Why Jaime deserves to die (Storm Of Swords Spoilers)

[Faint]

About Lady Stoneheart,

Does anyone know if Gendry has told her that he was traveling with Arya not a month before the Red Wedding, and that she might still be alive?

She knows Arya is alive but she didn't necessarily find out from Gendry. Many in the Brotherhood Without Banners could have told her that. This is why they asked Merrett Frey if he knew where the Hound was before they hung him.

[Abolesco]

I feel like you can put forth a decent case against Lady Stoneheart in her being quite evil. Even the BWB members say that things have changed since she took over. The big thing that condemns Stoneheart in my eyes is putting Pod to death with the rest. He's a kid, and I can't recall any points where she was made aware that he had any connection to Tyrion/Jaime or such. So he is simply put to death for being a squire to Brienne? That's pretty F'd up in my mind, and IMO much worse than Jaime's action against Bran.

Even setting aside Cat letting Jaime go (I personally take that as something of a pardon of his previous actions), his pushing Bran out of the tower was simply saving his sister's life (and his own). Had Bran not been injured there is no doubt word of the incestuous affair would have made it to Robert, and given the big guy's personality I doubt that the 'royal family' of theirs would have lived through the night. In any court you could make a very strong case for extenuating circumstances in Bran's 'attack'.

[Nukelavee]

I just don't buy that Roose's "howdy" at the RW really makes a difference to Stoneheart.

She hates Jaimie and the Lannisters already for all they've done, she went nuts when Robb died, and then was killed. I think she has enough to brood on, without that one line making a huge difference.

Heck, even if it was true that Jaimie was involved...I think Cat would be even more enraged that the bannerman of her brother and son allowed themselves to be turned.

[Alexia]

I'm afraid there was a reading comprehension fail. I certainly did not ever equate Catelyn/Stoneheart with Tywin. I simply pointed out that the previous poster was woefully in error by saying that GRRM portrayed that as unambiguously evil (and I don't believe she's evil at all). Certainly Lady Catelyn has done absolutely nothing even approaching

I will, of course, modify my stance on Lady Stoneheart once I start seeing her order the gang rape of 13 year old girls or the indiscriminate massacre of peasants.

I'm pleased to see that even you will remove your Cat-colored glasses when some threshold is crossed.

I'm less happy to see how high your threshold is, in that it is not reached by the murder of a 12 yo boy, absolutely innocent and not even suspected of doing any harm to the Starks or the North more generally; or the murder of an honorable knight innocent of doing any harm to the Starks or the North more generally, merely for pursuing the task given her by her mistress Catelyn - or was she made guilty by employing the aid of the very man Catelyn required by oath to provide just that sort of aid?

I'd say that your threshold for seeing Lady Stoneheart for what she is was so high as to be practically insurmountable, except that you were very specific about what would cross that threshold. Why am I not surprised that your threshold is crossed when the victim is a teenage girl and the crime is rape, rather than the victim being a pre-teen boy and the crime murder? Yes, of course, if it's rape it's far worse than murder, no doubt, and if the victim is female it's far worse than if the victim is male. No prejudice here folks, move along, nothing to see here.

That's right, AAF, beat that strawman. It certainly is consistently with your usual method of debating.

However, since I am interested in actually debating the merits of Lady Stoneheart's decision rather than trading snide remarks with someone I don't like, I will add the following:

1) At this stage, comparing Stoneheart/Tywin is the Westeros equivalent of Godwin. From what I am aware, she has not had noncombatants killed or tortured, nor has she hired the Goat or Gregor. Hyperbole undermines what little point you have. In response to the bold: If she commits actions of barbarity that approach why Tywin did, then I will begin to see her as equivalent to Tywin. In the meantime, I will continue to see her for what she is - the dead shade of Catelyn Stark who is avenging herself on Lannister and Frey combatants and in a markedly more merciful manner than the Lannisters and Freys chose to fight their own battles, given that I haven't yet heard of atrocities enacted on the peasantry.

2) Pod, unlike Tysha, is a combatant. He has served as Brienne's and Tyrion's squire, had fought in wars and killed people. While it is sad and harsh, the summary execution of a child soldier is not equivalent to torture, in particular any sort of assault on a noncombatant (male or female, your gender-baiting notwithstanding - when All-for-Joffrey was tortured to death it was even more horrific than the attack on Tysha).

