The Fight at the Tower of Joy

[Happy Ent]

If Reed did warg into Dayne just before he died, would he have long-term mental ramifications, like a disorder or something? I like the theory, which would explain Howland sending his kids to Winterfell instead of going himself, if he was in a (sorta)vegetative state afterwards.

Yes. The two theories I’m defending here are known as “Howland Superwarg” and “Howland is a vegetable”. I take credit for neither, they’ve been on this board for half a decade at least, if not 10 years.

Tentative timeline, for PotN:

267AL: Lyanna born

???: Beginning of the long winter. Howland visits Isle of Faces.

281AL: Year of the False Spring. Howland leaves Isle of Faces. Lyanna beats up bullies.

282AL: Robert’s Rebellion

283-4AL: Arthur Dayne dies.

I obsessed about the length of the winter before the false spring once, but can’t find my notes. Let’s say three years?

[LC Snow]

I completely agree. Another aspect is bonding. Hodor has been carrying Bran around for a while now. He’s attuned to Bran’s wishes.But Bran can completely control Hodor, without any training or much intent.

Even a superwarg like Varamyr Sixskins can’t just puppeteer the Mance’s enemies.

But all I need from Howland is that he can make Arthur fumble a parry, miss a step, or something like that. Possibly at the very extreme’s of Howland’s concentration and will power, and only with years of green man training. I think that sounds fairly plausible. He’s be crazy to not use it in this situation.

I didn't think Howland's "green man training" had much to do with wargind but more do do with the green dreams and whatnot, now whatever he did on the isle of the faces... who knows.

[youper]

HE I like your theory. It think it is very important point that Howland Reed hasn't been seen yet. He sent his kids instead of coming himself to Winterfall, and he hasn't marched to war with Robb. Either he was injured in some way in the fight, or he is mad at Ned. I suspect the former.

[Happy Ent]

By the way, the age for Lyanna I’m quoting here can’t be right. She must be 17 or something like that, maybe 18. Sorry. Too much fertilizer.

Make Howland look a bit better. Get’s rescued by a 17-year old girl.

[Datepalm]

Howland can't be too vegetative, becuase he managed to father those kids, somehow, and tell them stories and instill a bit of loyalty and that sort of thing. Unless you want to get more conspiratorial and suggest they aren't actually his?

[Datepalm]

By the way, the age for Lyanna I'm quoting here can't be right. She must be 17 or something like that, maybe 18. Sorry. Too much fertilizer.

Make Howland look a bit better. Get's rescued by a 17-year old girl.

Lyanna is younger than Ned, who would have been, what, 37? at the most in 300. So born no earlier than 263. 264 just about works for Lyannas birth then.

[Drogo]

I thought Ned was in his mid to late twenties. not his thirties. As for the battle, I always imagined everyone just killing each other within twenty minutes. Specifically it would be Ned and Reed fighting Dayne. I believe that Reed is a better fighter than we all believed him to be especially after a few years fighting next to ned and robert. Regardless it was semi-even then Dayne was about to kill Ned and Reed reached out desperately much like Bran did to Hodor, giving Ned enough time to kill him. Reed isn't a superwarg in doing this. Rather he is probably a well learned earth magic user who i doubt would willingly take control of someone, instead this is something he jsut did out of reaction to seeing his best friend nearly die. Doubt he has brain damage. The way his kids talk about it him make say otherwise.

[Prince of the North]

Yes. The two theories I’m defending here are known as “Howland Superwarg” and “Howland is a vegetable”. I take credit for neither, they’ve been on this board for half a decade at least, if not 10 years.

Tentative timeline, for PotN:

267AL: Lyanna born

???: Beginning of the long winter. Howland visits Isle of Faces.

281AL: Year of the False Spring. Howland leaves Isle of Faces. Lyanna beats up bullies.

282AL: Robert’s Rebellion

283-4AL: Arthur Dayne dies.

I obsessed about the length of the winter before the false spring once, but can’t find my notes. Let’s say three years?

Thanks HE! I appreciate it :)

Also, someone talked about Howland not coming when the banners are called or marching to war could be evidence that he was injured somehow at ToJ. I don't think that's it. I just think the Crannogmen are isolationist and they know they're not much good at open warfare (that's why Howland sending his kids is a big deal). However, they are reputed to be pretty good guerrilla warriors in their home environs. The crannogmen don't play away games but you'd better not mess with them on their home field! ;)

[Queen in the North]

I think it's mentioned somewhere that some crannogmen archers joined Robb's host (in AGOT when they're at Moat Cailin?), so it's unlikely that Howland Reed is mad at Ned or anything.

