Names

[Josquius]

I'm wondering- has Martin ever commented on why he chose the family names he did?

Are certain names said to be andal, others first men, etc....?

I wonder this because...well some of the names to me stand out as suspencion of belief breakers. Bolton for instance. Why is there a Lord Bolton on this alien world far from Lancashire?

So many of the names just seem so very...mundane. And English. Which is odd considering the supposed deep history of the world

[Maestress Sand]

You can go through his interviews on http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/ and http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/ for the nitpickings, but as I recall the basics were that in preparing to write a medieval-era story, Martin read all he could about medieval times in his native language, i.e., Medieval British Isles. Also, not being a linguist, he says that he tried to pick some names as being "basic" and "neutral" to him; being an English speaker, this meant he picked names like Robert and Brandon and Eddard (obvious minor variant on Edward). People, especially linguist-fans and fans from other countries, have pointed out to him that many of these names are not necessarily neutral but come from Germanic or Welsh or Norse or whatever origins (not necessarily the ones I listed here). He has replied with what I read as a kind of (shrug)-I'm-not-a-linguist manner.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

walter tyrell - man who killed william rufus

gaunt - john of gaunt, duke of lancaster

stark - york, lannister - lancaster

arnulf (karstark) - name of several counts of flanders

and many more personal and family names originating from noble medieval houses - though martin is quite original when it comes to personal names (mance, cayn, jory, daven, stannis,... and variations like yohn, jon, robb...)

martell - cognac??? :laugh:

EDIT: all in all nice combinations, names are quite simple and distinctive

[morbiczer]

martell - cognac??? :laugh:

Martel(l) means hammer in old French. Charles Martel was the grandfather of Charlemagne.

[Athelstane]

Actually I think Martin did quite well with the names. The are easy to pronounce and realistic enough that they allow me (and I suppose others) to feel like the people are more realistic. One thing I hate about most fantasy is the ridiculous names. Jack Vance is a great writer, but if I have to spend another minute trying to pronounce a name in the Dying World Im going to shoot myself.

[Xenophon]

I also liked the familiarity of the names.

I assumed that the English-sounding names are Andal and normal on Westeros, while more exotic names indicate foreign origin. So the odd Targaryen names remind you that their house were recent invaders, while the Starks, Lannisters, and Greyjoys were ancient families.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Martel(l) means hammer in old French. Charles Martel was the grandfather of Charlemagne.

martells of sunspear undoubtedly have 2 ls, like cognac

but i get your point

[Josquius]

Some of the names are fine. Stark for instance is not so common is and fitting.

But Bolton? Having the Boltons of the Dreadfort is just silly. Bolton is a well known and rather naff town.

Then some of the other common surnames are a bit odd.

[Xenophon]

Some of the names are fine. Stark for instance is not so common is and fitting.

But Bolton? Having the Boltons of the Dreadfort is just silly. Bolton is a well known and rather naff town.

Then some of the other common surnames are a bit odd.

Maybe in England, but not on this side of the pond. Martin's American right? I suspect that's the reason. Bolton doesn't sound any less fantastic than Stark to my North American ear.

[Dragonfish]

If I recall correctly, a lot of the names of families descended from the First Men are short, and tend to resemble a noun or an adjective: Stark, Reed, Glover, Flint, etc. But the names of families descended from the Andals have different origins: Lannisters from Lann the Clever (according to legend), Manderlys from the Mander river, etc.

Bolton doesn't sound strange to my American ear, either.

[Fireball07]

Bolton is a real surname too...I'm not English but I do know the town, and while it came to mind originally, I quite like it in context of the books.

I don't mind fantastical names (or ones that sound strange to me) but having the ordinary ones is cool too.

Royce, Flint, Bolton, Tyrell, all the bastard names, Staunton, Bracken, Piper, Vance, Egen, Moore, Hunter, Payne, Hunt, Rowan, Webber, Penrose, Fowler- these are all real names and not uncommon either. And I would guess that about 70-80% of the surnames are real...

Obviously he makes some of them up, but those are normal-sounding but in the context of the series sound quite natural in the fantasy setting aswell. I like it.

I don't expect (or want) perfect linguistics from our world for his names. Whatever sounds good is good enough for me tbh.

[Buckwheat]

Actually I think Martin did quite well with the names. The are easy to pronounce and realistic enough that they allow me (and I suppose others) to feel like the people are more realistic. One thing I hate about most fantasy is the ridiculous names. Jack Vance is a great writer, but if I have to spend another minute trying to pronounce a name in the Dying World Im going to shoot myself.

Replying to all who have said anything about the simple pronunuciation of the names.

Easy to pronunce? I never even try to pronounce Daenerys (I always say Dany) and I bet I pronounce half the other names wrong. Surely my first language is far from English (it is Slovene) and my English pronunciation was never excellent, but I saw many people also in this forum wondering about the "correct" pronunciation of certain (especially Targaryen) names. So I would not say that the names in general are easy to pronunce.

But I also like all the differences between the names that also show the cultural differences, like Westerosi, Targaryen, Free Cities, Dothraki, Slaver's Bay etc. names.

My favorite "joke" about the names is ORELL (the Eagle) because OREL actually means EAGLE in Slovene. But I am quiet sure GRRM does not know that, so it makes sense only for Slovene readers.

[Brewmaster]

Replying to all who have said anything about the simple pronunuciation of the names.