3) I find the case of Brienne to be quite interesting because, as I have said in the past, Brienne is no longer loyal to House Stark. She tries to convince herself that she is but she is sworn to Jaime Lannister now and currently carrying out his orders. Not only that, but she was not summarily executed but given a trial. She was also given the assignment of killing Jaime Lannister, a perfectly legitimate assignment for a professional killer (which your oh-so-innocent-and-honorable knight really is) that she elected to refuse. I believe that this is part of Brienne's "education" on honor - which is an entirely meaningless construct in this society. Ned, Sandor Clegane, and other characters have rather nicely illustrated this and Brienne is a part of that same honor arc. I find it fascinating - and I love the way GRRM wrote this storyline.

4) Now that I have clarified my position for you, I shall go seek out other internet foes - those who understand that we are on a silly message board debating a fluffy set of books and therefore aren't interested in ad hominem attacks, snide, passive aggressive comments, or fighting strawmen, but in simply having fun passing some time debating a set of books that we mutually enjoy. I wish you luck and pleasure in finding a new strawmen to attack in your pursuit of personally insulting those who don't agree with you.

Muah! :kiss:

[Chanur]

Uncat is still the worst part of the novels for me :(

As for Jaime as much as I love the character he has done countless things that he deserves to die for.

As for House Stark and Brienne, I don't remember the details of her oath but when her patron died her loyalty was no longer required.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I feel like you can put forth a decent case against Lady Stoneheart in her being quite evil. Even the BWB members say that things have changed since she took over. The big thing that condemns Stoneheart in my eyes is putting Pod to death with the rest. He's a kid, and I can't recall any points where she was made aware that he had any connection to Tyrion/Jaime or such. So he is simply put to death for being a squire to Brienne? That's pretty F'd up in my mind, and IMO much worse than Jaime's action against Bran.

Yeah I think she's a bit twisted. But I don't think she's this complete monster that a lot of people think. Her actions wrt Jaime/Brienne I think are actually rational and justified by the weight of the evidence. Of course I hope that Brienne will not really be dead but... I think we may be left hanging until Brienne shows up and confronts Jaime (as much as I love Brienne I don't want any more Brienne PoV's).

Killing Pod... Yeah it sucks. But he was Tyrion's squire, and now is the squire of a servant of Jaime Lannister. Anyway he's definitely fought and killed for the Lannisters, and all Lions are now fair game as far as the brotherhood is concerned.

[Abolesco]

Yeah I think she's a bit twisted. But I don't think she's this complete monster that a lot of people think. Her actions wrt Jaime/Brienne I think are actually rational and justified by the weight of the evidence. Of course I hope that Brienne will not really be dead but... I think we may be left hanging until Brienne shows up and confronts Jaime (as much as I love Brienne I don't want any more Brienne PoV's).

Killing Pod... Yeah it sucks. But he was Tyrion's squire, and now is the squire of a servant of Jaime Lannister. Anyway he's definitely fought and killed for the Lannisters, and all Lions are now fair game as far as the brotherhood is concerned.

I don't really have issue with her actions toward Brienne. As far as Pod being Tyrion's squire.. We know that, but does she (or the BWB) know that? I can't recall anything saying so, and will happily admit my forgetfulness if such a passage exists. That's my issue. Pod being guilty of things that she may not have any idea he was part of. Does she know he has killed anybody? Who's to say that he wasn't a random boy that Brienne found on the road?

EDIT: I stand corrected, checked the chapter and one of the men does point out that Pod was Tyrion's squire, but even so. It's still condemning a boy for an assigned role that he likely had no power over.

[Nukelavee]

To be honest, Alexia, I don't think your post was particularly mature, or convincing, either.

Godwin? really? I don't think so, and bringing up Hitler as a comparison for Tywin...what? I don't even...

Pod? He's being hung just because he can be. Oh, he's a child-soldier, so, thats all right then. Of course, Rob was a rebel, Cat was his aide, and Bran was a viable target in any major game of thrones scenario.

Brienne not loyal to House Stark? I could have swore she was still out to rescue Sansa, and that an oath of fealty to an individual ends when one dies.

The comment wasn't a strawman. You've already said, you refuse to see Cat as evil, and then give a specific act it would take to change your mind...

One, it's not a strawman if AAF decides to comment on that fairly questionable statement, and, two, it doesn't make it look like you are interested in discusion or debate at all.

All I get is "this is my opinion, and i'll never change it".

[C.T. Phipps]

Jaime does deserve to die.

However, the question isn't an issue of deserving, I suppose but whether IN SPITE of deserving to die - whether he can make an improvement as a human being.

[King Banhammer]

Jaime does deserve to die.

However, the question isn't an issue of deserving, I suppose but whether IN SPITE of deserving to die - whether he can make an improvement as a human being.

