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Anduin Lothar

Sansa and Littlefinger in ADWD

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Sansa is far from being a "finished product" in terms of the game of thrones. It will take years for her to be a true independant contestant. She is reliant on Baelish for everything at present, and surely he will keep it that way. Even if she marries Harry soon, he doesnt have any power unless Robert dies, which will be controlled by Baelish. So it would seem that Baelish's talk of an Arryn army sweeping the North and putting Sansa on the throne in Winterfell is fantasy specifically constructed by Baelish to keep Sansa dreaming.

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I don't think LF's odds of surviving until the end are very good, so I fully expect him to be "written out" somewhere along the way. But when it happens, it better not be some freak accident without rhyme or reason. Love him or hate him, I think the dude is one of the most intriguing characters in the series.

I have to agree on this. He's clearly been set up as one of the major antagonists of the series. And look how far Baelish has come already: he has been declared the overlord of the Riverlands, he is the de facto ruler of the Vale through his position as lord protector, and he holds the claim to Winterfell in his back pocket through Sansa. That's three of the Seven Kingdoms right there, won entirely by his plotting and gamesmanship. Now, can he hold them through intrigue alone? That's a totally different question. I just can't envision Littlefinger as a ruler, leading the nobility, inspiring the smallfolk, and administering justice.

Robert Arryn's days are numbered, certainly. Sansa is (once again) fooling herself about Littlefinger being out for her best interests, but Petyr is training her for intrigue. Before AFfC, I figured Baelish's nemesis was Tyrion, who would finally get the best of him, but now I wonder if it's going to be Sansa.

That leaves one more open question: what is Sansa's role in the series? She intentionally betrayed Arya and later her own father in the first book. She was a victim in ACoK and ASoS, but in Feast she began to come back into her own. Littlefinger's slowly making her an accomplice in his plots. I don't doubt that she'll eventually "graduate" by backstabbing and discarding Littlefinger, but what then? Will she use her skill at intrigue to do good? Or will she become another Littlefinger in her own right: an amoral, climbing schemer? I also think that any arc involving Sansa must somehow resolve her relationship with Arya.

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That leaves one more open question: what is Sansa's role in the series?

GRRM has emphaisized in the past that Sansa has lost her wolf, with the implication being that her future outlook is none too rosy.

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Too all those who thinks Sansa will excel at plotting -- did you find any evidence that she has even started to grow such a skill?

I honestly don't think she posses the kind of wit to play the game of thrones. I don't remember little Tyrion was ever described as witty, but there were several occasions where Cat described LF as clever/smart.

just can't envision Littlefinger as a ruler, leading the nobility, inspiring the smallfolk, and administering justice.

LF was never meant to be the ruler. I think he's more content functioning as a chief of staff, scheming behind the scenes.

She intentionally betrayed Arya and later her own father in the first book.

She did but she could never have anticipated what her betrayal would done to them in her Disney world. I wonder if she would still have gone to Cersei if she had known her betrayal would have meant the death of his father and all the people from the North.

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Too all those who thinks Sansa will excel at plotting -- did you find any evidence that she has even started to grow such a skill? I honestly don't think she posses the kind of wit to play the game of thrones. I don't remember little Tyrion was ever described as witty, but there were several occasions where Cat described LF as clever/smart. LF was never meant to be the ruler. I think he's more content functioning as a chief of staff, scheming behind the scenes. She did but she could never have anticipated what her betrayal would done to them in her Disney world. I wonder if she would still have gone to Cersei if she had known her betrayal would have meant the death of his father and all the people from the North.

She is starting to grasp the game, in Feast her inner thoughts during Baelish's meeting with Vale lords start to show this. And she is now learning from one of the best. Petyr ran circles around Jon Arryn (dead), Ned Stark (dead), Tyrion Lannister (exile), Cersei (locked up), Robert Baratheon (dead), and a stalemate with Varys.

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Too all those who thinks Sansa will excel at plotting -- did you find any evidence that she has even started to grow such a skill?

