Why Jaime deserves to die (Storm Of Swords Spoilers)

[Elrick]

In my opinion unCat's hatred towards Jaime is justified comes from Bolton saying Jaime sends his regards, he threw Bran out the window and pathetically claims that he was spying on him fucking his sister. In my opinion these are all good reasons that gives Catelyn good reason to go after Jaime just as much as the Frey's.

[alguien]

Stoneheart thinks Jaime was behind the Red Wedding.

Granted, she has very good reason to do so because of Roose Bolton's comments--which were the last sane thing she heard before she went mad and died, but we know that this is incorrect.

Still, can't blame her. The rest of the reasons are quite valid.

[Alexia]

Catelyn was entirely justified in going after Jaime, IMO. While she was incorrect in believing that he was behind the Red Wedding (with good reason to believe he was) he did later break his oath never to take up arms against Tullys by leading an army against them, threatening to throw Edmure Tully's unborn child with a trebuchet, taking Riverrun on behalf of the King and personally turning it over to an unholy alliance of Lannister/Frey (also known as his relatives), and taking Lord Edmure and Queen Jeyne as hostages to Casterly Rock, where Edmure is supposed to live the rest of his days.

He is an oathbreaker and an active enemy general who is hostile to House Tully.

[iamthedave]

threatening to throw Edmure Tully's unborn child with a trebuchet

I laughed hysterically when I read that line. It's the funniest thing in all of the books.

Everyone in these books deserves to die. I can't think of anyone who hasn't done something to someone that warrants their death from that person's perspective or the perspective of their friends and relatives. Maybe Jon.

[Sivin]

Catelyn was entirely justified in going after Jaime, IMO. While she was incorrect in believing that he was behind the Red Wedding (with good reason to believe he was) he did later break his oath never to take up arms against Tullys by leading an army against them, threatening to throw Edmure Tully's unborn child with a trebuchet, taking Riverrun on behalf of the King and personally turning it over to an unholy alliance of Lannister/Frey (also known as his relatives), and taking Lord Edmure and Queen Jeyne as hostages to Casterly Rock, where Edmure is supposed to live the rest of his days.

He is an oathbreaker and an active enemy general who is hostile to House Tully.

Yeah, he's an oathbreaker. But not for those reasons... He never actually took up arms against house Tully. The army was already there when he arrived. All Jaime did was show up and threaten the blackfish, which I don't think is an actual violation of his deal with cat.

Also, when Cat released him from the cell she did so with the knowledge that he had done horrible thins (I can't remember whether she knew that he threw Bran), but as far as I'm concerned Jaime was absolved by all of his pre-release crimes (at least those involving the Stark family) the moment that Cat let him leave. And I don't think he ever actually did anything wrong after that.

Totally IMO though...

[Faint]

Sometimes I feel that when Jaime finally dies in the story, the number of posts on this forum will be reduced in half.

[AutomatedTeller]

Stoneheart isnt' Catelyn and she (it) is evil. She's basically a wight.

How else do you explain killing Brienne, who is one of (if not the only) absolutely good character in this series?

If JOFFREY had made someone make that choice (kill someone you like or hang), that would be further proof of his sadism

[zmflavius]

Stoneheart isnt' Catelyn and she (it) is evil. She's basically a wight.

How else do you explain killing Brienne, who is one of (if not the only) absolutely good character in this series?

The thing is though, the why is just as important, if not more than the what.

Lady Stoneheart didn't know what Brienne was about. What she knew was that Brienne had blundered into her hands, carrying a red-tinged valyrian steel sword, with a scabbard covered with lions, with a squire tagging along from House Payne, who used to squire for the Imp, with a companion in the service of Randyll Tarly, no friend of hers, and a note signed by Tommen, saying she was about her business. Frankly, if I were in Stoneheart's situation, I would also think that she'd betrayed me, and would have had her hanged on the basis of being a lion, which is doubly bad when you consider how she swore an oath of loyalty to Catelyn. It'd be like if you were a member of a Kingsguard, and was checking in on the king, only to find his throat slit, and some person next to him covered in blood and holding his body. What would you assume?

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I can't really blame Cat for her hatred of Jaime.Since for all she knows Jaime was behind the Red Wedding. Also doesn't her hatred extend to all Lannisters, not just Jaime.

Also i don't think you need to post that these are ASOS spoilers. only thing you need to do that with is ADWD.

[iamthedave]

The thing is though, the why is just as important, if not more than the what.