Yeah. This is the operative point I've been curious about. He's making strides, there.

The quote that summed it up for me about him was him realizing "somewhere along the way, I became the Smiling Knight."

[Shemy]

On topic I think it raises some rather good questions - Does Jaime deserve to die? At which point do we decide when someone deserves to die. Should it have been for killing the king? Or botching his sister? Trying to kill Bran? All 3 acts are quite disgusting by themselves, but the reasoning behind them all seems fine. Killing a mad king willing to set the entire city on fire seems fine to me. Botching his sister/Infidelity and pregnant, well I don't think someone truly ever deserves to die for this but I guess if we're talking about ASOIAF setting then yes I suppose this one is legit.. Killing bran? As much as I think this is the worst, I can understand the reasoning behind it. If he threw him out willy-nilly I'd probably agree with that. But it wasn't as if he did. The boy caught them doing something. I think Ned questions this at some point and (or was it Catelyn?) about if it was his own children and what he/she would do and I think the answer was praying he would never find out to be in that position, so even they understand this.

On the concern of Brienne, I have a few things I'd like to add...

I'm rather curious as to why the BwB condemn Brienne. As far as I recall, was she not defending the children at the inn against the "fake" hound and biter and others....yet what does that earn her? Getting knocked unconcious after killing, barely surviving, getting treated to wounds for what they call a "Trial" to then hang her and the company she was with? The odd thing is that the king the BwB are claiming to represent would never have done such a thing. We see him pardoning Barristan and many others. What has Brienne ever done to deserve death? Not become an assassin to kill Jaime and in turn forfeiting her life, for a person who by rights shouldn't be alive? The book talks about how the BwB are no longer BwB - So what are they, what right have they got to judge others? I think the hound was right about them when he was talking about how they shouldn't try talking about how their shit don't stink.

If she commits actions of barbarity that approach why Tywin did, then I will begin to see her as equivalent to Tywin. In the meantime, I will continue to see her for what she is - the dead shade of Catelyn Stark who is avenging herself on Lannister and Frey combatants and in a markedly more merciful manner than the Lannisters and Freys chose to fight their own battles, given that I haven't yet heard of atrocities enacted on the peasantry

I am all for vengeance - I loved the scene with the freys and the hanging. But, what vengeance is being carried out by hanging Brienne and the company Brienne is with? Brienne wasn't at the wedding, its not her fault Robb died, neither is it her fault that Sansa/Arya weren't at Kings Landing, she is still searching for the daughters - It may look like it's under Jaimes order, but I'm pretty sure that Cat isn't so stupid, even if she is undead to see that this note gives her access to any and all information she can get in order to find her daughters. Cat knew Briennes personality, there are only three personalities like that, putting honor before everything - one of them being her own dead husband.

3) I find the case of Brienne to be quite interesting because, as I have said in the past, Brienne is no longer loyal to House Stark. She tries to convince herself that she is but she is sworn to Jaime Lannister now and currently carrying out his orders. Not only that, but she was not summarily executed but given a trial. She was also given the assignment of killing Jaime Lannister, a perfectly legitimate assignment for a professional killer (which your oh-so-innocent-and-honorable knight really is) that she elected to refuse. I believe that this is part of Brienne's "education" on honor - which is an entirely meaningless construct in this society. Ned, Sandor Clegane, and other characters have rather nicely illustrated this and Brienne is a part of that same honor arc. I find it fascinating - and I love the way GRRM wrote this storyline

I didn't read a trial when I read that scene. I read BwB and Catelyn pulling up any reason they could to hang Brienne and her companions. Every accusation was met with a reason for her actions, which was then dismissed and not questioned. I read a request to become an assassin, not to keep her vows as a knight, not even caring about her daughters anymore at that point, just an assassin or death for not complying. Amongst it all, shes still pleading for Pods life and the knight, yet they are promptly ignored, even up unto the point where shes about to get hanged, the VERY same thing Catelyn asked Walder Frey in regards to Robb at the wedding. Catelyn doesn't care. Does this seem like a trial? It seems as much of a trial to me as Tyrions second trial. I doubt Cat could not understand Briennes character - like I said previously and like you mentioned, she follows the same code of honor that her dead husband follows. To not understand why Brienne couldn't choose to kill Jaime, to not understand her innocence is like not understanding Ned, which I'm pretty sure she has a grasp on. The truth is, she just doesn't care. The only thing that matters for her is vengeance, at any cost to obtain it.

[A wilding]

As far as Pod being Tyrion's squire.. We know that, but does she (or the BWB) know that? I can't recall anything saying so, and will happily admit my forgetfulness if such a passage exists.

