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Anduin Lothar

Sansa and Littlefinger in ADWD

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GRRM has emphaisized in the past that Sansa has lost her wolf, with the implication being that her future outlook is none too rosy.

Prediction: Before the end of the Series you'll have Sansa warging into the Hound. Who needs a Direwolf when you have a Hound?

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It is a shame there will be no Sansa chapters...

GRRM has emphaisized in the past that Sansa has lost her wolf, with the implication being that her future outlook is none too rosy.

:(

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Regarding Aratan's quote, this has been discussed in the past but I'm not sure if GRRM has implicated (or was meaning to implicate) that Sansa has a grim outlook. GRRM once answered a question about this, saying (IIRC, or words to that effect) that it was an astute observation (to a person noting that Sansa had lost her wolf). However, the connection between "rosy future" and having a wolf is unsure. He also mentioned once that Arya and Sansa have deep issues to work out, seemingly implying they will meet again at some point and talk things through or have a confrontation (or both).

Remember, Arya can be said to have lost her wolf (and her pack), too, indeed none of the Starks has much of a pack left (allthough all of them have various "friends" of often doubtful loyalty - Bran seems best of in this regard). GRRM's remark on Sansa could also indicate that she will have to find a replacement for Lady somehow.

As meta reason for Lady being killed, I think GRRM may have wanted her out of the way for Sansa's captivity in King's Landing. She was to be defenceless there, and thus no place for a big bad protector.

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Taking it back to high-school English levels of analysis, can't the loss of Lady just represent the loss of Sansa's identity as a Northwoman? Before she even gets to King's Landing she wants to fit in as part of that society, even if it means defending Joff and betraying her father. It's only after Ned's death she begins to look critically at her position and realise that the only people who will ever have her back at all times are her family.

She doesn't have the classic Stark trait of unabashed honour and unapologetic honesty, à la Brandon, Ned, Arya, Robb and Jon (to varying degrees). But she does fit perfectly into the Tully mould, right down to being wooed by Littlefinger - and Tullys don't get direwolves.

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Tullys don't get direwolves.

Well done. Now I want to see diretrouts.

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Well done. Now I want to see diretrouts.

:P Now that would be a sight to behold.

Anyway, interesting line of thought from été. Do you see Sansa turning back (to some extent) to her "northern side", illustrated by an increased level of "wargness"? In AFFC, there was the moment when she was helping "Sweetrobin" to cross that bridge and IIRC she felt as if Lady was there with her. In ASOS, there was the old hound from LF's estate who liked her and tried to defend her from Marillion. Since Sansa hasn't done anything of note yet with her warging ability (unlike Bran, Jon, Arya and Robb, to varying degrees), I suspect that this is yet to come. GRRM has emphasised that all the Stark children are wargs and so I think this will play a role in Sansa's storyline at some point.

For someone involved in the Game of thrones (even as a pawn), it would be a very handy ability to be able to warg like Varamyr or Bran can. Think "little birds", but literally. Or handy for assassinations as well, as you can set dogs or horses against their owners at crucial points.

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Anyway, interesting line of thought from été. Do you see Sansa turning back (to some extent) to her "northern side", illustrated by an increased level of "wargness"? In AFFC, there was the moment when she was helping "Sweetrobin" to cross that bridge and IIRC she felt as if Lady was there with her. In ASOS, there was the old hound from LF's estate who liked her and tried to defend her from Marillion. Since Sansa hasn't done anything of note yet with her warging ability (unlike Bran, Jon, Arya and Robb, to varying degrees), I suspect that this is yet to come. GRRM has emphasised that all the Stark children are wargs and so I think this will play a role in Sansa's storyline at some point.

For someone involved in the Game of thrones (even as a pawn), it would be a very handy ability to be able to warg like Varamyr or Bran can. Think "little birds", but literally. Or handy for assassinations as well, as you can set dogs or horses against their owners at crucial points.

They're all wargs? That's really interesting, I haven't come across that titbit before. Maybe that's part of why her loss of Lady is so significant - she never had a chance to explore that ability, since all the other POV Starks have warged their direwolves. Even Bran needed Summer as the starting point for his warg training, so cool as it would be I don't see Sansa's warging going anywhere.

Well done. Now I want to see diretrouts.

:mellow: That would be AMAZING.

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The above threads talking about Littlefinger slavering around Sansa, made me think about something that bothered me in AFfC.

Why would Sansa kiss Littlefinger? Is she just playing along with the daugher role or does she really believe he is a kind and generous man? I don't expect an answer. It's just Ick,

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The above threads talking about Littlefinger slavering around Sansa, made me think about something that bothered me in AFfC.

