Jump to content

A Clash of Kings Spoilers: The Starks and the War


Chirios

Recommended Posts

I was reading this: http://www.towerofthehand.com/blog/2011/04/21-war-of-five-kings-lannisters/index.html, it's a summary of the Lannister's strategy during the War of Five Kings and it got me thinking: Could the Starks have won? The North is relatively poor, and without appropriate funds it's not possible to continue the war. IMO, even if the

Red Wedding

hadn't happened, chances are the Lannister's would have been able to beat the Starks simply by outlasting them.

But what if the Starks had marched on Lannisport? What if they'd taken the bulk of their army and marched hard for Casterly Rock? If they captured, or, even better, raided Casterly Rock, they'd have been be able to effectively destroy the main source of Lannister funding, and then fled back to their own lands. But, there's another problem. Tywin anticipated that effectively when he marched on Harrenhal. He would've been able to know, probably before they reached Golden Tooth, that the Starks were heading towards Casterly Rock.

I don't know. If you were Robb Stark, minus the obvious stupidity, what would you have done after capturing Riverrun?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was reading this: http://www.towerofthehand.com/blog/2011/04/21-war-of-five-kings-lannisters/index.html, it's a summary of the Lannister's strategy during the War of Five Kings and it got me thinking: Could the Starks have won? The North is relatively poor, and without appropriate funds it's not possible to continue the war. IMO, even if the

Red Wedding

hadn't happened, chances are the Lannister's would have been able to beat the Starks simply by outlasting them.

But what if the Starks had marched on Lannisport? What if they'd taken the bulk of their army and marched hard for Casterly Rock? If they captured, or, even better, raided Casterly Rock, they'd have been be able to effectively destroy the main source of Lannister funding, and then fled back to their own lands. But, there's another problem. Tywin anticipated that effectively when he marched on Harrenhal. He would've been able to know, probably before they reached Golden Tooth, that the Starks were heading towards Casterly Rock.

I don't know. If you were Robb Stark, minus the obvious stupidity, what would you have done after capturing Riverrun?

Had Robb's plan worked and he managed to trap Tywin so he couldn't get to Kings Landing in time to stop Stannis, and Stannis had won there, then they could have worked something out. The Lannisters would have lost quite a bit and been trapped. The problem would be that in order to avoid Stannis coming after the north as well, Robb would have had to lay down the crown. Would they have been willing to go back to the status quo, with Robb as Lord of Winterfell and the North, and Edmure as Lord of Riverrun and the Trident? They would have had to, I would think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Immediately after? Put a stop to the King in the North bollocks and formed an alliance with Renly.

I'd also have taken away command of the foot from Bolton after the fiasco of the battle at the green fork. That isn't because of knowing what happens later but because he squandered a large part of the foot needlessly. The first time i read the books i couldn't understand why the battle was fought and in my re-reads i still can't. My understanding was that Robb felt he couldn't beat Tywin head on with his full force so he decided to take on Jaime instead using a suprise attack. To keep Tywin in position he would send his foot down the east bank of the green fork to make Tywin think the whole army was heading towards him. I've no idea what possible advantage could be gained from attacking Tywin with a reduced army if the full army was thought to be insufficient. That it had been established that Tywin wouldn't be caught with his pants down the tactic of marching overnight to get into position for attack was a poor move as well. All that manouver accomplished was making sure the Stark host was exhausted by the time the fighting started. Bolton was a fool or he was already in Tywin's pocket. Either way he'd have command stripped from him.

I'd also chop off Jaime's head and give it to Karstark to put in his chamber pot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd also have taken away command of the foot from Bolton after the fiasco of the battle at the green fork. That isn't because of knowing what happens later but because he squandered a large part of the foot needlessly. The first time i read the books i couldn't understand why the battle was fought and in my re-reads i still can't.
Because Bolton was turned at that point; either turned directly or thinking about turning. He went and wiped out the greater chunk of that army because he knew it would fail.

And after that, Bolton didn't command anything. There was no further fighting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Edmure hadn't been such a dumb-ass, then Rob would have destroyed Tywin's army in the west and Stannis would have taken Kings Landing. If that happens then the vengeance for the death of Eddard has been dealt, and (if I'm Rob) he would have retreated back to the North and waited for Stannis to attack Moat Cailin where he would bleed the idiot to death... (He would obviously abandon Edmund and the Riverlords to their fate)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And after that, Bolton didn't command anything. There was no further fighting.

There was Robb's invasion of the Lannister lands and quite a few clashes. I got the impression Bolton remained in command of a larger portion of the total strength than just his own men. He was responsible for sending off Glover and others to be destroyed in the battle of duskendale so i always supposed he still had command of the foot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Man, some of you guys are vicious. Chop off Jaime's head, knowing that means you've just sentenced your sister to the same fate (and both of your sisters, as far as you know)? Leave the loyal riverlords to their fate, the riverlords who declared for you when you aren't even their lord and who fought and died for you? Man, if Robb had done that, Bolton could have made his move to take over and frankly, if I was the northern lords, I might have gone for that. If Robb would abandon all of the Riverlands, who else is he going to abandon just to get his way?

