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Snow's Ghost

[No Spoilers] Was Cersei Sincere?

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Starki, I have a reply, but I don't think we can get into it in a non-spoiler thread. Technically I think even your last section shouldn't be in here, as that's not yet been confirmed in the TV series.

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The key to this scene is Cersei's "little bird without wings". It is crystal clear she is talking about Bran and laughing at Cat behind her hand. Cold, ruthless, pyschotic witch that she is.

This.

There are little hints through Episode 1 and 2 that Cersei is not a nice figure. In Episode 1, she unnerves Sansa and (in a medieval setting) hugely offends Catelyn by asking about Sansa's menstruation. That's just one. In Episode 2, she's repeatedly refering to Bran, and hoping he dies.

Does this really seem like someone who wouldn't lie about a dead child?

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I Think she was 99% sincere. She obviously wants Bran to die, so the secret wouldn't get out, but it seems kinda obvious that she felt for Catelyn.

From what I remember in the series, she always liked children and

the only reason that Bran was pushed out in the first place was because of Jamie. Cersei wanted to scare him into not talking.

It's a matter of life or death for Cersei, Jamie, and her three children. She can still feel for the mother even when she wants the boy to die.

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I Think she was 99% sincere. She obviously wants Bran to die, so the secret wouldn't get out, but it seems kinda obvious that she felt for Catelyn.

From what I remember in the series, she always liked children and

the only reason that Bran was pushed out in the first place was because of Jamie. Cersei wanted to scare him into not talking.

It's a matter of life or death for Cersei, Jamie, and her three children. She can still feel for the mother even when she wants the boy to die.

ummm no. Cersei was panicked almost beyond words. She wanted Jamie to do exactly what he did. Which was (attempt to) kill Bran. This is a no spoiler thread, so that's as much as we can say.

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What part on NO SPOILERS is too complicated to understand ? NO SPOILERS means exactly that. I'm feeling we are gonna have to edit and monitor every post since people ( mostly NEW people ) don't seem to care or understand that NO SPOILERS means NO FUCKING SPOILERS!

Edited by Xray:

I edited out the quoted spoiler, and deleted the quoted post. But I'm leaving SotM's rant in because it is righteous (also, correct). :smoking:

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Personally, still I think this was a poor topic to designate as "No Spoilers" because the nature of the question draws people to want to make comparisons between the book Ceresi and the one in the show.

In trying to think of something to add to the topic that is not spoiler material...

I think Ceresi wants Bran to die, but I do think she felt sorry for Catelyn too. As a mother herself, I don't see how Ceresi couldn't have sympathized with Catelyn to some degree. For my point of view though, telling Catelyn an entirely unnecessary lie would be far too risky and stupid (yes, even for Ceresi), so I think it happened as she described it. Yes, if she's telling the truth, that does change what we know from the books, but I assume that was a conscience choice that was made by the producers for what they probably felt was better for dramatic reasons.

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It humanises Cersei, she has been through the death of a child and it hurt her badly. It is something that she doesn't want to go through again, so I see the story as Cersei's justification for what she had Jaime do, despite how guilty she feels. As was mentioned in the initial Twins scene in Ep 1, if Robert had known her secret then both her and Jaime would be decorating the city gates. To an extent Cersei sees Bran's death as a necessary evil to protect her lover.

This is really clever, except I think it's more about her desire to protect her remaining kids.

A lot of people seem to have this knee-jerk reaction that she's lying because she's a villain. But it's knee-jerk, and boring.

Essentially, there are three possibilities here:

1) That child never existed.

2) The child existed, and Cersei had a hand in his death.

3) The child existed, and Cersei did not have a hand in his death.

I hope it's #3, from a character-depth perspective. Also, I think it's pretty clear that Cersei does care about her existing children; since she has maternal instincts, I can't imagine her murdering her own child. Although I suppose it's possible that she induced a late-term abortion.

In favor of #1, it seems really weird that the whole kingdom--let alone the wife of one of the most important nobles and the king's BFF--would have been ignorant of the king and queen's firstborn child. And I don't think we ever see that kind of secrecy in the books. But based on the fact that Cersei tells it that way and Catelyn seems to believe her, it looks like we have to conclude that this is a possibility there.

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With infant mortality rate being what it is in this setting, I can see there being a delay before it's officially announced that the king's heir has been born. If the baby died within hours of being born, he would probably be buried discretely, so the king and queen are allowed to grieve privately.

I have no idea what the practice was in medieval settings though for royal children that were either stillborn or died within a few hours of being born though. If a prince was born and died within a day from birthing complications or health issues, how wide spread would this knowledge be I wonder? And how wide spread would the knowledge be in neighboring countries that the queen was even expecting a child? It'd be interesting to know those things, though I'm not sure where to begin to research them.