Why would Sansa kiss Littlefinger? Is she just playing along with the daugher role or does she really believe he is a kind and generous man? I don't expect an answer. It's just Ick,

I don't think she's playing into with his fantasy, I think she's flat-out doing what she's told. Littlefinger is disappointed that her kisses are "dutiful", but Sansa's not interested in being his daughter much less his girlfriend.

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Why would Sansa kiss Littlefinger? Is she just playing along with the daugher role or does she really believe he is a kind and generous man?

Well she doesn't kiss him. He kisses her on occasion, and he is irritated that she kisses so "dutifully".

BUT she does think of LF with fondness during AFFC. I can't remember the quote but she thinks he can be funny and kind. It's just that people kinda want to gloss over that and imply she hates him. She doesn't. She's actually extremely grateful to him. She knows Winterfell is burnt to the ground, her family is all dead and the Crown wants her dead. And he's given her another identity and hidden her away from danger. She knows he's done bad things but she thinks she's done bad things too - she feels guilt over Ser Dontos and tremendous guilt over her testimony against Marillion.

I think people are being too quick to embrace the whole "Sansa's gonna stab LF in the back and rule" idea. Too predictable, too straightforward, too out-of-character for Sansa, who, despite LF's tutoring, is still a little, naive girl.

Yes, and she's also someone who seems to be under some form of Stockholm Syndrome. Whilst I can imagine her being kidnapped away from LF, I honestly can't imagine herself trying to kill literally the only person she has left in the world. She's petrified of even opening her mouth in front of other people in case her true identity is revealed, and it's a very valid fear to have. She's really clinging to LF and I don't really blame her. I don't think she's even turned 14 yet, has she? (She was 12 marrying Tyrion, and I don't think it's been more than a year since.)

Too all those who thinks Sansa will excel at plotting -- did you find any evidence that she has even started to grow such a skill?

This is pure fandom fantasy to imagine that at this point in Sansa's development. So she grasps LF's plots, so what? She couldn't plot getting a rattle from a baby right now. And with only 2 more books she can appear in, she'd have to have Super!Accelerated!Development when she does return to get to that point. And that ain't gonna happen - we're going to have to wade through the Harry the Heir stuff first.

I can see it being the sort of development that would make all sorts of sense from a thematic and character arc point of view.

I always thought GRRM was headed towards Tyrion/Sansa. I'm not a shipper, but I was always suprised that other fans were so horrified by it yet meanwhile cross their fingers the Hound will pop up and growl at her and she'll swoon into his arms.

I always thought it was kinda obvious that her arc was, if anything, superficial girl starts to finally devalue beauty and see through ugliness, and be bumped off her high horse. As I said, people have latched onto GRRM's Beauty and the Beast comments to mean the Hound, but I was perplexed that no-one noticed the ugly guy that GRRM, oh you know, married her off to.

And they've been married a year and no mutterings of any dissolution or annulment or anything. It boggles the mind that I never see the slightest hint of that outcome on these forums! It's as likely as any other outcome for Sansa.

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I see Sansa as becoming Cercei exactly - completely jaded in every way.

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I see Sansa as becoming Cercei exactly - completely jaded in every way.

There's an inherent goodness and innocence to Sansa that Cersei never had, even as a child. She hurt baby Tyrion, it's strongly suggested that she pushed a girl down a well for looking at Jaime, she manipulated Jaime into joining the KG so she could have him nearby and all to herself. I can't see Sansa doing anything of the sort. While she may (and probably should) become more cynical, she's not driven by a desire for personal power and glory the way Cersei is.

It will be interesting to see how Sansa gets dragged back into the thick of things. I doubt the Harry the Heir business will pan out as LF hopes.

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If it's between Sansa and LF, I'd choose LF any day. After Catelyn and Joffery's deaths, the only one left I want to die painfully is Sansa.

She's dumb and gullible. I don't see her ever besting LF even on his worst day.

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Taking it back to high-school English levels of analysis, can't the loss of Lady just represent the loss of Sansa's identity as a Northwoman? Before she even gets to King's Landing she wants to fit in as part of that society, even if it means defending Joff and betraying her father. It's only after Ned's death she begins to look critically at her position and realise that the only people who will ever have her back at all times are her family.

She doesn't have the classic Stark trait of unabashed honour and unapologetic honesty, à la Brandon, Ned, Arya, Robb and Jon (to varying degrees). But she does fit perfectly into the Tully mould, right down to being wooed by Littlefinger - and Tullys don't get direwolves.

Actually I've maintained this for YEARS but seemed to have been the only voice in the wilderness. Glad to have another join me.

