The Fight at the Tower of Joy

[Talleyrand]

I've never subscribed to the superwarg theory. I was never too fond of magicky things. I always just thought that Dayne was pressing Ned to the limit, maybe getting past his defence a couple times and cutting him. When Howland freed up from another fight jabs at Arthur's head, hitting his helmet and disorientating him slightly. Dayne then spins round and swings at Reed, cutting him in the leg or stomach (Or any kind of medium to big wound) Ned then takes the advantage and stabs Arthur in the side, killing him.

[Nukelavee]

Here's my issues with the use of magic and super-wargs in this hypothetical scene...

it doesn't fit the world we have been reading about. It all seems more like "I LOVE this idea, now lets see if i can bash things together and make it seem to work".

-yeah, i could be wrong, and one day, we'll all know for certain-

1. Crannog magic. Running on water, breathing mud, yaddayadda...Chalk this "magic" up to a combination of the crannogs knowing their enviroment incredibly well, and having a huge skill set revolving around surviving and being productive in teh fens, along with the likelhood that no "real" man likes to admit he was outsmarted by a frogeater.

So, basically, crannogmen know where it's safe to walk, how to track or hide a trail, concealment, etc... and when they outsmart a bunch of Frey knights and men at arms...of COURSE it was vile mudmagic, not being outplayed.

2. I don't buy that there is some kinda Hogworts for Children and Crannogs on that Island. If there were, people would have some inkling of it.

3. Warging and Howland. Well, for one, people are way to quick to assign warging as a talent to damn near everything in this series. I'm pretty certain it's incredibly rare as an ability. I also think there is a huge difference between Bran the warg, and his siblings wolf dreams; ie, they can share the minds of their wolves, as opposed to Bran actually wearing Summer and Hoder.

Next, about Howland, magic, and warging at the tower...no magic. 15 years ago, there were no dragons, no magic, it's only been, really, since the last few years magic has reappeared at a level enough to matter/be useable.

Not that this is "proof", but the pyromancers mention how much easier production of "the substance" is now, compared to recent history...

And last...Jojen is pretty dedicated to the old wisdom, I find it just as likely that he's passing on knowledge to Bran he heard in songs and stories, from his elders, or perhaps even read.

oh, yeah - just as likely Howland managed to distract Dayne, or made him miss a step.

Just because, btw, Dayne was THE best swordsman, doesn't mean Ned sucked. At that level of combat, no matter how amazing you are, things are decided by fractions of a second or inches.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I don't buy that there is some kinda Hogworts for Children and Crannogs on that Island. If there were, people would have some inkling of it.

The theory doesn't require there to be some kind of magic school there; but we're told explicitly that Howland went there to learn the secrets of the green men, and spent the winter with them.

Next, about Howland, magic, and warging at the tower...no magic. 15 years ago, there were no dragons, no magic, it's only been, really, since the last few years magic has reappeared at a level enough to matter/be useable.

15 years ago, there were Faceless Men, pyromancers making wildfire, white walkers receiving Craster's offerings, the three-eyed crow sending visions... they weren't as powerful as they are now, but magic certainly existed.

In fact, we know for a fact that warging has been effective for generations; Varamyr remembers meeting dozens of them in the ADWD prologue, and there was a whole wildling culture based around them.

[Alcatur]

As to Two-Handed swords being unwieldy - actually they were mainly emplyed in open field, especially in late medieval, in a veriety of roles. See any reenactment - for example during Bohurt tournament (I live in Poland, not sure how it is called elsewhere) two-handed swords are weapon of choice of many participants, even though you can use pretty much everything in them, and they are not slower than any other weapon.

Ice, while wide, is no that long - I never saw information about Robbs height, but I also thought he was just below 6 feet when adult. There were two -handed swords longer than that, and I have wielded one roughly equal to my height (6 feet 2 inches) without much problem. ALso modern replicas, due to safety reasons, are often even heavier tha original ones (they are more square than rhomboidal and thus heavier).

Valyrian Steel may be very useful in such a duel; It makes the blade lighter and more manouverable, not prone to breaking, constaltly sharp - so its easier to breach an armour with it. Every Valyrian weapon we saw was a tool of war as well as ceremonial, and of all people I do not see Starks having the only strictly ceremonial one. As to Ned not wearing it everyday - well, it is long, He would look weird with it hanging constantly from his back.

As to the Varg theory - I believe we should be careful with that; after all there are no other wargs on this side of the wall than Starks. Neither Jojen nor Meera are ones; while in no way this is a proof that Howland is also not one, fact is that the power of the Old gods is only now returning to strenght on this side of the Wall (Direwolves as gifts from the gods, prophetic dreams, etc), so I would seach for non-warg solutions. Also I would think that his "training" at the Isle of Faces focused mainly on dreams - something we know he is good at.

