[BOOK SPOILERS] Ep. 102 Discussion Part the Second

[smegma]

And I'm saying that telling them that they're not welcome here and that they're wrong wrong wrong is bullshit, condescension and malarkey of the highest order.

If there are enough readers/viewers that are saying that things aren't the way they wanted them to be and the show isn't doing its job, perhaps that's reasonable? Perhaps that's actually a fair criticism? And if it appeals to you - that's awesome, and shout it out from the rooftops - but it doesn't make their perceptions of it incorrect.

Here's another thing, smegma - some people actively enjoy nitpicking and snark. Others do enjoy nothing but sunshine out the ass and rainbows and puppies, but others really do get a kick from mocking and pointing out the issues. Saying that they are wrong to even enjoy that is bullshit.

I do think that it's hard to get a clear picture of what was and wasn't left in the show from the books with only seeing a few episodes, and I tend to be on board with most of the changes they've made (or at least understand why they made them), but telling others that they're wrong for the way they watch the show invites no criticism, conversation or even a sentence. Why bother coming to a board and telling people that? You can sit at home and not talk to people all you like.

Where did I say that people weren't welcome here? I merely offered an alternative way of viewing the show to those that are having panic attacks and hate-fests. Fuck if I care, REALLY, but I can offer my point of view just as much as anyone else can. And if you are so up in arms about my "attitude" just view it as my way of snarking.

[Civfan]

Seriously, smegma - what a fucking condescending, shitty post that completely nukes any reasonable conversation.

So... it was like just about every other post around here? I started reading this forum a while ago and don't post much but wow, every thread is a shitstorm. People rage at eachother for no reason on a regular basis. It's worse than any other forum I've ever been to, so don't act so surprised. Besides, you're being waaaay bitchier.

People who are complaining about every little thing should make a nitpicky thread if they want. It's fine to dislike something and state your opinion but call it what it is.

It pisses me off that Theon's hair is the wrong colour, but I'm aware that it's seriously not a big deal and I need to get over it.

[Volderon]

Imagine if we used all this negative energy in this thread and channeled it positively...we could be on Mars right now.

[Kat]

Sensitive, much?

I'm not talking about the people that say "oh man, wish they had shown that", but if you read through the threads, there are enough viewers/readers that have said that the show ISN'T doing its job, ISN'T adhering to the books and is therefore WRONG WRONG WRONG. There's a difference between constructive criticism and fanboy griping. I'm sure you can tell what is what. Or maybe you can't.

The complaints I find the most tedious are the ones where fans of the books have complained that someone's importance or some relationship hasn't been emphasized enough in the first two episodes. Cases in point:

• Because of leaving out "Don't tell Sansa", Arya and Sansa's relationship isn't set up well enough
• Because of leaving out "It should have been you," Catelyn and Jon's relationship isn't set up well enough
• We've only had a few lines from the Hound, and he becomes more important later, so where's the character introduction?
• Why haven't we heard Theon's name yet?

It does occasionally feel like some people who had high expectations for HBO covering this because it can stay true to the subtleties of the books want an awful lot of exposition or foreshadowing This Character Will Be Very Important Later On treatments, which makes me wonder how heavy-handed fans want the TV show to be. I mean, other things on the show have had the aforementioned foreshadowing treatment, such as Dany's dragon eggs. Should everything feel like that? I'm kind of tempted to let it unfold at its own pace, and if some secondary character becomes important later on, so be it, because until he became a Secondary Character with Motives in the books, I never thought much about the Hound at all. He was just a guy doing bad stuff for the Lannisters. Same with Theon- he was just a background guy hanging around shooting arrows well and smirking, until he became important in the second book. You can only cram so much foreshadowing and/or exposition into the introductory episodes of a show, and when someone pops up as a surprisingly interesting or useful character, isn't part of the fun being surprised at how interesting or useful they are? Compare this to numerous network TV shows, especially crime shows where you can predict how useful someone is going to be to the plot if they have one unnecessary line early in the episode or are given a special guest star credit, and then you're totally unsurprised later on when that person is "unexpectedly" the killer. But, I guess as a fan of The Wire, I prefer being confused to having heavy-handed explanations laid out for me by the writers. :dunno:

[Kalbear]

Where did I say that people weren't welcome here?

If each change is going to bring out the hater in you, maybe it's not worth watching.

I merely offered an alternative way of viewing the show to those that are having panic attacks and hate-fests.

Yes, and that alternative was 'don't watch it'.

Fuck if I care, REALLY, but I can offer my point of view just as much as anyone else can. And if you are so up in arms about my "attitude" just view it as my way of snarking.

There's a difference between snarking about the show and snarking about people talking about the show. And as was painfully obvious, I did object to your means of snarking.

[Kat]

<mod>

And quit sniping at each other. You're making me regret agreeing to this gig.

