Whose going to protect the Frey's now?

[Xarne]

So the injustice of Brienne getting hung by UnCat, despite the fact that she's stubbornly and honorably continued to attempt to fulfill Cat's last command, despite the fact that Pod and Hyle Hunt are totally innocent of any harm to the Starks, despite the fact that Jaime has successfully stuck to the letter of his oath to Catelyn and was uninvolved with the RW, yet is one of UnCat's primary targets -- none of this makes you question the principle of revenge that fails to question the individual's culpability?

Srsly, why is she even alive/back, whatever? She was annoying alive, now she's annoying undead. She's all filled with bitterness now (kind of like in life). Someone burn her and be done with it.

[Knight of the Laurel]

I don't think GRRM has much use for poetic justice and the kinslayer's curse works about as well as superstition usually does in Westeros, hardly at all. The Freys will be OK if they can ally with whoever is the new power the Riverlands, they've still got a lot of men and soldiers and a very strong position and even if Riverrun isn't much use to them right now, they've at least neutralized the Tullys for the moment. Also, the Riverlands are so devastated that they're about the strongest House left in a ruined region. They're in a similar position to the Boltons in a lot of ways. I think whoever is the new Lord of the Crossing will be able to trade his support, access to the crossing, and fighting men in exchange for a pardon, then they have to hope that their new ally ends up on top.

[AvengingAryaFan]

I don't think GRRM has much use for poetic justice and the kinslayer's curse works about as well as superstition usually does in Westeros, hardly at all. The Freys will be OK if they can ally with whoever is the new power the Riverlands, they've still got a lot of men and soldiers and a very strong position and even if Riverrun isn't much use to them right now, they've at least neutralized the Tullys for the moment. Also, the Riverlands are so devastated that they're about the strongest House left in a ruined region. They're in a similar position to the Boltons in a lot of ways. I think whoever is the new Lord of the Crossing will be able to trade his support, access to the crossing, and fighting men in exchange for a pardon, then they have to hope that their new ally ends up on top.

You're right about them being in the same relative position as the Boltons - momentarily on top in a ruined region seething with hatred for them, hated by men (and possibly cursed by the gods) for their barbaric and savage treachery.

[Asarlai]

I don't think GRRM has much use for poetic justice and the kinslayer's curse works about as well as superstition usually does in Westeros, hardly at all. The Freys will be OK if they can ally with whoever is the new power the Riverlands, they've still got a lot of men and soldiers and a very strong position and even if Riverrun isn't much use to them right now, they've at least neutralized the Tullys for the moment. Also, the Riverlands are so devastated that they're about the strongest House left in a ruined region. They're in a similar position to the Boltons in a lot of ways. I think whoever is the new Lord of the Crossing will be able to trade his support, access to the crossing, and fighting men in exchange for a pardon, then they have to hope that their new ally ends up on top.

The Lannisters are really their only hope, though even they could betray the Freys, not that they (the Lannisters) are really the most likely winners. Stannis would kill those involved in the Red Wedding as a matter of justice, and maybe allow some uninvolved Frey to keep the Crossing as "payment" for allowing him to pass. Dany would likely roast them to win some popularity. If there's ever another strong Stark ruling the North, they're dead.

[Faint]

I don't think GRRM has much use for poetic justice and the kinslayer's curse works about as well as superstition usually does in Westeros, hardly at all. The Freys will be OK if they can ally with whoever is the new power the Riverlands, they've still got a lot of men and soldiers and a very strong position and even if Riverrun isn't much use to them right now, they've at least neutralized the Tullys for the moment. Also, the Riverlands are so devastated that they're about the strongest House left in a ruined region. They're in a similar position to the Boltons in a lot of ways. I think whoever is the new Lord of the Crossing will be able to trade his support, access to the crossing, and fighting men in exchange for a pardon, then they have to hope that their new ally ends up on top.

You're overestimating their positioning. They only had 4,000 men to start with. They sent half that number up North with Roose Bolton. And their only ally is the Lannisters who themselves have no ally besides the Tyrells. As it is, the Lannisters are already contemplating sacrificing some of the Freys to appease the Faith.

So unless you contemplate the Lannisters staying in power for the foreseeable future, the Freys are completely screwed. Nobody will want to ally with them. Doing that automatically gets you the wrath of the common people and for what? It's not as if they can't be supplanted as easy as the Tullys were.

And if you believe that Jon is Daenerys' nephew and she becomes Queen of Westeros, then the Freys might as well kill themselves before the Starks and Targaryens feed them to wolves and/or dragons.

[olennaredyne]

So the injustice of Brienne getting hung by UnCat, despite the fact that she's stubbornly and honorably continued to attempt to fulfill Cat's last command, despite the fact that Pod and Hyle Hunt are totally innocent of any harm to the Starks, despite the fact that Jaime has successfully stuck to the letter of his oath to Catelyn and was uninvolved with the RW, yet is one of UnCat's primary targets -- none of this makes you question the principle of revenge that fails to question the individual's culpability?