Even if Howland was not a good swordsman, he could have easily been a second line fighter, using trident/spear and searching for occasion - i can see for example him moving slightly behind Ned and using longer reach to stab Arthut Dayne when he had his sword-arm raised, wounding him and enabling Ned to finish the fight.

And I would not rely too much on Ned "honour" - while he is honourable, it was not a duel, but a battle with low-numbers, with an objective (get Lyanna) - he never wanted to fight the kingsguard one on one, and there was no such rule, so I doubt he would object to some strategemas/manouvres by Howland/anyone else.

[Nukelavee]

Alcatur has a good point - North of the Wall may imply different levels of magic. And, we aren't ever shown FM and their magic at the time of Robert's war, so we don't know if it was weaker or not. We DO know that the pyromancers found it EASIER to make the stuff for Tyrion than they had in recent memory, including, i would assume, that which they made for Aerys.

We have no idea when the Others came back, so we have no idea when Craster started his sacrifices... it could have been quite recently, and Mance and the wildings didn't say a thing about the Others being a problem 15 years and more ago.

So, in short - I stick by what i said - The premise GRRM has given us is that magic is on the way back, and it's a recent change, so, I really don't think Howland was a Shadowbolt casting Worgen.

Plus, again and again - "secrets" doesn't have to mean magic. For all we know, Howland was taught the ancient art of Gymkata and told how Cadbury gets the caramel IN the Caramilk bar.

Plus - with the minimal amount of magic we have seen, world wide (i refer you to the display in Quarth, and the comment that a year ago the mage was basically doing 3 card monty) in living memory - to have this single glorious display of the OnmiWarg Exarch Reed, seems pretty damn cheesy.

[Sivin]

The problem with your potential version of events is that Rhaegar is dead by the time the Tower of Joy fight happens. In Ned's remembrance of the battle in AGOT, he recalls telling the Kingsguard that he looked for them at the Trident and at Storm's End. Rhaegar, of course, died on the Trident.

Speaking of Ned's recollection of this, he also remembers Howland Reed taking Lyanna's hand from his after she died. So, I don't think he was disabled at that time.

DAMN!

Thanks, I need to do a reread. I'm trying to time it so that I'll be able to move right into ADWD... (And we all know how hard that will potentially be) :)

[mcbigski]

Do we know for a fact that Ice was in Ned's possession? At that time the Lord of Winterfell carried it and I really could not see the Mad King giving it to him after killing Brandon and their father so unless they left Ice in Winterfell how would Ned have it?

Ned left the Red Keep for the ToJ. Even if Rickard had Ice with him when killed by Aerys, Ned would have recovered it before getting to Lyanna.

[KyleLitke]

Ned left the Red Keep for the ToJ. Even if Rickard had Ice with him when killed by Aerys, Ned would have recovered it before getting to Lyanna.

Yup. The ToJ clearly takes place after the Trident, Kings Landing, and Storms End. I do think it's possible, even likely that Rickard had Ice with him (unless he assumed a trap or something and left it behind), but if so it was likely still at Kings Landing and Ned would have retrieved it when he showed up and kicked Jaime Lannister off the throne.

[Happy Ent]

It just says squires. Not all squires are teenagers.

OK, I looked it up. Again.

They were none older than fifteen, yet even so they were bigger than him, all three.

(removed invective)

[KyleLitke]

I assume this is true, but do we have that textual evidence? Doesn’t it just say “they”?

Note that the – perhaps hyperbolically named – Howard is a vegetable-theory allows for less serious mental defects than being a slobbering zombie.

Sorry, just noticed this. It says that "they" found Ned, but it then says Reed took Ned's hand from Lyanna's.

[Happy Ent]

Sorry, just noticed this. It says that "they" found Ned, but it then says Reed took Ned's hand from Lyanna's.

Thanks, Kyle!

[Jojen]

This is how it went down:

Ned and his bunch arrive at the Tower of Joy.

Ser Gerold says, "This is not the sister you're looking for."

Ned replies, "That boy is our last hope."

They all fight.

As the Sword of Morning lays dying, his final words are "No. There is another."

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Note that uniquely among Ned's loyal bannermen, Howland does not appear when Ned calls his banners. Maybe Howland was "damaged".

I wouldn't read too much into that.

It's not just a matter of the bannermen themselves, it's their troops. Pregnant Lady Flint didn't go to war with Robb, but she most likely sent some soldiers. Not so with the crannogmen, because they have a very different culture and role to play in the defense of the North than the average feudal host. When Jojen and Meera showed up at Winterfell, Maester Luwin said 'this is most unexpected'.

That's not because they, too, were injured while warging into Arthur Dayne, but simply because they're crannogmen. Howland actively going on campaign with Ned would be the exception rather than the rule, I'd say. An exception brought about entirely by the coincidence that he was present at the great tournament of Harrenhal, and the events that happened there.

Now, now, you aren't trying to be snarky, are you?

Good points, I will retract that argument and vow to never use it again.