And people who are surprised by the level of negativity in general, well......I'm not sure you're going to find any discussion site where there isn't a ton of nitpicking; there's a reason why Winter is Coming has "House Gatewatch" because every little thing becomes a big issue with fans. Snowgate, Chairgate....etc) Welcome to discussing stuff with geeks on the internet. Have a cup of tea and a spoonful of salt, and take a few grains of salt with every post you read here. I think people are, overall, happy with the show, but it's really hard to talk about how amazingly happy you are for post after post, and you know people want to get their post count up so they can have a cool-ass custom title eventually. That's what we do it, for, right? :uhoh:

</mod>

[Aelinor Keath]

Another option would be that Ceresi was talking about a sickly incest baby that did die of a fever. She added the looked like Robert part in a hamfisted attempt at sympathy. It would explain the emotion she showed at the baby dying.

[alguien]

OK...

So. Anyway.

A lot of the criticisms I've noticed tend to reflect people's wish lists. People who liked Catelyn's "It should have been you" or Jon and Arya's "Don't tell Sansa!" were naturally a bit disappointed not to see it. Pretty normal.

I think the point is not to let that ruin the whole experience and also not to bring others down. I don't think anyone is saying you can't criticize the show. Generally the stuff I've read on the boards (and elsewhere) has been remarkably positive, even with criticisms (some valid--some I think are nitpicky)

Back to a specific moment, I honestly don't think it would have played well with for Catelyn to say, "Jon it should have been you" while Ned was right there. We know that's one of the few things he'll get angry at her about. What she said felt right given the circumstances.

They could have had Ned not arrive until after Jon left, I guess. But honestly, I think it was kind of a cool transition--so awkward--not only does Ned have to say goodbye, he has to do it right after his wife was talking to his bastard!--and lead to Catelyn's great "17 years ago" bit--which was a necessary bit of exposition as a well as a great dramatic moment.

Adaptation is all about making choices and so far, from what I'm seeing, I'm really finding myself agree with most of D&D's choices here! :thumbsup:

[Kat]

Another option would be that Ceresi was talking about a sickly incest baby that did die of a fever. She added the looked like Robert part in a hamfisted attempt at sympathy. It would explain the emotion she showed at the baby dying.

I thought of this, but in retrospect, Cersei is kind of paranoid about being careful when she's talking to Jaime, and given how Robert and Ned are such good friends, making up things to tell your husband's best friend's wife seems awfully risky. Can you imagine?

Ned: Hey Robert, Cersei was trying to comfort my wife and I heard you lost a little black-haired son. How sad!

Robert: Well, I was hoping my firstborn would look more like me, but he was actually blonde.

Ned: Oh.

Robert: Oh.......huh.

Ned: ....

Robert: ....

[Bronn Stone]

Imagine if we used all this negative energy in this thread and channeled it positively...we could be on Mars right now.

Mars isn't red enough.

The atmosphere is just too thin for my tastes.

Plus the dust. There is a ton of dust.]

If you want to go to Mars, you are an idiot.

How dare you complain about my whiny posts?

[Kalbear]

They could have had Ned not arrive until after Jon left, I guess. But honestly, I think it was kind of a cool transition, and lead to Catelyn's great "17 years ago" bit--which was a necessary bit of exposition as a well as a great dramatic moment.

It's also a different take on it; not only is she upset at Jon for representing Ned's dishonor, but she's really, truly, pissed off at Ned for agreeing to leave and possibly do it again. It reminded me a lot of the reaction after a spouse has been cheated on - for Cat, this is that thing that Ned does that will always be associated with cheating on her.

She's worried about him, and worried about Bran, and knows it's dangerous - but she's also worried that he'll fuck around on her. Which is an interesting and very believable reaction from her. It also goes to the kind of Ned/Robert buddy movie vibe, where she not only thinks Robert and KL is dangerous, she actively thinks that Robert is on some level a bad influence on Ned. Given their conversations she seems pretty right of it.

[Kat]

Mars isn't red enough.

The atmosphere is just too thin for my tastes.

Plus the dust. There is a ton of dust.]

If you want to go to Mars, you are an idiot.

How dare you complain about my whiny posts?

The ice caps look fake. :rolleyes:

[SwordoftheMorning]

Come now Sword, just admit it, you hate all black people!

ok ... Well Played Sir. :fencing:

[Volderon]

Mars isn't red enough.

The atmosphere is just too thin for my tastes.

Plus the dust. There is a ton of dust.]

If you want to go to Mars, you are an idiot.

How dare you complain about my whiny posts?

How about we exile you to Mars...you could be like Viserys. And you could be a King too. We could call you the Dust King. :P

[Mya Stone]

I thought of this, but in retrospect, Cersei is kind of paranoid about being careful when she's talking to Jaime, and given how Robert and Ned are such good friends, making up things to tell your husband's best friend's wife seems awfully risky. Can you imagine?

Ned: Hey Robert, Cersei was trying to comfort my wife and I heard you lost a little black-haired son. How sad!

Robert: Well, I was hoping my firstborn would look more like me, but he was actually blonde.

Ned: Oh.

Robert: Oh.......huh.