Yes the BwB do know. Lem says so at the trial. Also Thoros says earlier that Pod had told the BwB that he had fought in battles and killed men.

[C.T. Phipps]

On topic I think it raises some rather good questions - Does Jaime deserve to die? At which point do we decide when someone deserves to die. Should it have been for killing the king? Or botching his sister? Trying to kill Bran? All 3 acts are quite disgusting by themselves, but the reasoning behind them all seems fine. Killing a mad king willing to set the entire city on fire seems fine to me. Botching his sister/Infidelity and pregnant, well I don't think someone truly ever deserves to die for this but I guess if we're talking about ASOIAF setting then yes I suppose this one is legit.. Killing bran? As much as I think this is the worst, I can understand the reasoning behind it. If he threw him out willy-nilly I'd probably agree with that. But it wasn't as if he did. The boy caught them doing something. I think Ned questions this at some point and (or was it Catelyn?) about if it was his own children and what he/she would do and I think the answer was praying he would never find out to be in that position, so even they understand this.

I think Jaime started deserving to die when he effectively internalized his "s*** for honor" ethos and basically started becoming the person we see in A Game of Thrones. The person who basically IS capable of throwing Bran out a window and willingly assists in leading the kingdom to ruin just because it is something for Cersei. In Jaime's case, even he will admit that he never had a "face heel turn" moment. Instead, it was a series of steps (one after the other) which probably started when he was very young. Really, I think that the moment Jaime stopped being someone who really had a right to breathe on his planet was when he assisted in Tywin's mass rape of Tyrion's wife.

And didn't think to tell Tyrion, the person he LOVES MOST IN THE WORLD (except for his sister), until decades later.

For me, that showed Jaimie was not a person who had anything to contribute.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I am all for vengeance - I loved the scene with the freys and the hanging. But, what vengeance is being carried out by hanging Brienne and the company Brienne is with? Brienne wasn't at the wedding, its not her fault Robb died, neither is it her fault that Sansa/Arya weren't at Kings Landing, she is still searching for the daughters - It may look like it's under Jaimes order, but I'm pretty sure that Cat isn't so stupid, even if she is undead to see that this note gives her access to any and all information she can get in order to find her daughters.

The thing is that all of the evidence Catelyn/LS has condemns Brienne. Roose Bolton basically told her that Jaime was behind the Red Wedding - this is one of her last living memories so it's burned into her mind. What is Catelyn to think when Brienne shows up bearing his arms and under his orders? Would a Jaime Lannister that so spectacularly betrayed his oath not to raise arms against house Stark/Tully that he would violate guest-right be trusted to seek out Sansa and Arya only in order to keep them safe? Highly unlikely! The fact that Brienne is now defending Jaime and appears to be smitten with him is particularly damning in her eyes.

If Catelyn had believed that Brienne was actually seeking her daughters for their safekeeping, I can't imagine that she would have condemned her to die.

[inkasrain]

And didn't think to tell Tyrion, the person he LOVES MOST IN THE WORLD (except for his sister), until decades later.

I don't know. If you knew you had done contributed to something horrendously hurtful to someone you love, but they didn't know it, would you really rush to tell them? Especially when you think the other person has moved on and put it behind them? I'm not saying that Jaime wasn't wrong for not telling Tyrion the truth about Tysha over the years, but it's a decision I can definitely sympathize with.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Really, I think that the moment Jaime stopped being someone who really had a right to breathe on his planet was when he assisted in Tywin's mass rape of Tyrion's wife.

And didn't think to tell Tyrion, the person he LOVES MOST IN THE WORLD (except for his sister), until decades later.

There's no evidence that Jaime knew Tywin's intentions - how could anyone predict this level of sadistic behaviour? In fact, just the opposite was the case. Tywin assured Jaime that the lie would be what was best for Tyrion, that everything would blow over quickly and the girl would be free to go.

I think that both Jaime and Tyrion were extremely embittered towards their father after this event. To the extent that neither would really trust him again.

Why didn't Jaime tell Tyrion the truth earlier? Probably he felt really ashamed about it, and didn't see any good that could come of the truth in any case. I suppose we'll see whether it was a good thing he told him in aDwD. It might send the Imp off the deep-end, or it might start him on a path to closure.

[damian]

There's no evidence that Jaime knew Tywin's intentions - how could anyone predict this level of sadistic behaviour? In fact, just the opposite was the case. Tywin assured Jaime that the lie would be what was best for Tyrion, that everything would blow over quickly and the girl would be free to go.