(Until A Waltz with Wargs finally hits the shelves in 2012, and we'll see Howland the Vegetable and I'll be vindicated!)

This is based on: (1) Howland Reed is not a fighter. He’s the greatest crannogman sorcerer of this generation and has spent many years on the Isle of Faces levelling up. Think lvl 70 animist. (2) Howland is a warg. His two children (none of which are wargs) sure know a lot about warging. (3) Wargs can slip into other people and puppeteer them. We see that Bran can do it, without instruction, to Hodor. Hodor is a lackwit, and Arthur isn’t. But Howland needs not full control, he just needs to slow Arthur down. I claim that a superwarg can do that. (4) It solves the mystery of why we haven’t seen Howland. Uniquely among Ned’s bannermen, he didn’t appear. That’s because he was mentally damaged, similar to what happened to the eagle-warging wildling in Jon’s chapters.

You broke your promise! :crying:

Also, the 2012 date is way optimistic, and the title has been changed to A Witenagemot of Wargs.

[hnv]

I was under the impression ned would fight with Ice. true he wasn't a top dueler but he was battle hardened he just fought a rebellion for a year winning some hard bloody battles (the trident) and leading the van... I wouldn't under estimate him he could stick for himself pretty good otherwise he would have died

btw anyone got a chart to clarify the difference in length between a greatsword, long sword, 2H sword, short sword, simple sword, bastard sword and the rest?

[Whatever]

btw anyone got a chart to clarify the difference in length between a greatsword, long sword, 2H sword, short sword, simple sword, bastard sword and the rest?

as far as i know...

simple sword= 1H sword. you need a hand to hold it.

bastard sword= 1 1/2 H sword. You can use the other hand, putting it on the knob of the sword handle.

gratsword= 2H sword.

the number of hands you need to hold the sword should be little influenced by its lenght, but i bet a greatsword is longer than a simple sword. the weight of the blade should balance the weinght of the hilt. the heavier the sword handle, the longer is the blade.

A short sword is about 40 cm :)

[Aelinor Keath]

hand and a half(bastard) swords have a med length hilt,usually held with one hand but enough room to fit two hands on for when you need extra power. this was the most popular style, with a 3.5 -4 ft ish blade. greatswords are 2 handed 5ft jobs, like a claymore that have to be carried on your back.

[Kaitscralt]

It's worth noting that Ice is as tall (or taller) than Robb, if Bran is to be believed. That's a pretty big sword for close combat.

[Faint]

Some observations and a question:

My first observation is that while the warg theory is a bit out there, so is the concept of Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent losing in a fair fight to Ned and his companions. The way Jaime speaks of him, you would think Dayne could have killed five of his opponents by himself -- and Hightower and Whent were no slouches either. I also like how the theory accounts for the fact that Ned and Howland Reed were the two to survive. If you really think about it, that fact in itself is strange, since they would seem to be the two most likely to die -- Ned because he would have led the attack, being honorable and all, and Reed because he was probably the worst fighter of the lot.

My second observation is that the circumstances of the duel further make me wonder why nobody thought to question what went down at the Tower of Joy in general. Not only that three members of the Kingsguard had been left there, which is strange in it self, but that they lost to Ned and company. Did Jaime never wonder how Ned had gotten out of the affair alive? He seems to have intricate knowledge of how skilled every great fighter or lord in Westeros is, and he had intimate knowledge when it came to his brothers in the Kingsguard, but he just casually excepts that they lost? It's not like Jaime considers Ned a great fighter -- and he's not the only one who should have been suspicious about it in the first place.

Lastly, my question:

Has G.R.R.M. ever indicated whether he would do a write up of this event at some point?

[Kaitscralt]

Has G.R.R.M. ever indicated whether he would do a write up of this event at some point?

The flashback is likely the most we'll get regarding the fight itself. I'm sure anything else we get will be the conversation between Eddard and Lyanna and possibly Howland Reed.

As to Jaime not questioning how strange it was, these men were taking orders from a king ready to burn the entire city down. Perhaps he figured that it was not worth trying to make sense out of the mad kings reasoning, especially not after killing him.

Or maybe Jaime had a dismissive notion about the Tower of Joy -- maybe he thought it was going to be a meeting place for anyone who survived the burning of Kings Landing. Just guesswork on my part. Who knows?

The seven beating the three is not all that surprising to me, even with Dayne involved. Eddard's adrenaline from hearing Lyanna could have turned him into a super soldier for the battle. Or maybe right before Dayne ran Eddard through, Lyanna's screaming distracted him because of something she said, or the fact that she was dying giving birth to a child and they had failed to guard her, and in that fleeting moment of hesitation Howland Reed managed to stab him in the back.

[Faint]

Seven against three, in itself, isn't so surprising. But if the three are some of the best fighters in Westeros?

For example, if the Hound, pre-injury, Jaime, pre-maiming, and Bronn fought against seven fighters of average skill, would we expect them to lose?