[Xanrn]

Superwarg theory is interesting.

But there is a much simpler explanation.

Its called the Jon Snow vs Iron Emmett theory.

Ned like Jon has rage issues, during the fight with the 3 Idiots, he lost his temper and was able to engage Arthur with such fury, Arthur lost his awareness and Howland came in behind for the backstab bonus.

That its 7 men defeating 3, doesn't need magic. When it already has realism. This isn't Erikson, Master Swordsmen means just that, not demigod sword saint who can carve entire armies to pieces.

And offc Ned had Ice, normal steel doesn't last against Dawn.

Why wouldn't Ned have Ice, the Tower of Joy was after the fall of King's Landing. So even if Lord Stark was stupid enough to take Ice south with him, Ned would have got it back before ToJ anyway.

Dayne wasn't the Leader of the Kingsguard, The Bull was. So Ned being the Leader of his band, went against Dayne because only Ice could match Dawn.

It doesn't need magical explanations. Ned like Jon beat the the superior swordsmen by letting his Rage loose and because he wanted to get to his Sister.

Ned beat Arthur Dayne through Rage and Willpower and the Kingsguard obiviously had no further plans but to die taking as many Rebels with them as possible.

Their just lucky Ned only showed up with 6 mates, instead of 50 or some Archers/Crossbowmen.

As for Ice, why the hell would anyone have a ceremonial Valryian Steel weapon?

Being Valryian Steel allows weapons to be slightly bigger than normal because it weights less.

The rest if just standard Fantasy Author's love of oversized weaponry, see Robert's Hammer that grown men struggle to lift... Do you struggle to lift a 10lb sledge? Probably not. Considering Warhammers are more along the 2lb-5lb max, Westeros most be full of weaklings.

[Volderon]

Well as for Ice being ceremonial...in the TV show Eddard has his own sword but Theon keeps Ice wrapped up...so...I guess that's where the confusion comes from.

[Bronn Stone]

ASOIAF is not a role playing game and Dawn is not a super weapon. You don't need a +1 Sword of Dorkiness to face it. Normal steel would suffice in the hands of a sufficiently skilled swordsman (which Lord Eddard clearly was not). Ser Arthur Dayne was the best swordsman of the age, but if you poke him, doth he not bleed?

The Others are a different story, but they aren't relevant to this comparison.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Happy Ent; good theory. I likey.

[The Sand Snake]

I agree with Xanrn that I don't think there was anything magical about it, or at least not the warging theory, although it is interesting. More like Ned and Howland got really, really lucky. Sometimes lucky stuff happens. Maybe Dayne fell, maybe Howland caught him off gaurd. But I'd say 8/10 times the 3 kill the 7.

[gumby]

ASOIAF is not a role playing game and Dawn is not a super weapon. You don't need a +1 Sword of Dorkiness to face it. Normal steel would suffice in the hands of a sufficiently skilled swordsman (which Lord Eddard clearly was not). Ser Arthur Dayne was the best swordsman of the age, but if you poke him, doth he not bleed?

The Others are a different story, but they aren't relevant to this comparison.

Tell that to the Smiling Knight

Arthur Dayne next fought an extended exchange with him until the Smiling Knight's sword broke. Dayne paused the fight and allowed the outlaw to take a fresh sword.

The Smiling Knight was an infamous outlaw of the equally infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. He was thought to be insane, but was also a deadly swordsman.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Smiling_Knight

[Sivin]

Ned Stark

Howland Reed

Theo Wull

Ethan Glover

Martyn Cassel

Lord Dustin

Ser Mark Ryswell

Ser Arthur Dayne

Ser Gerold Hightower

Ser Oswell Whent

Here's how it went down.

Ned, Reed, and Wull all attack Whent. Glover and Cassel attack Hightower. And Dustin and Ryswell attack Dayne.

-Hightower quickly kills Cassel in a brilliant display of defensive swordsmanship.

-Dayne inflicts a deep wound to Ryswell's upper arm that severs the vital artery causing him to collapse into death throes.

-Ned, Reed, and Wull quickly overwhelm Whent and rush to help their comrades as Hightower and Dayne stand back to back in order to better protect themselves from the five attackers.

