Why Jaime deserves to die (Storm Of Swords Spoilers)

[zmflavius]

The point is, this assumption has occurred in the books, and has proven false. See Renly, murder of. You would think Catelyn Tully would remember...but perhaps it's just Uncat who doesn't.

I believe she does, which is, in addition to Brienne's earlier good deeds, why Un-Cat doesn't hang her right off the bat. She actually offered Brienne ample opportunity to prove her loyalty, which Brienne, due to her obstinacy, rejected.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Edited, schmedited - I decided to completely replace my post here on May 4. This is shorter!

If i was UnCat i would totally kill Brienne. [paragraph break added]

Just about it, you send out one of your knights to bring back your child. When She return she is actively hunting your child ...

So it would seem pretty awful to you if you sent out your knight to bring back your child and the next time you saw said knight she was zealously seeking your child?

... for your enemy with weapons and equipment from the royal stores.

It would seem particularly reprehensible to you if your knight was seeking your child in conjunction with, aided by, a man you had required to swear an oath to help return said child? And despite having set both of these people on that task yourself, you would leap to the false conclusion that Brienne was doing it "for" Jaime rather than Brienne and/or Jaime doing it as you had demanded?

And she is accompanied by men belonging to someone who you think has raped your daughter and a man who is killing your soldiers. I'd have her hanged on sight

Accompanying such "men" would justify being lynched?

Pod is a child, not a man; nor does he belong to Tyrion; and even if he did he would in no way be responsible for Tyrion's misbehavior (real or imagined).

Hunt does not belong to Tarly; and even the hostile BwB, throwing every accusation possible at all three captives, failed to so much as suggest that Hunt himself had killed any BwB soldiers, or indeed that he had done anything at all inimical to Stoneheart or the BwB.

Martin has made Pod and Hunt as absolutely innocent as possible, short of being newborn babies. It seems a major point of the scene that the accusations against Pod and Hunt are patently absurd upon rational examination.

The only colorable accusation is that Brienne still has a duty of obedience to Stoneheart and by refusing it is committing treason. That's weak, but the rest is utter nonsense.

I'd better keep this part in for Sivin!

All of which is oblique to the OP's statement. To that I say I don't think Jaime deserves to die, because the release (in full knowledge of his dropping Bran with the intent to kill him) amounted to a pardon for those previous crimes, and because he hasn't subsequently violated his oath to her (or done anything else that would justify her killing him). He's innocent of what is clearly her main charge. I admit there's ambiguity, but UnCat of all "people" should know better than to leap to conclusions of guilt based on words spoken by a known liar (LF first, Roose Bolton second).

[Sivin]

All of which is oblique to the OP's statement. To that I say I don't think Jaime deserves to die, because the release (in full knowledge of his dropping Bran with the intent to kill him) amounted to a pardon for those previous crimes, and because he hasn't subsequently violated his oath to her (or done anything else that would justify her killing him). He's innocent of what is clearly her main charge. I admit there's ambiguity, but UnCat of all "people" should know better than to leap to conclusions of guilt based on words spoken by a known liar (LF first, Roose Bolton second).

:agree:

Holy Hell!

Thanks for agreeing with me. (Even if you didn't mean to)

Also, I kind of can't stand Brienne.. So I'm OK with her dying. (fingers crossed)

[iamthedave]

Not even Jon. Just think of Gilly's and Mance Rayder's babys. (;

Oh, true dat.

[iamthedave]

I can't decide if Martin set this scene up to show Brienne's moral dilemma: agree to a deed that is contrary to your honor and/or your love, or allow innocent people to be murdered; or whether it is simply a vehicle to show how evil Stoneheart and the BwB become when their justified pursuit of vengeance for those involved in the RW becomes unjust, blinded, and murders innocent people.

I'd say it's definitely both. It's a further step in testing Brienne's belief in honour, in breaking down her naivety, and it also shows what Catelyn Stark has become. Even though a lot of people on the board seem to have sympathy for UnCat, it's undeniable that Martin wrote the scene with a different idea in mind. The writing is very unambiguous there, as I've already said, and you can't normally say that of Martin. We always get POV judgements, as well we should, but he usually gives a bone to ambiguity concerning the people being accused (I always recall the scene where Tyrion has a go at his father over the Red Wedding and Tywin's reply).