Her internal thoughts and the conversations she is having with LF. I mean I presume we are getting all this forshadowing for some reason and that GRRM is not just wasting space with empty filler. Maybe we have wasted our time for four books getting to know this character for no reason?

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She is starting to grasp the game, in Feast her inner thoughts during Baelish's meeting with Vale lords start to show this. And she is now learning from one of the best. Petyr ran circles around ... Tyrion Lannister (exile)...

Not true actually. If you read ACOK carefully, Tyrion actually successfully manages to trap Varys, Pycelle and Littlefinger into revealing their allegiances. Admittedly Littlefinger gets the last laugh on Tyrion, but only because Tyrion's family cuts his knees out from under him.

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I think LF shows something we can all see right. he views the smallfolk as equal to the highborn. having come from the bottom lowest I think he will be on of the three main elements that will finally increase the strength of the small folk in this world (the first is TBWB and the second is varys's plotting, it may seems liek he want a targ regime but from what I gathered I see him as tryign to bring the smallfolk up and justice to the realm)

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Not true actually. If you read ACOK carefully, Tyrion actually successfully manages to trap Varys, Pycelle and Littlefinger into revealing their allegiances. Admittedly Littlefinger gets the last laugh on Tyrion, but only because Tyrion's family cuts his knees out from under him.

Actually...Tyrion's downfall did have Littlefinger's prints all over it. He appears to have conspired with the Tyrells to kill Joffrey and place the blame on Tyrion -- witness the suggestions to Joffrey that the dwarf entertainment would enrage Tyrion, and his knowledge that Sansa could be smuggled out of Kings Landing on the night of Joffrey's feast (in the confusion). Tyrion's family may have used the opportunity to undercut Tyrion, but Littlefinger set up that opportunity.

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Actually...Tyrion's downfall did have Littlefinger's prints all over it. He appears to have conspired with the Tyrells to kill Joffrey and place the blame on Tyrion -- witness the suggestions to Joffrey that the dwarf entertainment would enrage Tyrion, and his knowledge that Sansa could be smuggled out of Kings Landing on the night of Joffrey's feast (in the confusion). Tyrion's family may have used the opportunity to undercut Tyrion, but Littlefinger set up that opportunity.

We're moving to ASOS, but yeah you are right. We should say advantage Littlefinger in his contest with Tyrion. Tyrion was manipulated by Varys as well of course.

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Actually...Tyrion's downfall did have Littlefinger's prints all over it. He appears to have conspired with the Tyrells to kill Joffrey and place the blame on Tyrion -- witness the suggestions to Joffrey that the dwarf entertainment would enrage Tyrion, and his knowledge that Sansa could be smuggled out of Kings Landing on the night of Joffrey's feast (in the confusion). Tyrion's family may have used the opportunity to undercut Tyrion, but Littlefinger set up that opportunity.

It is amazing how effectively he managed that whole situation from so far a distance.

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It is amazing how effectively he managed that whole situation from so far a distance.

Most of it was set up and managed before he "left" for the Vale -- during the time he spent with the Tyrells before they arrived at Kings Landing (effectively spreading information about Joffrey's cruelty and sadism, if not through outright plotting with the Queen of Thorns), and during his time at Kings Landing (convincing Joffrey to let the dwarfs stay as part of the entertainment). The rest he managed with a catspaw (Ser Dontos), who he used to smuggle Sansa out of Kings Landing and who he killed to avoid events being traced back to him.

I think his three primary goals (in order of priority) were: (1) have Joffrey assassinated in a manner that could initially be construed as natural; (2) smuggle out Sansa in the confusion before the use of poison on Joffrey could be confirmed; and (3) implicate Tyrion (and the missing Sansa) in the assassination to the extent possible. While Tyrion's implication was not assured (he could have visited the privy while the dwarf entertainment was happening), it was (I'm sure) a likely and pleasant side effect of the other plots.

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Let's not forget that Littlefinger had no reason to know that Cersei had heard a prophecy she understood to mean that Tyrion would kill her children.

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Let's not forget that Littlefinger had no reason to know that Cersei had heard a prophecy she understood to mean that Tyrion would kill her children.