Then again, Walder Frey willingly accepted the risk that his entire family would be cursed by grossly violating the sacred guest right. Maybe there's no way to save those Freys who were uninvolved (or even those faithful to Robb and the North). There will certainly be many after them: the BwB, Arya, Nymeria, some of the riverlords and probably the crannogmen. I think it'll eventually come down to this: if you're a Frey, you're afraid.

One of the Freys they hung, I can't remember, was definitely a participant in the Red Wedding. So that's fair. And yes, everything that is coming to them, they deserve. They fully asked for it. You cannot possibly violate half the sacred laws known to men, betray your own king, kill a defenseless man and his men under your roof in the most craven, merciless, shameless, sickening, ghastly, abhorrent, gratuitous way possible (if even the Lannisters think that your house is sick and cursed, you know you've reached a historic low) and not expect equally appalling repercussions. That would just be ironic, not unfair.

Jaime, in my opinion, has not kept to his oath. He conveniently sends Brienne mucking around for the girls instead without a prayer or a hope, and he is the main catalyst in helping the Freys - the FREYS, goddamn it - capture the Tully stronghold. He cons his way out of the "not taking up arms against Tullys and Starks" part by peacefully threatening to kill Edmure and his family unless he hands Riverrun over to him. Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what Cat meant with his oath.

No, he's spent about all of five seconds thinking about his oath.

[Dragonstar]

I think as things stand at the end of AFFC, the Freys are dammed. A lot of people think or speak this fact at various points. The Lannisters are not the central controlling power they once were. Tywin is gone, Tyrion is most likely on his way to befriend Dany, Kevan is a cautious man and Jaime is too wrapped up in Cersei - loving and hating her, to keep his eye on larger dynastic feuds. So basically, watch for the Freys being hanged or worse.

[Ecwhite]

You guys didn't know? Extreme spoiler alert! Walder Frey has already allied with the king of the Others, all he needs to do is sacrifice his 1000 children.

But really, one thing that I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned, (sorry if they have) but Littlefinger was in love with Cat. With all of his revenge plots and what not, I don't think that he will just leave her murderers alive.

[Gurkhal]

But really, one thing that I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned, (sorry if they have) but Littlefinger was in love with Cat. With all of his revenge plots and what not, I don't think that he will just leave her murderers alive

He was inlove with Catelyn but how many feelings does he possess for her at present? I'm not so sure that he actually habors warm feelings any longer. He certainly didn't hesitate to kill her sister, abduct her daughter, mastermind the war etc. for his old love's sake. My guess is that Littlefinger don't have that kind of sentimentality to go one some kind of avenging quest - unless it provided some advantage to himself.

I could of course be wrong.

[AvengingAryaFan]

One of the Freys they hung, I can't remember, was definitely a participant in the Red Wedding. So that's fair. And yes, everything that is coming to them, they deserve. They fully asked for it. You cannot possibly violate half the sacred laws known to men, betray your own king, kill a defenseless man and his men under your roof in the most craven, merciless, shameless, sickening, ghastly, abhorrent, gratuitous way possible (if even the Lannisters think that your house is sick and cursed, you know you've reached a historic low) and not expect equally appalling repercussions. That would just be ironic, not unfair.

Jaime, in my opinion, has not kept to his oath. He conveniently sends Brienne mucking around for the girls instead without a prayer or a hope, and he is the main catalyst in helping the Freys - the FREYS, goddamn it - capture the Tully stronghold. He cons his way out of the "not taking up arms against Tullys and Starks" part by peacefully threatening to kill Edmure and his family unless he hands Riverrun over to him. Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what Cat meant with his oath.

No, he's spent about all of five seconds thinking about his oath.

There are Freys and Freys; some are loyal to Robb and obviously would have been opposed to the RW.

I'd be OK with hanging every Frey, except for Martin's graphic demonstration of what happens when vengeance is blind. He demonstrated that w/r/t Brienne, apparently hung despite being not only the most honorable fighter in the series, the most courageous (taking on the Bloody Mummers to save the children), and having been expressly trying to follow Catelyn's last orders. The hanging of Pod and Hunt is part of the demonstration, both because their deaths served as wholly inappropriate and unwarranted punishment for Brienne, and because it was wrong on its own terms: neither of them had the least thing to do with the RW, nor are they Freys, nor has the BwB begun killing Tarly men, nor is Hunt a Tarly man, and Pod is not only innocent w/r/t the RW, no longer even associated with the Lannisters, but he's a child to boot. Even if Brienne refused an order from Stoneheart and we deem Stoneheart Brienne's liege by virtue of her relationship to Catelyn Stark, and further deem the order to have been one that an honorable knight should fulfill (Cat swore never to require anything of Brienne that would bring her into dishonor); even if we accept all of Happy Ent's argument to that effect, the most we can say is that Brienne technically could be convicted of treason and so it might not be wholly improper to kill her. We cannot say the same of Pod or Hunt, who are blameless. My point is: that was a terrific demonstration of vengeance run amuck, and it was sickening.

