The Fight at the Tower of Joy

[Kaitscralt]

No, but your examples are semi-main characters, and these three weren't.

I know it is a cop out to put it that way, but that's just the way it goes. I edited my last post to give a few more ideas about what might have happened.

[Sivin]

This is how it went down:

Ned and his bunch arrive at the Tower of Joy.

Ser Gerold says, "This is not the sister you're looking for."

Ned replies, "That boy is our last hope."

They all fight.

As the Sword of Morning lays dying, his final words are "No. There is another."

BRILLIANCE!

[Happy Ent]

Seven against three, in itself, isn't so surprising. But if the three are some of the best fighters in Westeros?

For example, if the Hound, pre-injury, Jaime, pre-maiming, and Bronn fought against seven fighters of average skill, would we expect them to lose?

We know very little about the seven, actually. Here’s the relevant book quote:

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion.

This is all we know, except for the other quotes about Howland I already posted, telling us how little of a fighter he was. No reason to believe they were of average skill. I assume were selected primarily because they were very loyal Northmen and close friends to the Starks.

[Gaston de Foix]

We know very little about the seven, actually. Here’s the relevant book quote:

This is all we know, except for the other quotes about Howland I already posted, telling us how little of a fighter he was. No reason to believe they were of average skill. I assume were selected primarily because they were very loyal Northmen and close friends to the Starks.

Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire and so presumably had a debt that needed repayment, Howland Reed similarly to Lyanna, Cassells were very loyal Stark retainers. The list practically screams people of utmost discretion. There were no Umbers or Boltons or Manderlys there for instance, even though the Greatjon would have been around at that time and is presumably quite a good fighter.

[seppuku]

ASOIAF is not a role playing game and Dawn is not a super weapon. You don't need a +1 Sword of Dorkiness to face it. Normal steel would suffice in the hands of a sufficiently skilled swordsman (which Lord Eddard clearly was not). Ser Arthur Dayne was the best swordsman of the age, but if you poke him, doth he not bleed?

What are you basing the claim that Ned wasn't a sufficiently skilled swordsman? That sounds almost ridiculous. He was raised and trained with Brandon Stark and Robert, both known as great warriors. Fought and won wars.

Ned was a solider, a trained killer of men. He might not have had the individual skill of Dayne (no one did), but all he would need is for Dayne to lose focus for a split second, where he could cause a wound that would level the playing field or even give him the advantage.

[Talleyrand]

Seven against three, in itself, isn't so surprising. But if the three are some of the best fighters in Westeros?

For example, if the Hound, pre-injury, Jaime, pre-maiming, and Bronn fought against seven fighters of average skill, would we expect them to lose?

Even the best fighter can be stabbed in the back when he's fighting several opponents

[Beric_D]

Huh, I recall writing down what I thought had happened at the Tower of Joy when I was younger. Can't remember a thing though, might try and dig it out.

[Tyler Snow]

If Howland was a vegetable how would he have been able to conceive both Meera and Jojen? Both (Jojen at least) are young enough to have to have been conceived after the events of Tower of Joy. I don't think its out of the question that Eddard commanded Howland to remain in the swamp so that he could avoid being captured/interrogated by any enemies and thus divulge what actually happened at the ToJ.

I'm not disagreeing with the superwarg theory, just saying I don't believe Howland is a vegetable. Also, the fact that Greywater Watch seems to move probably indicates Howland is the necessary factor that makes that possible and can't leave the swamp. Just a thought.

[Lord Godric]

If Howland was a vegetable how would he have been able to conceive both Meera and Jojen? Both (Jojen at least) are young enough to have to have been conceived after the events of Tower of Joy. I don't think its out of the question that Eddard commanded Howland to remain in the swamp so that he could avoid being captured/interrogated by any enemies and thus divulge what actually happened at the ToJ.

I'm not disagreeing with the superwarg theory, just saying I don't believe Howland is a vegetable. Also, the fact that Greywater Watch seems to move probably indicates Howland is the necessary factor that makes that possible and can't leave the swamp. Just a thought.

I'm not sure I believe the theory that Howland is a vegetable either, but I do know there has been much speculation on the true age of Jojen. I think he is truly 13, just matured because of the sickness he suffered from and the greensight, but still, there are theories that he is much older than 13.

[Toranaga]

To be honest i dont buy this whole Superwarg theory, since the Dragons have not been reborn yet, and there didnt seem to be magic of any sort during this period.

The biggest evidence for me in this issue is that it seems that every one of the Stark children possess the ability to Warg, and that inclines me to believe that every person who ever had Stark blood in his veins can Warg.

So really, IF there could be Wargs before the return of the Dragons,I would have expected Eddard to be aware of the fact that every Stark is a Warg, and mention it sometime in the series or explain to his children somthing related to Warging since it is a family trait.