-Ned says "We'll attack as one, Wull you go..." but Wull sees Ryswell dying and screams "No I'm taking him now" and rushes forward.

-Hightower throws his sword into Wull, killing him, and quickly grabs it and begins attacking the four remaining men while they are stunned.

-Hightower kills Glover after a short exchange and lands a glancing blow to the side of Reed, who was moving forward to keep Dayne away from Ned, causing him to retreat.

-Now Dustin is lined up against Hightower, and Dayne against Ned.

-Suddenly, Megatron and Optimus Prime emerge from the tower and begin fighting.

-In the ensuing carnage; Dustin accidentally kicked by Megatron and dies, Hightower is used by Starscream to try and feed the autobot baby's (this doesn't make sense to me either), Dayne's leg is shattered by a stray bullet (which results in Ned being able to kill him), and Reed's face is partially melted (causing him to fear public exposure).

-Ned becomes scarred for life and is now unable to talk about it...

I know, it isn't how you thought it would be... But that's how it happened.

[Monday]

As for Ice, why the hell would anyone have a ceremonial Valryian Steel weapon?

I don't know. How would I know what was going through the mind of some ancient Stark? Why would anyone make a throne out of a ton of swords? Why would someone build a castle as big and carvernous as Harrenhal? Why do some people put spoilers on their Chevy Aveos?

The rest if just standard Fantasy Author's love of oversized weaponry, see Robert's Hammer that grown men struggle to lift...

Haha.Fair enough. Perhaps you are right. Ned just stikes me as more sensible than Robert. Robert is showy and in IMHO comes off like he's overcompensating for insecurities with his masculinity or something (the womanizing, hard drinking, my hammer is bigger than yours BS). Ned is a different animal altogether. Ned knows who he is and has nothing to prove. Never figured him as the sort to use something so unweildy and in combat.

Well as for Ice being ceremonial...in the TV show Eddard has his own sword but Theon keeps Ice wrapped up...so...I guess that's where the confusion comes from.

If I'm not mistaken, in the first Bran chapter in AGOT Bran notes that Ice is slightly taller than Robb or something like that. I remember thinking that it didn't sound like a practical weapon for a man Ned's size. That being said, I know nothing about swords. Maybe a bigass 5ft+ sword is a perfectly resonable weapon to take into battle.

ASOIAF is not a role playing game and Dawn is not a super weapon. You don't need a +1 Sword of Dorkiness to face it. Normal steel would suffice in the hands of a sufficiently skilled swordsman (which Lord Eddard clearly was not). Ser Arthur Dayne was the best swordsman of the age, but if you poke him, doth he not bleed?

Too funny. I'm with you on this. Normal swords have been known to break after a while against Valayrian steel, but it's not like they cut through regular steel like butter. They aren't lightsabers!

Anyhow, Howland warging Dayne is a neat idea, but wouldn't the easier explaination be that he just threw his boot or something (and don't Crannogmen use poison darts?). Occam's razor.

[Whatever]

By the way, the age for Lyanna I’m quoting here can’t be right. She must be 17 or something like that, maybe 18. Sorry. Too much fertilizer.

she died at 16. She was likely 14/almost 15 at harrenhall.

I obsessed about the length of the winter before the false spring once, but can’t find my notes. Let’s say three years?

probably.. two or three years.

tyrion (who was 6 or 7 at the time) is born during a winter that lasted 3 years.

If we consider

tyrion's birth 273/74

end of winter 275/76

spring 276

summer 277

i guess that summer lasted almost 2 or 3 years

so we'll have

summer 277-279

winter 279-281

[The Undead Martyr]

FYI, Lyanna was 16 when she died. IIRC, the crypt scene in GoT has ned think of her as a "woman child" of 16, or somesuch.

[Corvinus85]

Anyhow, Howland warging Dayne is a neat idea, but wouldn't the easier explaination be that he just threw his boot or something (and don't Crannogmen use poison darts?). Occam's razor.

Or as I suggested - a net. Meera proved how effective a net can be when she trapped Summer with it.

Also, IMO most of the magics of the crannogmen are no more that survival skills in a rough land like the Neck. They probably know all the plants, which ones have medicinal properties, which ones are poisonous etc. They also know more about the children of the forest, and some like Jojen have some gifts from the old gods. But I don't think warging is one of these gifts.