If Littlefinger had known THAT, I'm sure that he would have played up that angle as much as he could. I'm sure he did know, however, that Cersei disliked and mistrusted her brother, and used that to the extent possible (remember - Varys was not the only one whispering in her ear).

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Actually...Tyrion's downfall did have Littlefinger's prints all over it. He appears to have conspired with the Tyrells to kill Joffrey and place the blame on Tyrion -- witness the suggestions to Joffrey that the dwarf entertainment would enrage Tyrion, and his knowledge that Sansa could be smuggled out of Kings Landing on the night of Joffrey's feast (in the confusion). Tyrion's family may have used the opportunity to undercut Tyrion, but Littlefinger set up that opportunity.

I feel like it should be pointed out that Tyrion had quite a bit of control/influence going on in King's Landing (over everybody), that was only lost when he was injured during the attack and effectively pulled out of the game for a week (or weeks? I can't recall). I firmly believe that he would have likely maintained, if not increased, his power had he not been injured.

I suppose one could argue that LF was the one behind Mandon's attack, effectively removing him from the game (albeit temporarily) but I tend to favor the idea of Cersei feeling backed into a corner and being the one behind it.

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Littlefinger is one of my favorite characters but he doesn't seem to be concerned with Dany. I think that will be his downfall.

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Tyrion did only trick Pycelle into revealing his allegiance with his whole Myrcella ruse. He did not learn anything about Littlefinger's or Varys' true allegiance. Although he did realize correctly that Littlefinger was pretty much all about personal advancement and greed during their conversation. He did not, however, realize at all how angry and nasty this man can get when you try to use him as piece in your game. Even Tyrion underestimated the extent of Littlefinger's influence, his capability as a plotter, and his determination to remove people from the game he considers as a threat to himself.

And Varys, well, he learned nothing about Varys he did not yet know. For some reason, Varys did not tell Cersei about his plans. Well. He already knew that Varys does not tell Cersei for some reason about Shae, so that trick gave him no new insight into Varys.

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Littlefinger is one of my favorite characters but he doesn't seem to be concerned with Dany. I think that will be his downfall.

Wrong! He has had some special tapestries delivered from King's Landing. Presumably they are tapestries left from the Targ era showing off dragons and the like. He's way ahead of that game.

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Sansa is nowhere near the schemer that Littlefinger is of course, what he does takes a lifetime of experience not to mention a certain inborn talent for it.

But she doesn't need to be that good to bring him down because he suffers from a fatal weakness that no one else can exploit: He loves her mother and in some weird twisted fashion, he loves her too. And no matter how good he is, that will inevitably destroy him once Sansa learns how to use it. It is his Achilles heel, his vulnerability, and his one blind spot that he cannot overcome.

As for Sansa's future, I always took the death of her wolf to mean that her future is no longer tied to the North and to the lineage of Winterfell like the other Starks. In other words, she will no longer be a "Stark."

I do find it very interesting that she is still the wife of Tyrion. I think it would be the ultimate symbol of her journey to pragmatism from the stupid, silly, superficial, idealistic girl to wind up being able to look past the scarred, mangled, dwarf and stay married to him because of his other qualities as well as the fact that through him, she would rule the East. It would be a stretch and a huge surprise . . . but I can see it being the sort of development that would make all sorts of sense from a thematic and character arc point of view. And that would of course also fit with her losing her wolf. She wouldn't be a Stark in the future, she would be a Lion if she sticks with Tyrion . . .

Dennis

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I just can't envision Littlefinger as a ruler, leading the nobility, inspiring the smallfolk, and administering justice.

I doubt Littlefinger would rule in that manner. He'd divide the nobility so that they're focused on their squabbles rather than the overall question of leadership and control the smallfolk through a combination of the nobility and through meritocracy which would in itself act as a check on the power of the nobility. If he can walk the tightrope between the two (and who better than him to strike that balance) then i could see him ruling. As to justice well i imagine it would be favouring whoever granted Littlefinger the biggest advantage. i can see the administration of "justice" as being his main route to power.

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