Anyway it's tough to say. I don't know that I would say Robb COULDN'T have won, but after Stannis was defeated and Renly killed, it became much more difficult. Balon Greyjoy made it worse by taking much of the north. Keep in mind he didn't just have the north, he also had the Riverlands, and at the time he thought it was at least possible he'd get the aid of the Vale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Edmure hadn't been such a dumb-ass, then Rob would have destroyed Tywin's army in the west and Stannis would have taken Kings Landing. If that happens then the vengeance for the death of Eddard has been dealt, and (if I'm Rob) he would have retreated back to the North and waited for Stannis to attack Moat Cailin where he would bleed the idiot to death... (He would obviously abandon Edmund and the Riverlords to their fate)

It was Robb's and Blachfish's fault, not Edmure's. As commander, your subordinates must have clear instructions from you so there is no possibility that your plan gets screwed up. Obviously that wasn't the case, if they didn't trust Edmure to know the whole plan, they should have had someone more capable in command.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh no, the second Renly died Robb was screwed. Stannis would never have allowed him to say he was King in the North, and probably would've punished him even for claiming it.

The current theme seems to be: Robb's best chance was for Edmure not to be Edmure. Maybe that was what Robb's biggest mistake was: not letting Edmure in on the plan. If he had done that, Edmure might've been able to trick Twyin into moving his forces wrongly, and then Robb would've been able to trap the old man, and sue for peace with the Queen.

Whether or not she would have accepted it is another problem.

Also, what if he had sent men to the Iron Islands immediately? We know that

they want to rebel

but he doesn't. The Ironmen have one of the largest navies in Westeros, why didn't he ask that they raid Lannisport?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which was incredibly stupid from Balons point of view; he attacked the only possible ally who could have helped him in securing the independence of Iron Islands; every other fraction wanted to unify entire continent and Balon knew from the rebellion how war with seven kingdoms will end. Also, somehow i doubt that with their culture Balon would hold groudge against Starks for slaying his sons in battle; even if - then why would he support the son of Robert?

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Edmure divide Tullys forces into smaller units to fight the pillagers? What was fighting under Robb was only Stark northern forces and Freys; it seems he never was truly strenghtened by riverlords. Combined power of two houses would have been easily an equal enemy to Lannisters and Kings Landing forces, even without taking into account Stannis.

Also I think that Robb counted on Arryns support when he marched southwards. At the beggining everything seemed quite well - power of Starks, Tullys and Arryns would be definitly too much for Lannisters, and his goals initially were not far reaching. It was only later when it came cashing down - Edmure dispersing his army, Arryns not moving a finger, Balon being an idiot, and this unfortunate King in the North idea, which could not be turnd down and made peace impossible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which was incredibly stupid from Balons point of view; he attacked the only possible ally who could have helped him in securing the independence of Iron Islands; every other fraction wanted to unify entire continent and Balon knew from the rebellion how war with seven kingdoms will end. Also, somehow i doubt that with their culture Balon would hold groudge against Starks for slaying his sons in battle; even if - then why would he support the son of Robert?

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Edmure divide Tullys forces into smaller units to fight the pillagers? What was fighting under Robb was only Stark northern forces and Freys; it seems he never was truly strenghtened by riverlords. Combined power of two houses would have been easily an equal enemy to Lannisters and Kings Landing forces, even without taking into account Stannis.

Also I think that Robb counted on Arryns support when he marched southwards. At the beggining everything seemed quite well - power of Starks, Tullys and Arryns would be definitly too much for Lannisters, and his goals initially were not far reaching. It was only later when it came cashing down - Edmure dispersing his army, Arryns not moving a finger, Balon being an idiot, and this unfortunate King in the North idea, which could not be turnd down and made peace impossible.

Yeah, but Balon didn't support Robert's son. He didn't actively continue rebelling because it would have been stupid, he was beaten and knew it. But once the War started, Balon saw an opportunity and took it. He wasn't supporting Joffrey though. He wanted to be a king himself. He "backed Joffrey (and Robert)" from after the Rebellion until Clash solely because he felt he had no option, he'd be destroyed otherwise. Different story with Robb.

I'm not certain on who Robb was fighting with, but my understanding was he did have men from the Riverlands with him even beyond the Freys up until he decided to go back north. Some were sent to defend their holdings but some remained, I believe.

Really, Robb was in pretty good shape against the Lannisters until Stannis lost. The Greyjoys made things more difficult but he might have had a good shot at beating just the Lannisters. Problem is, once the Tyrells, some of the Baratheons (whoever didn't go with Stannis), and to a lesser extent the Dornish threw in with Joffrey, well, now it's an entirely different story. Even if Greyjoy had sat around and done nothing, that puts Robb at a disadvantage with the Vale not moving.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think Robb got a lot of direct support in his campaigns from the Tully's, but that's not the same as not being a help. If they lose, he loses his supply lines.