Ned: ....

Robert: ....

:rofl:

Kat, that's like a hilarious Funny Or Die skit spoofing the show.

[Mya Stone]

It's also a different take on it; not only is she upset at Jon for representing Ned's dishonor, but she's really, truly, pissed off at Ned for agreeing to leave and possibly do it again. It reminded me a lot of the reaction after a spouse has been cheated on - for Cat, this is that thing that Ned does that will always be associated with cheating on her.

She's worried about him, and worried about Bran, and knows it's dangerous - but she's also worried that he'll fuck around on her. Which is an interesting and very believable reaction from her. It also goes to the kind of Ned/Robert buddy movie vibe, where she not only thinks Robert and KL is dangerous, she actively thinks that Robert is on some level a bad influence on Ned. Given their conversations she seems pretty right of it.

Not to mention she watched him feel up and make out with a serving wench right in front of the queen, no less. Yeah, this side of Cat is a tad more believable to me. Family , Duty, Honor is great and all, but you need to be dutiful to honor your family, and having a bastard doesn't quite embody that.

[ZombieWife]

Not if the fever was the mother's (and the cover story).

ETA: I'm sure we'll hear more about this story down the road.

Jon Arryn also "died of a fever." Seems fishy to me!

[Alexia]

Just to chime in on the question of nitpicking/snark, while I haven't been particularly active in these threads, the simple fact is that I'm not going to be posting in here about the storylines of the series. I spend a fairly substantial amount of time in the General forum and that's where I'll put in most of my substantive posts on Sansa and Catelyn catfights. The occasional show-specific comment, like did Cersei kill her baby, but that's about it.

What I will be doing when I post here is mostly commenting on how the show lives up or down to my personal imagery and to the storylines in the books. For example, the nitpick about the hair not looking right, or disliking the change (I really disliked it) where Cersei called Sansa to the court instead of Ned and the Lannisters found Arya and let her keep her hand, et al. So nitpicking and perhaps the occasional snark, but that really doesn't mean I dislike the show. And I think most of the people who are nitpicking don't dislike the show - they simply had a different visual of what it would be like whereas we are getting D&D's visual instead. And nitpicking can be fun sometimes too! :P

[*]Why haven't we heard Theon's name yet?

I actually think this is a fair criticism - right now he's the NAMELESS ONE who hangs out with Starks and likes to kill puppies. They could have had Ned say something like, "Robert, you remember my ward Theon?" and it would have been done with.

Although, since I'm extolling the virtues of nitpicking now, here's a Theon-related one for you. I wanted to see Theon kick the head! :)

[ZombieWife]

Sensitive, much?

I'm not talking about the people that say "oh man, wish they had shown that", but if you read through the threads, there are enough viewers/readers that have said that the show ISN'T doing its job, ISN'T adhering to the books and is therefore WRONG WRONG WRONG. There's a difference between constructive criticism and fanboy griping. I'm sure you can tell what is what. Or maybe you can't.

There is a big difference. I honestly just skip the BS. You can usually tell that someone has a bug up their bum. Not only are they going to gripe loudly (and often) about it, but they will do absolutely nothing to get said bug out. One can only conclude that they enjoy it up there. And that's honestly the kind of sheer assery that I refuse to indulge.

But, I also think those types are in the minority. Most people make some thoughtful comments (minus the X is ugly, old and fat type pre-teen stuff).

I mean, you have to account for the folks who still think that Brad Pitt should have been cast as the Kingslayer and that Angelina Jolie should have been Cersei (seriously thinking that this was, in fact, a clear possibility). It shows a lack of knowledge about the film/television industry and a serious lack of marbles.

I do think you can spot the griefers and I'm happily skipping past those posts. Why bother when (as you said in a further post) they will never, EVER be satisfied. Let's just hope they never procreate as I can see these people as parents having strokes and heart attacks on the sidelines because their 4-year old isn't a perfect clone of David Beckham. What can you do about people like that? Nothing, except ignore them.

[silkymoonshine]

I loved it. I liked it better than the first, it seemed as if it had less going on and the pacing was much better.

I sobbed so much during the goodbyes, I did too when I re-read it last week. It saddens me that the family will never be reunited. I really lost it when Jon was saying goodbye to Bran.

More than "It should have been you" (which I agree, was over the top in the book), I missed Cat's speech about how she prayed and prayed that Bran would stay with her and was now feeling *really* guilty. It would have been a nice moment for Cat and made her seem less bitchy (specially without the "it should have been you" line). Not that I think she is bitchy, but I've read that in more than one place.

I really don't think Cersei would have murdered her own child. They seem to be making Cersei less crazy and more sympathetic, so I really don't think show!Cersei would have done it. Maybe it was a premie and that's why Cat didn't know, when the baby was born, they knew he wouldn't make it, so it was never announced throughout the kingdom. The fact that Robert held Cersei down while they took the baby's body away might be yet another reason why she hates him. That's when I was sold that she actually cared for the baby.