats will be blamed for it because democrats are too stupid to know how to explain anything of the truth to anyone while Republicans are wonderfully skilled at convincing everyone with easily comprehended, monstrously false lies.

[awesome possum]

Say something for GOP presidential hopefuls. Say they know their base:

Bachmann And Gingrich Will Address Anti-Gay Organization That’s "Proud To Be A Hate Group"

My favorite quote from one of the group's spokesneanderthal:

The MFC’s Barb Anderson told anti-gay activist Peter LaBarbera that “the greatest threat to our freedom and to the health and well-being of our children is from this radical homosexual agenda which is just so pervasive” and that she considers it “a badge of honor to be called a hate group.” Anderson also blamed supporters of gay rights for school bullying, saying that they “are the ones that are contributing to an atmosphere that can even increase bullying as more kids get into this kind of a lifestyle” and that “homosexual behavior is one of the most hazardous behaviors that kids could get into and start practicing.”

[awesome possum]

Progressive Democrats release their own budget plan

It's like apples and oranges compared to the Republicans plan. Or maybe more like "normal functioning member of society" and "insane asylum resident".

The plan claims it will create a budget surplus and reduce the deficit by $5.7 trillion by 2021:

Individual income tax policies

1. Extend marriage relief, credits, and incentives for children, families, and education, but

let the upper-income tax cuts expire and let tax brackets revert to Clinton-era rates

2. Index the AMT for inflation for a decade (AMT patch paid for)

3. Rescind the upper-income tax cuts in the tax deal

4. Schakowsky millionaire tax rates proposal (adding 45%, 46%, and 47% top rates)

5. Progressive estate tax (Sanders estate tax, repeal of Kyl-Lincoln)

6. Tax capital gains and qualified dividends as ordinary income

Corporate tax reform

1. Tax U.S. corporate foreign income as it is earned

2. Eliminate corporate welfare for oil, gas, and coal companies

3. Enact a financial crisis responsibility fee

4. Financial speculation tax (derivatives, foreign exchange)

Health care

1. Enact a public option

2. Negotiate Rx payments with pharmaceutical companies

3. CMS program integrity and other Medicare and Medicaid savings in the president’s

budget.

4. Prevent a cut in Medicare physician payments for a decade (maintain doc fix)

Social Security

1. Raise the taxable maximum on the employee side to 90% of earnings and eliminate the

taxable maximum on the employer side

2. Increase benefits based on higher contributions on the employee side

Defense savings

1. End overseas contingency operations emergency supplementals starting in 2013,

providing $170 billion in FY2012 funding for withdrawal

2. Reduce baseline Defense spending by reducing strategic capabilities, conventional

forces, procurement, and R&D programs

Job Creation

1. Invest $1.45 trillion in job creation, early childhood, K-12 and special education, quality

child care, energy and broadband infrastructure, housing, and R&D

2. Infrastructure bank

3. Surface transportation reauthorization bill

4. Finance surface transportation reauthorization

[Fez]

Progressive Democrats release their own budget plan

It's like apples and oranges compared to the Republicans plan. Or maybe more like "normal functioning member of society" and "insane asylum resident".

The plan claims it will create a budget surplus and reduce the deficit by $5.7 trillion by 2021:

I want that budget passed so very, very badly that it hurts. And I know that it never will, and that hurts even more.

[TerraPrime]

Say something for GOP presidential hopefuls. Say they know their base:

Bachmann And Gingrich Will Address Anti-Gay Organization That’s "Proud To Be A Hate Group"

My favorite quote from one of the group's spokesneanderthal:

No wai!! I hear that arch-conservative GOPers like Cheney, even, refused to disown or condemn their LBG children. It's shocking to hear that the leading GOP candidates for the presidential election will pander to the anti-gay crowd as a way to shore up their credentials with the primary voters. I don't know where these GOP figureheads get their ideas from, to be honest. It's not like the GOP convention in the past had drawn up and ratified planks condemning homosexuality and equal protection for LBGT, or anything. I mean, there's a whole gay group thing in the GOP called Log Cabin, and sometimes, they're even allowed to have a booth at the GOP convention (no homo)!

[awesome possum]

I want that budget passed so very, very badly that it hurts. And I know that it never will, and that hurts even more.

You're right. It "makes sense", which also means it's anathema to most politicians.

[Maithanet]

Again, to some extent, it is a very high stakes game of poker. Will the GOP really refuse to lift the debt ceiling?

Doesn't the means in which these potential gains could be achieved bother you even a little?

Threatening to shatter the US economy for political gain is not something I would support from anyone, even if the potential gains were something I strongly support.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Doesn't the means in which these potential gains could be achieved bother you even a little?

If by "means" you mean negotiating the debt ceiling, absolutely not. Negotiating hard reductions in spending as a condition precedent to agreeing to take on more debt seems pretty rational to me.

Threatening to shatter the US economy for political gain is not something I would support from anyone, even if the potential gains were something I strongly support.

I don't view it as "political" gain. I view it as highly substantive gains that will make the U.S. economy and people much better off.

[TrackerNeil]

I'm fine with that. But in fairness to at least some in the GOP, they've been extremely upfront in saying that entitlements are the problem. Which is one reason why they don't support the creation of a new one.

Well, they sure haven't been very straightforward about tackling that problem. The ACA includes Medicare cuts the GOP has longed for decades to make, yet the party wants to repeal it and make the same cuts under Paul Ryan's plan. That's not "extremely upfront"; that's disingenuity of the highest order.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

It's shocking to hear that the leading GOP candidates for the presidential election will pander to the anti-gay crowd as a way to shore up their credentials with the primary voters.

Since when are Bachmann and Gingrich "the leading GOP candidates for the presidential election?"