I don't think that Rob could have won the war, per se. I think that, had Tywin not been able to defeat Stannis, the north could have come to an accomodation with Stannis. Once the Greyjoy invasion took place, Rob was pretty much hosed for offensive engagements, no matter what.

I do think that, rather than saying "hold Riverrun", they could have said "hold Riverrun and let Tywin go by - we want him to chase us"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I forget at what point in the campaign a lot of the river banners dispersed to their holdings...

but that really made things hard to control.

It was the beginning of ACOK.

Really, Robb was in pretty good shape against the Lannisters until Stannis lost. The Greyjoys made things more difficult but he might have had a good shot at beating just the Lannisters. Problem is, once the Tyrells, some of the Baratheons (whoever didn't go with Stannis), and to a lesser extent the Dornish threw in with Joffrey, well, now it's an entirely different story. Even if Greyjoy had sat around and done nothing, that puts Robb at a disadvantage with the Vale not moving.

After the Tyrells declared for Joffrey, Joffrey's cause was as good as won, regardless of the Vale. Because even if the Greyjoys had remained a non-entity, and Robb had not married Jeyne Westerling, and even if Bolton remained loyal, the Redwyne fleet would have opened the North to attack, and the Tyrell strength, which by itself is already nearly equal to the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, would have been more than enough to pummel the North. It would be like a siege of Dragonstone situation, except because the entire north is being warred over, slightly bloodier.

And this ignores the fact that Robb is obligated to defend the Riverlands as well, as part of his kingdom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO Robb lost the war after the marriage alliance with the Tyrells. Had Tyrion lost the battle at Kings Landing the Tyrells wouldn't have been able to swear allegiance to the Lannisters. So the time period for a change, or another decision, which could have let Robb win is somewhere inbetween leaving Moat Cailin and Tyrion doing his thang.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robb should've had three of the seven major houses under his command. Granted the Riverlands and the Vale seem like pretty weak regions, but even if the North is sparsely populated and relatively poor, it's still by far the largest "kingdom" and presumably at least as powerful as the Reach and the Westerlands. I think early on it seemed like Robb had reasonable odds of getting alliances with Stannis and Balon as well, and the Dornish seemed to intend to remain neutral (they hate Lannisters and Martels), at least until an eventual more subtle Targaryen plot. Honestly, if not for Balon idiocy, Lysa's lack of honor (doesn't exactly live up to the Tully family motto) and Roose Bolton's lack of Northern chivalry, Robb easily had the war won, imo. As for the Red Wedding, that seemed like something completely atypical in Westerosi history, something even worse than what Aegon did to Rickard and Brandon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robb should've had three of the seven major houses under his command. Granted the Riverlands and the Vale seem like pretty weak regions, but even if the North is sparsely populated and relatively poor, it's still by far the largest "kingdom" and presumably at least as powerful as the Reach and the Westerlands. I think early on it seemed like Robb had reasonable odds of getting alliances with Stannis and Balon as well, and the Dornish seemed to intend to remain neutral (they hate Lannisters and Martels), at least until an eventual more subtle Targaryen plot. Honestly, if not for Balon idiocy, Lysa's lack of honor (doesn't exactly live up to the Tully family motto) and Roose Bolton's lack of Northern chivalry, Robb easily had the war won, imo. As for the Red Wedding, that seemed like something completely atypical in Westerosi history, something even worse than what Aegon did to Rickard and Brandon.

Actually, the north is not as powerful as the Reach or the Westerlands, not by a long shot. The problem of sparse population grows out of the problem that despite its size, it has neither the natural resources of the Westerlands, or the fertility or strategic location of the Reach, and due to this, no way to attract traders to bring in wealth. Their large size, if anything, only makes them around as powerful as the Riverlands, because it's the poorest and least habited part of Westeros. Balon and Lysa did also cause a great deal of Robb's misfortune, but the point is, they did cause Robb misfortune. As Littlefinger put it, 'Even the humblest of pawns sometimes refuse to make the moves you've planned for them.' Balon didn't want to help the North, he wanted to conquer it. Lysa was entirely beholden to Littlefinger, who had a vested interest in the fall of the North. Roose Bolton would rather be Warden of the North than a good and loyal bannerman. These circumstances might have been out of Robb's control, but they caused his loss anyways. Sometimes, everything does go wrong. Sometimes, life just hates you. Sometimes, a person is destined not to win. It happens.

And yes, the Red Wedding was completely atypical, though knowing Lord Frey, they probably should have seen it coming. That said, due to the factors mentioned above, Robb's cause was already lost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the old what if debate...

what if the Vale would have joined their forces? if bronze yohn would have been able to convince lysa? that would have been extra 25K+ men at the roose bolton area with the northern forces they could have taken on tywin forces, add robb's host with the other riverlords forces then (at the battle of the fords they had 12K) no reason why they couldn't just march to KL

what if robb would have been able to draw tywin to the west? well I for one don't think he would have won, robb had 5K cavalry with him tywin had more plus foot soldier I don't think even the area of combat could have changed that. if robb would have called for edmure to bring some fresh foot soldier over the golden tooth and move on to lannisport that would have changed the matters

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...