Lady Stoneheart didn't know what Brienne was about. What she knew was that Brienne had blundered into her hands, carrying a red-tinged valyrian steel sword, with a scabbard covered with lions, with a squire tagging along from House Payne, who used to squire for the Imp, with a companion in the service of Randyll Tarly, no friend of hers, and a note signed by Tommen, saying she was about her business. Frankly, if I were in Stoneheart's situation, I would also think that she'd betrayed me, and would have had her hanged on the basis of being a lion, which is doubly bad when you consider how she swore an oath of loyalty to Catelyn. It'd be like if you were a member of a Kingsguard, and was checking in on the king, only to find his throat slit, and some person next to him covered in blood and holding his body. What would you assume?

At risk of necroing a dead thread...

It's presentation. Without going into those long, complex arguments, the way it looks and the way it's presented are different. Martin clearly uses the treatment of Brienne to put Stoneheart in the position of a bad guy. In no way do I think we're intended to believe Brienne deserves what's happening to her. Or perhaps I should say I don't believe that Martin feels that way (I don't believe that he writes hoping his readers will take to a certain view, but I do think his views come out in the writing, if that makes sense).

In that scene I think Stoneheart comes across as one of the most unambiguously evil characters in the setting, just because of the lead-in to it that shows Brienne at her most heroic, and all the rest of it. We'll see if Martin switches again and puts Cat back in as a POV character perhaps, or has a POV of someone near to her so we can see the positive side of Stoneheart. For now, though, I feel she's positioned as a 'bad guy'. Especially after what happened to Brienne.

[zmflavius]

At risk of necroing a dead thread...

It's presentation. Without going into those long, complex arguments, the way it looks and the way it's presented are different. Martin clearly uses the treatment of Brienne to put Stoneheart in the position of a bad guy. In no way do I think we're intended to believe Brienne deserves what's happening to her. Or perhaps I should say I don't believe that Martin feels that way (I don't believe that he writes hoping his readers will take to a certain view, but I do think his views come out in the writing, if that makes sense).

In that scene I think Stoneheart comes across as one of the most unambiguously evil characters in the setting, just because of the lead-in to it that shows Brienne at her most heroic, and all the rest of it. We'll see if Martin switches again and puts Cat back in as a POV character perhaps, or has a POV of someone near to her so we can see the positive side of Stoneheart. For now, though, I feel she's positioned as a 'bad guy'. Especially after what happened to Brienne.

Well, I don't think the thread's dead.

That said,

Yes, she is presented evilly. But this does lead us into the debate about morality in that other thread, over who is most evil. I did notice that quite a few people selected Tywin, and he is a mean bastard (figuratively). But just as many people named him most evil because he was a magnificent bastard, and while the side he plays for is presented as evil, and he has chalked up quite a few evil actions, to name him evil because he's a schemer is as patently unfair as naming Stoneheart evil. She is presented as evil, but under the circumstances, she behaved perfectly reasonably. Like Tywin, she is driven by a desire to avenge what she perceives (fairly, but not completely accurately) as wrongs done to her, her family, her house, and her cause. She is treated evilly, but she is also clearly a madwoman who believes that almost her entire immediate family has been murdered, and has not long ago undergone a incredibly traumatic experience. Due to this, her ruthlessness seems almost justified, but is hardly worse than Tywin's level of ruthlessness, against the Reynes, the Tarbecks, and all others who insulted house Lannister. And as a final point, what about the rest of the BwB, who before the arrival of Stoneheart, were doing the same thing?

Of course, I admit that going to this conclusion requires that a reader examine her actions from not just Brienne's point of view, but also from Stoneheart's, and attempting to put ourselves in her shoes, something which generally isn't done when reading a first-person narrative. However, IMO, you cannot really read Martin's books without doing this.

[Kaitscralt]

Just because it is justified in Catelyn's eyes does not mean that it has to be justified in the readers eyes. That's the benefit of having knowledge from both sides of the story. So we can be empathetic towards Lady Stoneheart's vengeance quest, but if you want Jaime to die for his acts then that's solely on you. :)

[Red Wedding]

Everyone in these books deserves to die. I can't think of anyone who hasn't done something to someone that warrants their death from that person's perspective or the perspective of their friends and relatives. Maybe Jon.

Not even Jon. Just think of Gilly's and Mance Rayder's babys. (;

[AutomatedTeller]

I think there's a considerable difference between "deserving to die because of what other characters think of you" and "deserving to die because the reader thinks they do"

I mean, from Cersei's point of view, pretty much anyone who isn't her or her children deserve to die, either for opposing her or to keep her from dying.

I think you can make legitimate arguments that Jaime deserves death. If you forgive his killing of Aerys, which I think can be done, he's still guilty of adultery with his sister plus attempted murder of Bran plus breaking his vows as a Kingsguard (by having sex at all, to say nothing of being a father 3 times) I don't know, but I'd think that the incestuous adultery oathbreaking is grounds for death.

Morally, of course, he's at least partly responsible for the entire mess (for the incestuous adultery with the queen and trying to cover it up)

[Elrick]

The thing is though, the why is just as important, if not more than the what.