[Alexia]

I'd say it's definitely both. It's a further step in testing Brienne's belief in honour, in breaking down her naivety, and it also shows what Catelyn Stark has become. Even though a lot of people on the board seem to have sympathy for UnCat, it's undeniable that Martin wrote the scene with a different idea in mind. The writing is very unambiguous there, as I've already said, and you can't normally say that of Martin. We always get POV judgements, as well we should, but he usually gives a bone to ambiguity concerning the people being accused (I always recall the scene where Tyrion has a go at his father over the Red Wedding and Tywin's reply).

Really? I completely disagree - that scene does anything but how that Catelyn Stark is unambiguously evil. If we are comparing it to the Tyrion/Tywin conversation, I'll just point in the direction of Lem Lemoncloak's speech where he points to the overwhelming evidence condemning Brienne.

[Faint]

I can't believe this conversation has now jumped threads. Shouldn't this thread be merged with the "Brienne's last word" thread? It's literally the same conversation.

[Nukelavee]

Why are you surprised, Alle?

It's about Jaimie, and his possible fate, which means, sooner or later, Cat and Brienne become factors.

Discussing Cat's future will also bring in Jaimie and Brienne.

At this point, those 3 characters are linked, and discussions will all end up at that point.

Gonna be nice to have the next book, so we can have new things to worry to bits.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Really? I completely disagree - that scene does anything but how that Catelyn Stark is unambiguously evil. If we are comparing it to the Tyrion/Tywin conversation, I'll just point in the direction of Lem Lemoncloak's speech where he points to the overwhelming evidence condemning Brienne.

I'll grant your analogy:

Lem's "overwhelming evidence" is just about as sufficient to justify hanging Brienne as Tywin's explanation is sufficient to justify the Red Wedding. Both are barely colorable.

And I agree with your damning of Lady Stoneheart by equating her with the no-evil-is-too-great-to-prevent-people-from-laughing-at-me Tywin Lannister. Both have their apologists. To be fair, Tywin went first and often (Tarbecks, Reynes, sack of KL, Tysha gangrape, reaving of riverlands, and finally the RW); but then, he had a 20 year head start employing disproportionate, indiscriminate, barbaric brutality. But Stoneheart is motivated to learn fast.

[Alexia]

*arches eyebrow*

I'm afraid there was a reading comprehension fail. I certainly did not ever equate Catelyn/Stoneheart with Tywin. I simply pointed out that the previous poster was woefully in error by saying that GRRM portrayed that as unambiguously evil (and I don't believe she's evil at all). Certainly Lady Catelyn has done absolutely nothing even approaching

(Tarbecks, Reynes, sack of KL, Tysha gangrape, reaving of riverlands, and finally the RW); but then, he had a 20 year head start employing disproportionate, indiscriminate, barbaric brutality.

I will, of course, modify my stance on Lady Stoneheart once I start seeing her order the gang rape of 13 year old girls or the indiscriminate massacre of peasants.

*and I think Lem Lemoncloak's evidence would have been enough to convict Brienne of conspiring with Lannisters in any court of law*

[Chalky]

Snoop: Deserves got nothing to do with it

[AvengingAryaFan]

I will, of course, modify my stance on Lady Stoneheart once I start seeing her order the gang rape of 13 year old girls or the indiscriminate massacre of peasants.

*and I think Lem Lemoncloak's evidence would have been enough to convict Brienne of conspiring with Lannisters in any court of law*

I'm pleased to see that even you will remove your Cat-colored glasses when some threshold is crossed.

I'm less happy to see how high your threshold is, in that it is not reached by the murder of a 12 yo boy, absolutely innocent and not even suspected of doing any harm to the Starks or the North more generally; or the murder of an honorable knight innocent of doing any harm to the Starks or the North more generally, merely for pursuing the task given her by her mistress Catelyn - or was she made guilty by employing the aid of the very man Catelyn required by oath to provide just that sort of aid?

I'd say that your threshold for seeing Lady Stoneheart for what she is was so high as to be practically insurmountable, except that you were very specific about what would cross that threshold. Why am I not surprised that your threshold is crossed when the victim is a teenage girl and the crime is rape, rather than the victim being a pre-teen boy and the crime murder? Yes, of course, if it's rape it's far worse than murder, no doubt, and if the victim is female it's far worse than if the victim is male. No prejudice here folks, move along, nothing to see here.

[Gurkhal]

I will, of course, modify my stance on Lady Stoneheart once I start seeing her order the gang rape of 13 year old girls or the indiscriminate massacre of peasants.