I've always thought that eventually Sansa will stay married to Tyrion thus becoming a Lannister and technically a lion, not a wolf. It would make sense on all sorts of thematic levels as you've pointed out completing the character arc of Sansa very fittingly. At the end of the day, I doubt Littlefinger's plans will come to fruition exactly as planned and Sansa is going to stay married to Tyrion.

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It's interesting to conjecture where Sansa and Littlefinger fits into the overall scheme of the story.

We know that about the first half of Dance with Dragons will parallel the events and timeline of Feast for Crows. However, the second half will advance the storyline for all the characters forward and include some resolution of various plot arcs from Feast for Crows. What I'm trying to figure out is how that is going to happen when we have no viewpoints from Brienne or Sansa. Of course, we can certainly advance the story in those areas by looking at events from other points of view and in the case of Sansa it may even become necessary to shift outside her perspective if she is ultimately going to pull a fast one and turn the tables on Littlefinger as some have speculated to preserve surprise for the readers.

I just have a feeling that Sansa and Littlefinger's plot line won't progress as much as we think in Dance with Dragons leaving only about 2 books for Sansa to make her impact felt.

At this point, I just kinda feel like the two of them have shifted to the periphery of the main storylines and am increasingly forgetting what the point of their particular plot arc is? Between Dany at Mereen, the mess in King's Landing, the intrigue in Dorne, everybody converging on Tyrion, Jon and Stannis on the Wall, Bran beyond the Wall, I find myself caring the least about what Littlefinger is doing in the Vale.

Who knows, maybe the whole point is that GRRM wants Littlefinger eventually removed from the board and wants Sansa to be a part of that and that won't take too long to flesh out hence ignoring them in Dance.

Dennis

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Trio;

Sansa is grateful to LF to some extent, but she is also wary about him. She learns to literally say what he wants to hear (or what she think he want to hear, anyway) and the whole kissing business is something she clearly finds rather creepy. Nor does she seem enthusiastic about his wedding plans for her - I don't think she wants to marry anyone at this stage, period. Sansa's relationship with LF is ambiguous - he is her protector and safety net on the one hand, but he is also frightening to her on the other side.

It's not terribly different from her relationship with Tyrion, allthough she isn't quite as cold with LF as she usually was with Tyrion.

Sword of the morning; remember LF comments about the war of the 3 queens? He seems to more know than us, readers. I wouldn't be surprised if his next moves are already planned and he may have an alliance with Dany in mind, at least as a possibility depending on how well she does once she lands. Expect LF to side with the winners and be rewarded for it - and Sansa would be a nice price for Dany's faction, wouldn't she?

I agree with Eté that Sansa doesn't seem to be like even young Cersei at all. Cersei always had a cruel streak and she was jealous of man and ambitious, quite unlike dreamy and delicate Sansa. As of AFFC, while some of the things surrounding "sweetrobin" and his risky medication are raising alarm bells, Sansa still is pretty much a softboiled egg who seems to want everybody to be happy, and for the rest is mostly afraid she will be found out. And I like her that way. ;)

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At this point, I just kinda feel like the two of them have shifted to the periphery of the main storylines and am increasingly forgetting what the point of their particular plot arc is? Between Dany at Mereen, the mess in King's Landing, the intrigue in Dorne, everybody converging on Tyrion, Jon and Stannis on the Wall, Bran beyond the Wall, I find myself caring the least about what Littlefinger is doing in the Vale.

Who knows, maybe the whole point is that GRRM wants Littlefinger eventually removed from the board and wants Sansa to be a part of that and that won't take too long to flesh out hence ignoring them in Dance.

It's difficult to speculate without knowing where the story is going to go. I suspect that it's at least partly to put some clear blue water between LF and the Lannisters, and he's kept his nose clean during their fall from favour.

After brokering the Tyrell marriage, he helped them to assassinate Joffrey, setting up the Tyrell-Lannister power struggle. His comment about the Three Queens (Cersei, Margaery, Olenna presumably) suggested that his sympathy for either side is limited. LF will return to the fray when it is most to his advantage. He's on his own side, or rather the side of whoever would benefit him most. I suspect we'll see him return to the fray in the furore surrounding Cersei with some ace up his sleeve, if not in Dance then early in Winds.

Sansa's POVs in AFfC also showed us LF's interest in her, Robert's infirmity and the plot to dispose of him, and a closer look at tensions within the Vale. Presumably those are all loose ends that need tying up somewhere. I hope it's not been a wasted detour: I like Sansa.