So how could Howland have been a Warg?

[Xcorpyo001]

To be honest i dont buy this whole Superwarg theory, since the Dragons have not been reborn yet, and there didnt seem to be magic of any sort during this period.

The biggest evidence for me in this issue is that it seems that every one of the Stark children possess the ability to Warg, and that inclines me to believe that every person who ever had Stark blood in his veins can Warg.

So really, IF there could be Wargs before the return of the Dragons,I would have expected Eddard to be aware of the fact that every Stark is a Warg, and mention it sometime in the series or explain to his children somthing related to Warging since it is a family trait.

So how could Howland have been a Warg?

As I said in another post(can't recall the exact topic), I think that Dragons are connected only with fire magic(or all magic related to R'hllor)

The wargs are something totally different. They are probably connected with the magic of the CotF and the weirwoods, and they used magic since the dawn of time(but we don't know for sure if dragon existed at that time).

Wargs are very common north of the wall, and people south of the wall know about them and consider them evil or unnatural.

And Sixskins for example learned how to warg even before Dani raised her dragons.

Bran was receiving magic messages from a 3EC loooong before Dani's dragons came into existence.

[Toranaga]

As I said in another post(can't recall the exact topic), I think that Dragons are connected only with fire magic(or all magic related to R'hllor)

The wargs are something totally different. They are probably connected with the magic of the CotF and the weirwoods, and they used magic since the dawn of time(but we don't know for sure if dragon existed at that time).

Wargs are very common north of the wall, and people south of the wall know about them and consider them evil or unnatural.

And Sixskins for example learned how to warg even before Dani raised her dragons.

Bran was receiving magic messages from a 3EC loooong before Dani's dragons came into existence.

Thats what i first thought, it just seems to be inconsistent with the fact that no one ever mentioned even once in the series any past connection between being a Stark and being a Warg.

[morbiczer]

Thats what i first thought, it just seems to be inconsistent with the fact that no one ever mentioned even once in the series any past connection between being a Stark and being a Warg.

Maybe simply because previous Starks were no wargs?

And Meera is 16 in early ASOS, so Jojen can't be much older than 13.

[Tyler Snow]

I had an inkling that, if the superwarg theory was true AND Howland could not leave the Neck, for whatever reason, what a twist it would be if he was controlling Jojen. It would explain Jojen's unseemly maturity for such a young age and would be a pretty controversial state that Howland has put his son in.

That is a more crazy theory than probably theory however.

[Xcorpyo001]

I had an inkling that, if the superwarg theory was true AND Howland could not leave the Neck, for whatever reason, what a twist it would be if he was controlling Jojen. It would explain Jojen's unseemly maturity for such a young age and would be a pretty controversial state that Howland has put his son in.

That is a more crazy theory than probably theory however.

Ahhh, Jojen can see into the future. You know, neverending night, people dying everywhere, zombies raised from the dead, dragons fighting God knows what, everythink he knew destroyed and humanity on the bring of extinction.

I consider him acting very normal under the circumstances. Other people will cry every single moment, and be terrified to even sleep.

Considering that, he is quite cheerful.

And Bran doesn't make things easier.

Jojen: I saw the future.. I saw the Others killing everything in sight. I saw the never ending night, mothers kiling their children, etc"Bran, the 3EC is our only hope. We need to find him/it now!"

Bran: "Nahhh, I think I'll warg into Summer and chase some squirrels."

Jojen: "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!"

Really guys, given the circumstances I think he has all the reasons in the world to be concerned.

And back to the warging issue.

I see GRRM inspiring himself from the Native Americans and their totem animals.

They choose an animal as a totem and through it they communicate with nature; ot they try to communicate with their totem

The direwolf is the animal totem of the Starks. But in time they lost that connection and they forgot they can warg.

Ned didn't had a direwolf, so he doesn't know he can warg.

Sansa T. lost her direwolf, so she doesn't know she can warg. She lost her connection with the old magic.

[Lannes]

One of my biggest hopes for the remainder of ASOIAF is that Howland Reed will recount what happened at the Tower of Joy.

[Sera dy Relandrant]

Lyanna made everyone promise not to hurt her brothers. It is known.

[Talleyrand]

Lyanna made everyone promise not to hurt her brothers. It is known.

Then why did Arthur Dayne nearly kill Ned?

[Sera dy Relandrant]

Self-defense? Remember, he didn't actually kill Ned and we don't even know that Ned was fatally wounded.

[seppuku]

Self-defense? Remember, he didn't actually kill Ned and we don't even know that Ned was fatally wounded.

No, that theory doesn't work.

If Ned was promised not to be harmed they would have never picked up swords against him. If you remember, Ned offered them an out and Kingsguard would have none of it.