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In HBO's Game of Thrones - Episode 2, was Cersei's visit to Catelyn and her emotional outpouring over the death of her first born genuine? While watching last night, I was conflicted - we know Cersei is the Queen of Manipulation and Deceit, yet... Furthermore, the tie to Jon Arryn dying suddenly of a "fever" cannot be ignored - any connection? Ultimately, I believe Cersei wanted to see for herself that Bran was not dying and used the death of her first born as a reason to deflect any suspicion surrounding her and/or Jaime. Despite this, it was very interesting that Catelyn found the strand of long, blonde hair...

I want to know what others' reactions were/are to this...

I think she was sincere. Cersei is a complex person that's trying to defend and preserve what she thinks is important. It can lead her to be brutal, but I also think she can still feel sympathy. Sort of like "The kid had to take the fall but I do really feel for you about it cuz I've been there".

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I don't know. She wanted Bran's silence, but... I think Cersei was'nt sincere. And she lied about Robert's baby.

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This is really clever, except I think it's more about her desire to protect her remaining kids.

A lot of people seem to have this knee-jerk reaction that she's lying because she's a villain. But it's knee-jerk, and boring.

Essentially, there are three possibilities here:

1) That child never existed.

2) The child existed, and Cersei had a hand in his death.

3) The child existed, and Cersei did not have a hand in his death.

I hope it's #3, from a character-depth perspective. Also, I think it's pretty clear that Cersei does care about her existing children; since she has maternal instincts, I can't imagine her murdering her own child. Although I suppose it's possible that she induced a late-term abortion.

In favor of #1, it seems really weird that the whole kingdom--let alone the wife of one of the most important nobles and the king's BFF--would have been ignorant of the king and queen's firstborn child. And I don't think we ever see that kind of secrecy in the books. But based on the fact that Cersei tells it that way and Catelyn seems to believe her, it looks like we have to conclude that this is a possibility there.

Your playing down her hatred of Robert, She did not want to have his children and when the moon tea didn't work she poisoned the child. It sealed it for me when she described how the baby looked like Robert with the dark hair.

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Your playing down her hatred of Robert, She did not want to have his children and when the moon tea didn't work she poisoned the child. It sealed it for me when she described how the baby looked like Robert with the dark hair.

Doesn't the tv show play down her hatred of Robert though? It didn't occur to me that she might be sincere until she had that conversation with Robert and afterwards, Ned. Anyway, me, I'd be happy if there were differences between the tv and book version; I don't need two exact, same Cerseis.

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Cersei should be cold, not warm and caring mother. Hopefully we will see the REAL Cersei in seasons to come, though i hate the whole character.

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I thought it was interesting that she mentioned the baby was black of hair as she described the story to Cat. We can see that all of her children are golden-haired. Was that a slip-up? We also know that she was there (screwing her brother Jaime) when Bran was pushed and obviously wants the boy to die. To me it seemed she was showing what a good actress the character Cercei is by launching into the story as some way to "comfort" this boy's mother. I suppose it is possible that she loved Robert in the beginning and was genuinely sad at the loss of her first child, but when you see all those blonde kids she has and you know she's got a romantic relationship with her brother, you have to question all sincerity on her part.

Loved the "CSI" moment when Cat is in the tower and finds that disturbed spot where they were "doing it" and the long blonde hair. Maybe if she put the dark-haired baby comment together with the hair and the shapes in the dirt, she'd have figured a lot of things out right then and there. Don't think she's quite that smart, though. If only she had the technology they have in the tv series Bones.

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Loved the "CSI" moment when Cat is in the tower and finds that disturbed spot where they were "doing it" and the long blonde hair. Maybe if she put the dark-haired baby comment together with the hair and the shapes in the dirt, she'd have figured a lot of things out right then and there. Don't think she's quite that smart, though. If only she had the technology they have in the tv series Bones.

I'm sure when word gets out about the reason Ned opposed Joff for the throne (the reason he lost his head) Cat will put 2 and 1 together and get 3 incestuously conceived kids.

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The part about her not going back to ever see her dead child is probably the only moment in which I can conclude Cersei did not really love this firtst-born baby.

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The CSI moment was cool, I like that scene! :)

About Cersei lying: in one of the episodes she mentions to Robert about their dead child, so I think she was not lying about the child itself but she might have had a hand in his demise as horrible as that sounds. She did not want Robert's children. When Ned let her know he knew about her 3 children's father being Jaime she said,"Thank the Gods."

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I think it was basically to make Cat less supicious about her causing Bran's "Fall" but she was not sincre she is never sincre she only looks out for herself

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