I agree with Eté that Sansa doesn't seem to be like even young Cersei at all. Cersei always had a cruel streak and she was jealous of man and ambitious, quite unlike dreamy and delicate Sansa. As of AFFC, while some of the things surrounding "sweetrobin" and his risky medication are raising alarm bells, Sansa still is pretty much a softboiled egg who seems to want everybody to be happy, and for the rest is mostly afraid she will be found out. And I like her that way. ;)

Same :) That said, she's more repulsed by the prospect of marrying Sweetrobin than her marriage to Tyrion. As reserved as she was with him, she had just lost her childhood home, mother and brothers in a short space of time, and was entirely at the mercy of Joff, Cersei and now Tyrion (even though he always treated her well).

But unlike Cersei, she's resigned to the fact that she'll be married off according to the advantage of her guardians, and I found her, "No one loves me, they only want my claim to Winterfell," teenage angsting really rather sad. I do hope she and Tyrion reconcile, whether or not they stay married.

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I also hope Tyrion and Sansa will reconcile at some point (would be bad news for LF if he is still around then). I do think a continuing marriage is very unlikely though, a divorce would likely be part of a reconciliation. Sansa may respect Tyrion to some extent but to marry him willingly?

As for the 3 queens, Olenna and Margaery are the same side, by all appearances. LF is likely aware of Dany and what she is doing to some extent, and I would include her in the 3 queens. Having played the Lannisters against the Starks and the Tyrells against the Lannisters, he can now possibly switch to playing with yet another side (allthough he could get burned in that case, as tends to happen when "dancing with dragons" - and he won't expect Tyrion to turn up again).

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I also hope Tyrion and Sansa will reconcile at some point (would be bad news for LF if he is still around then). I do think a continuing marriage is very unlikely though, a divorce would likely be part of a reconciliation. Sansa may respect Tyrion to some extent but to marry him willingly?

There's no such thing as divorce. The only way marriages end is by annulment, which can only be granted by the High Septon. Remember him? The one who's got Margery and Cersei captive and who's whipping Osmund Kettleblack to death?

Yeah, I'm not sure of their chances.....

Even if Tyrion somehow finds a way to bribe/blackmail him into granting such a thing I'm not sure when this would happen, given that Sansa has only 2 books to appear in, and there's going to be a shitload of main plot and battles galore, all ramping up to an end game.

So we're supposed to want GRRM to take a detour in the middle of all that for an annulment sub-plot? To be honest, as a reader, I'd be pissed off. If GRRM wanted the marriage ended that much, I'd rather he just killed one of them off in a cool dramatic fashion, than waste time on some stupid legal technicality bullshit storyline.

But my point is that I don't think at all that GRRM wants the marriage ended. I don't think he would have married them in the first place if it was so irrelevant that they then go "Shall we get it annulled then?" "Oh yes please" "OK - I've just bribed the High Septon so you're free" "OK thanks, no hard feelings, eh? See ya"

I just can't see a place for any such storyline in the books, y'know? Realistically.

I've always conjectured that the Mad Mouse is going to recognise her and kidnap her at some point, and will haul her to Tyrion, who is with Dany and just landed, with the rationale that he has more chance of getting gold from her (as far as he is aware) devoted and distraught husband than the Council (Lannisters always pay their debts!).

And the situation with Tyrion will resolve itself one way or another from the limbo it's in right now. And Sansa will become part of the main action again, as opposed to doing nothing but listening to petty Vale matters. She may even form a bond with Dany, who never seems to have had a female friend. Become a sort of Lady in Waiting, advising Dany on how to look and act less like a half naked Dothraki!

OR she could be made to stay in the Vale and play romance games with Harry for the next two books. :rolleyes:

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I do hope that GRRM can work Sansa into ADWD at least with someone else's POV.

I believe Littlefinger has forgotten what made him successful in the first place. In Kings Landing no one thought him a threat(except Tyrion and Varys). So he was able to plot behind the scenes with others unaware. Now he's in the spotlight and I have no doubt that he can handle himself but now with so many balls in the air has he lost sight of Sansa does he consider he a threat? I don't know how people think she hasn't learned from Littlefinger yes she is a novice but she has SweetRobin and the Eyrie staff wrapped around her little finger. They come to her when they need something they trust her. Littlefinger even delegates daily tasks to her just like how he started on his way to Master of Coin. I believe she will start small most likely change SweetRobins poison keeping him alive prolonging littlefingers plans. She will also start seeing who she can use as pawn such as the one that she slipped Jon Snow's name to. Rumor's are a powerful thing I am sure Littlefinger will try spin them for his benefit it just depends who will spin it better. I just think it will be Sansa shes now one of the little people the non threat.

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