Easy to pronunce? I never even try to pronounce Daenerys (I always say Dany) and I bet I pronounce half the other names wrong. Surely my first language is far from English (it is Slovene) and my English pronunciation was never excellent, but I saw many people also in this forum wondering about the "correct" pronunciation of certain (especially Targaryen) names. So I would not say that the names in general are easy to pronunce.

Pretty much everything seems to be meant to be pronounced phonetically and its really pretty straightforward. Names like Daenerys (or Viserys, or Lysa for that matter) look a little strange at first glance, because we typically wouldn't see a Y in there. And Daenerys has two of the main spelling tricks GRRM uses to make english syllables come off looking foreign (the other being the "ae" as also seen in words like "Maester".

But really if you go through the words phonetically there's generally only one option for pronunciation and its pretty straightforward.

[strongboar]

When I first started reading ASOIAF I was a bit put off by Martin's names, but with time I've come to appreciate the genius of them. So many fantasy have naming conventions that don't even try to distinguish different cultures or are just plain horribly sounding.

[Brewmaster]

On the subject of names, by the way...

Viserys, Daenerys, Aerys...

Is Varys the only character not known to be Targaryen that ends his name in rys? and is it any kind of clue to his story?

[Mandurang]

Some of the names are fine. Stark for instance is not so common is and fitting.

But Bolton? Having the Boltons of the Dreadfort is just silly. Bolton is a well known and rather naff town.

Then some of the other common surnames are a bit odd.

Bolton is actually a very old name, and the town itself has a long history as well. From Wikipedia, "The name Bolton derives from the Old English bothel and tun, meaning a "settlement with a special building". The first record of the town dates from 1185 as Boelton. It was recorded as Bothelton in 1212, Bowelton in a charter granted by Henry III in 1251, Botelton in 1257, Boulton in 1288, and Bolton after 1307". I don't see anything wrong with naming a House after it.

On the subject of names, by the way...

Viserys, Daenerys, Aerys...

Is Varys the only character not known to be Targaryen that ends his name in rys? and is it any kind of clue to his story?

No. There is, for instance, Ser Harys Haigh and Lord Harys Swyft, Ser Arys Oakheart, Denyo and Ternesio Terys, Lharys, a man-at-arms in service to House Bracken...the list goes on. If anything, it does seem to be an ending of Valyrian origin, much like -ys, but that's about it. There's plenty non-Valyrian names that end in -ys as well.

[Thelonious]

Some of the names are fine. Stark for instance is not so common is and fitting.

But Bolton? Having the Boltons of the Dreadfort is just silly. Bolton is a well known and rather naff town.

Then some of the other common surnames are a bit odd.

That hadn't occurred to me. But i'm a southerner, so I was amused to see that the dull Kentish town of Ashford has an equivalent in Westeros.

I always assumed that the longer unusual names were Valyrian in origin- we know about Targaryen and Velaryon, but I assumed the likes of Celtigar and Dondarrion were from the same stock.

[Lord Godric]

But really if you go through the words phonetically there's generally only one option for pronunciation and its pretty straightforward.

Martin himself said he doesn't care how people pronounce names, which seems to suggest there are many different pronounciations, so there certainly seem to be many different options for quite a few of the names. For instance simple names like Jaime, is one of the most debated names I have seen since I have been on these forums. Ranging from JAY-me, to HIM.

The only names I had trouble with were seemingly simple ones like Catelyn and Lysa. I pronounced them much like I pronounced Jaime and Petyr, which is the modern standard pronounciation, JAY-me and PEE-ter. I pronounced them as KAYT-lin and LEE-sah, but it seems like Martin and those at HBO are pronouncing them as CAT-lin and LIE-sa. So there does seem to be some inconsistency with the "correct" pronounciations. But Martin doesn't care how you pronounce them, so this is all moot anyway.

[Fireball07]

Martin himself said he doesn't care how people pronounce names, which seems to suggest there are many different pronounciations, so there certainly seem to be many different options for quite a few of the names. For instance simple names like Jaime, is one of the most debated names I have seen since I have been on these forums. Ranging from JAY-me, to HIM.

The only names I had trouble with were seemingly simple ones like Catelyn and Lysa. I pronounced them much like I pronounced Jaime and Petyr, which is the modern standard pronounciation, JAY-me and PEE-ter. I pronounced them as KAYT-lin and LEE-sah, but it seems like Martin and those at HBO are pronouncing them as CAT-lin and LIE-sa. So there does seem to be some inconsistency with the "correct" pronounciations. But Martin doesn't care how you pronounce them, so this is all moot anyway.

Jaime is the only pronunciation I don't like. I always pronounced it either "gem" or "jaym" (rhyming with dame)

Petyr, I always pronounced Pet-urr, rhyming with "letter"

But I did pronounced Catelyn and Lysa "CAT-lin" and "LIE-sa"

[georgeforeman]

The only names I had trouble with were seemingly simple ones like Catelyn and Lysa. I pronounced them much like I pronounced Jaime and Petyr, which is the modern standard pronounciation, JAY-me and PEE-ter. I pronounced them as KAYT-lin and LEE-sah, but it seems like Martin and those at HBO are pronouncing them as CAT-lin and LIE-sa.

Really? Weird. 'Cause I knew someone named Catelyn, and she pronounced it, you know, like KAYT-lin. Weird to just mis-pronounce something normal.