Give her a militart command and send her to the Westerlands. We should be able to see the body count start to rise pretty quickly. Even Robb couldn't keep his forces from makinig some incursions against their own civilian population.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Erm - but Robb didn't order those rapes ...

[Gurkhal]

Erm - but Robb didn't order those rapes ...

I was more thinking about killing civilians and cearly innocent.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Right, but Tywin ordered the gangrape of Tysha - an inability to prevent some pillaging, rape or whatever isn't nearly as culpable. Anyway, not important.

[georgeforeman]

Wow, you guys jump around a lot. We started on Jamie, moved to Brie, then "Catelyn" (Really Stoneheart. They're different, folks.), and now it seems like you're debating Tywin? Yeesh.

Yes, Jamie deserves to die from the perspective of some. From the perspective of others, he clearly doesn't. IMO, it's hard to argue that he hasn't tried his best to balance his competing duties, both from his oath to Catelyn and his duty towards his family (something you'd think Cat would understand), in the days since his release.

Brie has certainly done nothing wrong. Unfortunately, she's one who cares only for the truth and is willing to look past appearances. Others are not.

Catelyn is dead. So nothing to look at there. Her undead reincarnation is vengance incarnate, so of course it's evil. Vengance without justice is always evil. And we're seeing evidence there of when Stoneheart goes about attempting to hang one of Catelyn's most loyal servants.

Tywin... yeah. He's evil by modern standards, but in his time, I don't see how you can see him as anything but a brutal but effective lord. He does right by his family, doing his level best to ensure they're consistent advancement regardless of what it means for everyone else. He's not particularly flexible in his views nor willing to let himself nor anyone he loves be taken advantage of. This leads him to cause a lot of hurt in the world, much of it to undeserving people. But it's hard to call him evil given the morality of the time he lived in.

[King Banhammer]

Eh. How different Catelyn and Stoneheart are, exactly, is a little hard to establish from the one major scene we've had with her. Doubly so as she is mute. Seeing some of pre-raised Beric might have helped us with a baseline here, but all we really get to see of him before that is the scene where he's sent off. Not much character-building goes on there.

Re: Jaime: his is a redemptive story arc. It's kind of up to an individual reader to decide where that works or doesn't for them. It's not as though we haven't seen redemptive story arcs of other villains in the past, after all. Witness: Darth Vader (who certainly had some atrocities to his name!). Personally, I suspect Jaime isn't going to end well, but he's an interesting story.

Brienne: Still doing her best to follow Cat's orders. Wouldn't have taken much actual discussion to establish this. Instead, straight to the hanging! The lack of communication here is basically the only reason I wonder how much Cat and Stoneheart actually have in common, since Cat really did have a pretty good relationship with Brienne.

Tywin: Ruthless, nasty, evil, and brutally effective. Yes. I'll cheerily call him evil (the Tysha scene in Tyrion's backstory nails that for me), but by the standards of some of his peers, he might yet be an amateur. Witness: Aerys Targ, Roose Bolton.

[damian]

in a black and white world, jaime arguable "deserves to die," or at least be locked up for a long time, just for throwing bran from the tower. but that doesn't really say anything about his value as a character, a person, and his possible redemption. i can't even imagine how boring these books would be if people either did bad things or they didn't and were judged accordingly.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

The original point, here, is that LS/Cat has "eyewitness" testimony that Jaime was responsible for the Red Wedding. Of course that testimony was a lie, but that is why LS/Cat wants to kill Jaime, not because of Bran or because he broke his oath.

LS/Cat is killing Brienne, here, because she thinks Brienne betrayed her and is now Jaime's servant. LS/Cat thinks this because clearly Brienne has fallen in love with Jaime - she kept calling out his name while she was injured, and defends him even to the death. It actually looks pretty bad for Brienne when you look at the evidence there. The fact that there is a real, legitimate explanation does not make that explanation seem any more likely to LS/Cat who knows from the mouth of Roose Bolton that Jaime is guilty of slaughtering her son and his entire army after promising not to ever raise sword against Stark or Tully.

Plus, LS/Cat did give Brienne a chance to regain her trust by going to kill Jaime, which Brienne refused.

About Lady Stoneheart,

Does anyone know if Gendry has told her that he was traveling with Arya not a month before the Red Wedding, and that she might still be alive?