Thus, while I absolutely agree that every Frey should be hung who was remotely involved in or complicit with the RW by act or knowledgeable omission, I'm not so sure that I'd approve of ALL Freys being killed. Then again, they're Walder's offspring, and in view of his incredible treachery that may be adequate reason to eliminate them from the gene pool.

As to Jaime - I'll grant it's quite ambiguous, and like those special images you can choose to see him as still quite evil, or as substantially reformed if not perfect. In his defense, he has reason to believe that Brienne is nothing if not dedicated, persistent and resourceful, so in the absence of any actual leads she's a more reasonable choice for searching for them than most. And he did expressly tell her to keep them safe from Cersei; he didn't ask her to bring them back to KL or the Lannisters (a truth Stoneheart should have accepted). Moreover, he DID end the siege with little bloodshed, even knowing that most of the soldiers would in fact take up arms against the Lannisters again. He had to do SOMETHING to achieve that goal, and a good, credible lie was reasonable under the circumstances. Were his threats lies? I'm not sure he knew, though he seemed not to want to have to follow through. Here there's no data: you can conclude he's black or white and no fact contradicts you.

[King_In_The_North]

In AFFC Jaime notices A LOT how the Riverlords are only outwardly loyal to the Lannisters and the Freys, and even mentions how after the RW some of them still fought for the Starks and Tullys. I think that if the moment is given (eg Sansa revealing herself) they will join her and will kill all the Freys. I also expect there to be some sort of dynastic struggle amongst the heirs to Walder Frey, which would make them not only guest-right violators and kingslayers, but also kinslayers as well. I think those are the three worst offences in Westerosi culture.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

So the injustice of Brienne getting hung by UnCat, despite the fact that she's stubbornly and honorably continued to attempt to fulfill Cat's last command, despite the fact that Pod and Hyle Hunt are totally innocent of any harm to the Starks, despite the fact that Jaime has successfully stuck to the letter of his oath to Catelyn and was uninvolved with the RW, yet is one of UnCat's primary targets -- none of this makes you question the principle of revenge that fails to question the individual's culpability?

Then again, Walder Frey willingly accepted the risk that his entire family would be cursed by grossly violating the sacred guest right. Maybe there's no way to save those Freys who were uninvolved (or even those faithful to Robb and the North). There will certainly be many after them: the BwB, Arya, Nymeria, some of the riverlords and probably the crannogmen. I think it'll eventually come down to this: if you're a Frey, you're afraid.

Jaime has been doing f-all searching for Sansa and Arya except sending a woman to search the entirety of Westeros.

In any case, this unCat/unGregor business is getting tiring now. This is what happens when you kill off characters without thinking.

[Ellroy]

After my recent re-read of ASOS, I think that the epilogue is very important to understand the probable end of House Frey. My feeling is that Lord Walder will die in his death bed (naturally or not, I do not know) and that after his death, house Frey will destroy hismelf with an inner war for succession.

[cklabyrinth]

Jaime has been doing f-all searching for Sansa and Arya except sending a woman to search the entirety of Westeros.

In any case, this unCat/unGregor business is getting tiring now. This is what happens when you kill off characters without thinking.

It's likely been mentioned in this thread already, but I'm thinking if Littlefinger approaches the BwB to dismantle the Freys while unCat is still around, he's a dead man. I'm pretty sure Cat came to the conclusion that Littlefinger lied to her and Ned about the owner of the dagger, which helped to start the war. I really hope that's how Littlefinger meets his demise, leaving Sansa alone to call the shots and whatnot.

Freys still die, but this time with even more closure. Might even be the ultimate closure for unCat, too.

[Black Walder]

This thread has done a great job of cataloging just how screwed the Fray house is. I can't add much more that hasn't already been said except I'm surprised that practically no one has referred to the hatred between Edwyn Fray and Black Waldor Fray. Right now they're the first two in line to being heir of crossing and the two hate each other with a passion. By Edwyn's exchange with Jamie we know that both likely have spies in each others service and Edwyn accused Black Waldor of being complicit in the death of both Merrett and their father Ryman. I have a feeling that it will come to open hostility between Edwyn and Black Waldor on top of all of the Frey's external problems and soon there will be a Frey civil war.

Edwyn just doesn't have what it takes to drive this love train. It is my solemn responsibility, as the next Frey in line who has a way with the ladies, to eliminate him and carry on the proud tradition of fielding armies from our pants!

(Yay! Die Freys!)

:lol:

Two castles that become one and then turn to ruins? Could it be a vague omen? I know its not conclusive, but certainly suggestive. :)

I dunno, could refer to any doomed alliance... Now if GRRM had specified that they were two identical castles, you'd be cooking with gas...

[The Rattleshirt]

I have a sneaky suspicion that the forces of the Vale could come down upon the Twins if Littlefinger gets his way, killing Cat surely didn't put them in his good graces in my view.

[Lord Damian]

I can see the Freys becoming paranoid and staying in the twins at night. Things are going to end very badly for this family faction.