I think that both Jaime and Tyrion were extremely embittered towards their father after this event. To the extent that neither would really trust him again.

Why didn't Jaime tell Tyrion the truth earlier? Probably he felt really ashamed about it, and didn't see any good that could come of the truth in any case. I suppose we'll see whether it was a good thing he told him in aDwD. It might send the Imp off the deep-end, or it might start him on a path to closure.

also he was a kid, and it isn't in a kid's wisest interests to defy tywin lannister

[C.T. Phipps]

Basically, I'm saying that Jaime became the monster I think he eventually became because of Tywin's influence.

He started going in a certain direction then and never stopped.

A metaphor I liked for good and evil is that they're not "nouns" but "verbs." You start doing evil or good and you go one way or the other.

[AvengingAryaFan]

The thing is that all of the evidence Catelyn/LS has condemns Brienne. Roose Bolton basically told her that Jaime was behind the Red Wedding - this is one of her last living memories so it's burned into her mind. What is Catelyn to think when Brienne shows up bearing his arms and under his orders? Would a Jaime Lannister that so spectacularly betrayed his oath not to raise arms against house Stark/Tully that he would violate guest-right be trusted to seek out Sansa and Arya only in order to keep them safe? Highly unlikely! The fact that Brienne is now defending Jaime and appears to be smitten with him is particularly damning in her eyes.

If Catelyn had believed that Brienne was actually seeking her daughters for their safekeeping, I can't imagine that she would have condemned her to die.

As with most ASOIAF topics, there seem to be two contradictory positions on this and I don't believe either side is about to change their minds. So why do I reply :dunno:

True, Roose implicated Jaime. But UnCat should know Roose is untrustworthy. If Roose's words are burned into her mind, shouldn't his horrible treachery against House Stark be burned in her mind even more indelibly? The last time Catelyn relied solely on the accusatory word of an untrustworthy person (LF) to shanghai Tyrion, look at all the grief she unleashed. It should occur to her that Roose's words might be misleading. Even if it doesn't occur to her, she ought to reserve judgment pending further information. And when her formerly most trusted knight provides just such further information, she ought to credit it.

You ask what Stoneheart is to think when Brienne shows up bearing Jaime's arms (horse, order). Yet you know the answer that has been proposed numerous times in this thread: that it's perfectly reasonable for Brienne and Jaime to be trying to complete the agreement that Catelyn required of them, and that having arms, transportation and letter of safe passage provided by the Lannisters is 100% consistent with trying to complete that agreement.

If Stoneheart had no previous experience with Brienne it would be easier to understand her impatience and distrust. But not only does she have previous experience so that she KNOWS, to a high degree of certainty, that Brienne was perhaps THE most honorable knight in the realm, she also knows Brienne again risked almost certain death to save some children - about the most extreme demonstration of honor above all that could be given. So what is she supposed to think? That Brienne is honorable, exactly as she always has been. Stoneheart's actions should follow that thinking.

Stoneheart could reasonably expect that Jaime might betray his oath. But this isn't directly about Jaime - it's about Brienne. Stoneheart has no such reason to doubt Brienne (BS of the BwB notwithstanding), except for the fact that Brienne now favors Jaime. But dismissing Brienne's favorable words w/r/t Jaime based on the fact that they are favorable words about Jaime is horribly circular logic. Given that the source of Stoneheart's information tying Jaime to the RW is Roose Bolton, and given the strength of the objective reasons to trust Brienne, Stoneheart should be inquiring seriously and openmindedly about what Brienne is trying desperately to tell her.

Ironically, the very scene we're discussing demonstrates how useless it is trying to argue with people whose minds are made up. At least you can't hang me!

[Nukelavee]

The reality is, we can judge Jaimie by "our" morality, or by Westeros', but not both.

By ours? Killing Ned's men, and tossing Bran are his crimes. Not the incest (Springer proves we don't kill people for incest, lol), and not killing a psychotic king.

Further, we need to keep seperate Jaimie, amd Brienne. The logic that "she accepts stuff from an enemy to continue the quest her leige sent her on means she's due a hangin..." just doesn't fly.

As far as Tysha's rape - agian I'll ask, how is that Jaimie's fault? Omg, he lied and said she was a whore! Because, y'know, whore's totally LOVE to be gang-raped, as opposed to lost farmgirls. I'm also quite certain Tyrion would have been ever so relieved to discover years ago she wasn't a whore, and that would have wiped the pain from his soul. I'm also ever so certain that if he'd spoken up before the rape, Tywin woulda just blushed and said, "ok, fine, son, how about this - we'll just forget this ever happened, heh".