Lady Stoneheart didn't know what Brienne was about. What she knew was that Brienne had blundered into her hands, carrying a red-tinged valyrian steel sword, with a scabbard covered with lions, with a squire tagging along from House Payne, who used to squire for the Imp, with a companion in the service of Randyll Tarly, no friend of hers, and a note signed by Tommen, saying she was about her business. Frankly, if I were in Stoneheart's situation, I would also think that she'd betrayed me, and would have had her hanged on the basis of being a lion, which is doubly bad when you consider how she swore an oath of loyalty to Catelyn. It'd be like if you were a member of a Kingsguard, and was checking in on the king, only to find his throat slit, and some person next to him covered in blood and holding his body. What would you assume?

I believe UnCatelyn knew that sword was connected to Ned's Ice some how. I also think that UnCat still thinks and rationalizes in her own way and that all she lives for is vengeance and btw I disagree with those who say that this isn't justified some how because its completely justified. Her whole family is dead and she wants to make everyone who had something to killing or causing her grief in someway pay. Its actually something I can completely relate to with Catelyn. One of the reasons why I liked her more than the people on here.

[Nukelavee]

I think part of the issue with this topic is that people are "over looking" just how complex that scene is, and not dividing it properly. if that's the right way to describe it.

Does Jaimie deserve to die? Yes, I think we can say that, just based on the morality and laws of the land. He tried to kill a Stark child, he's committed treason several times (even if we ignore the Kingslaying). Mind, that doesn't mean I hope he dies.

Questioning Stoneheart's ethics really is about what she is doing to Pod and Brienne (Hunt, too) - they don't deserve what's happening.

Deciding Catlyn is vastly different in personality now has nothing to do with her regard of Jaimie, but in her handling of, again, Brienne and co, and the way her reasoning is/isn't presented to the reader. The Cat Stark we knew wasn't a pacifist or hugely forgiving, but her thinking came across as more deliberate or reasoned, Stoneheart seems stuck on surface details, uninterested in actually working things out.

Personally, I think that pre-RW Cat, if she were sitting in teh same scene, would be wondering one very important thing - How DID the Kingslayer manage to win Brienne over, considering the degree of loathing the maid felt for Jaimie, and how honour bound she was.

[Whatever]

Catelyn was entirely justified in going after Jaime, IMO. While she was incorrect in believing that he was behind the Red Wedding (with good reason to believe he was) he did later break his oath never to take up arms against Tullys by leading an army against them, threatening to throw Edmure Tully's unborn child with a trebuchet, taking Riverrun on behalf of the King and personally turning it over to an unholy alliance of Lannister/Frey (also known as his relatives), and taking Lord Edmure and Queen Jeyne as hostages to Casterly Rock, where Edmure is supposed to live the rest of his days.

He is an oathbreaker and an active enemy general who is hostile to House Tully.

jaime managed to not fight against them, resolving the situation without deaths. What else should he have done? he was ordered to do so, and IMHO he did it in the best possible way.

About the trebuchet: i don't think he was going to do it. you thi he was, okay, but what matters is that he didn't. Deeds, not intentions, matter.

[Gaston de Foix]

The thing is though, the why is just as important, if not more than the what.

It'd be like if you were a member of a Kingsguard, and was checking in on the king, only to find his throat slit, and some person next to him covered in blood and holding his body. What would you assume?

The point is, this assumption has occurred in the books, and has proven false. See Renly, murder of. You would think Catelyn Tully would remember...but perhaps it's just Uncat who doesn't.

[nevermore]

meh no he doesn't deserve to die, because i kind of relate with him so, if he did i would have to admit i would too, :P not because of my actions mind you i haven't been pushing any kid of a tower lmao but in his mentality.

About the trebuchet: i don't think he was going to do it. you thi he was, okay, but what matters is that he didn't. Deeds, not intentions, matter.

yes, i think most people go the other way on this bit, they like Catylen because of the way she thinks but i absolutely detest how she acts in most situation (let's not getting into it, people just interpret things differently, i look at her actions they look at her reasons and while we are both correct neither can concede). True Jaime pushed a kid of a tower, but that's not the Jaime he is now and i forgiven him for it (people may not have). People like Cat just changed for the worse, Tyrion COULD be heading that way but in the end i doubt it because he has tried to do things for the greater good and he probably would have flourished in his duty if not for the fact people couldn't get over the fact he is a Lannister and Dwarf same thing for Jaime about the Lannister aspect.

[Talleyrand]

If i was UnCat i would totally kill Brienne. Just about it, you send out one of your knights to bring back your child. When She return she is actively hunting your child for your enemy with weapons and equipment from the royal stores. And she is accompanied by men belonging to someone who you think has raped your daughter and a man who is killing your soldiers. I'd have her hanged on sight