Toe Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Exactly what is the status of the TV series as canon or not? There are several possibilities. I guess the answers in part depend on how involved Martin has been in the creation of the TV series.1. Direct contradictions between books and TV series. The books are likely to be seen as the canon version but is this always necessarily correct? There have been extensive changes in the original plan for the series like the now absent "time gap" after book three which would allow many of the characters to become older. Since Martin has been involved in the TV series may not some of the changes be seen as corrections or revisions to the story?2. No contradictions but the TV series provides additional details. This includes much of the more visual material in the TV version that are not described in the books.3. No contradictions but the TV series are missing topics from the book. Arguable Martin will have ensured that all the major players and factors that will be important in the final parts of the story are present in the TV series. So if something is missing from the TV series that is in the books this could be seen as evidence for not being important for future events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Neither applies. The show and the books are separate entities. The show has free reigns to do what it wants, but for now it is staying very faithful. (but not completely) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 The book and TV show are completely separate things. Each has its own canon, references, cast and storyline. In the books, Gared was executed by Eddard. In the TV show, Will was executed instead. Both facts are true for their respective continuities.Where canon concerns are more of an issue is with regards to things like backstory and ancillary material. Is the HBO map of the Free Cities canon for the books? I'd say provisionally: the map is based on GRRM's own maps and material that will be used in ADWD. At the same time, is the backstory and history in the novels exactly the same as for the TV series? Apart from the rolling back of the date of Roberts Rebellion - from 283 to 281 - it seems to be identical in almost every other respect. But other things may change. The TV show hasn't mentioned the Rhoynar, so have the Rhoynar been eliminated from the backstory or are they still there but simply not influential enough to be mentioned as part of Robert's titles? We don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toe Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 Neither applies. The show and the books are separate entities. The show has free reigns to do what it wants, but for now it is staying very faithful. (but not completely)Is this official or just an opinion? Even if this is the official policy, it will still be hard to stop the TV series from becoming inofficial "semi-canon". Especially where it provides various detail that are not contradicted by the books.I think the status as canon or not depends on how involved Martin is in the TV series. Does he have the final word on everything to be included or not? Does he decide on or suggest changes from the books? At the very least, as stated above, I would expect that he has ensured that all that the major plot elements and characters that will be important in the final books are not absent from the TV series. Which means one can use the TV series to speculate somewhat regarding what will happen in future books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I'm sure the Rhoynar are not erased completely, given that Nymeria is still named after their queen. Probably just not considered major enough to be on the same level as the First Men an the Andals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 George has previously said that only what's published in the books is canon. Anything published elsewhere -- comments in the SSM, things he's given to license holders, etc. -- is at best canon-until-he-changes-his-mind-in-the-books.I'm not even sure that The World of Ice and Fire will be something we can consider 100% canon, as it's not something he's worked on solely by himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I think the status as canon or not depends on how involved Martin is in the TV series. Does he have the final word on everything to be included or not?No.Does he decide on or suggest changes from the books?No. He may give feedback regarding adaptation choices, but it is not something he has suggested AFAIK. He recently noted that a minor character who dies in book 3 instead dies in season 1 of the show, which did not seem to please him too much. (Nor did he seem upset about it)At the very least, as stated above, I would expect that he has ensured that all that the major plot elements and characters that will be important in the final books are not absent from the TV series. Which means one can use the TV series to speculate somewhat regarding what will happen in future books.He has ensured no such things. HBO owns the rights, they can do whatever they want with them. The show-runners do ask for advice on occasion (such as casting), but GRRM does not have the final say over anything.Again - the show canon is not the book canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toe Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share Posted April 29, 2011 No.No. He may give feedback regarding adaptation choices, but it is not something he has suggested AFAIK. He recently noted that a minor character who dies in book 3 instead dies in season 1 of the show, which did not seem to please him too much. (Nor did he seem upset about it)He has ensured no such things. HBO owns the rights, they can do whatever they want with them. The show-runners do ask for advice on occasion (such as casting), but GRRM does not have the final say over anything.Again - the show canon is not the book canon.Are you involved in the production? Or is this just personal opinions by an anonymous poster? Even if Martin only gives silent approval, this likely means that he thinks that all major plot elements that will become important in the later, now unpublished books are in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 The fact that you have no way of knowing anything about what GRRM approved and what he didn't means you simply cannot take the TV as canon. Again, George has said that only what he publishes is canonical. Even things he's directly said in e-mails or things he's given to licensees is not canon -- he reserves his right to change his mind when he actually writes the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEvilKing Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I consider GRRM-written episodes canon.That and the obvious fact that Cersei is Jon Snow's mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJtheCrow Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 The books are canon. GRRM has only written one episode of the TV series and will probably write one in the second season. How could anything else be considered canon when it's not written by GRRM himself? He has virtually no say in the TV series so HBO can really do pretty much anything they want with it. We as fans just have to hope they stick to the story as closely as possible. Given the medium and the differences that may entail, we will certainly see some changes, hopefully small changes that help the TV series progress using the books (canon) as the blueprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakhkubar Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 GRRM has only written one episode of the TV series and will probably write one in the second season.Even those episodes will conflict with the books. So even the episodes written by Martin CANNOT be considered canonic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJtheCrow Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Manakhkubar Even those episodes will conflict with the books. So even the episodes written by Martin CANNOT be considered canonic.Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 It's canon for the TV show. Which is a separate entity from the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormon Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 The fact that you have no way of knowing anything about what GRRM approved and what he didn't means you simply cannot take the TV as canon. Again, George has said that only what he publishes is canonical. Even things he's directly said in e-mails or things he's given to licensees is not canon -- he reserves his right to change his mind when he actually writes the books.As Ran has said (twice now) .... The books are the end all, be all.At best, be it a nod, wink, or a slight nudge.... we can only infer things from the TV show. For example: One of the big debates on the boards is: Is Syrio alive or dead? The TV show may give us a nod one way of the other..... and this may be Martin's current intention. But Maritin is not going to write himself into a corner, just because the TV show implied it. What's written counts, what's shown can only imply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athelstane Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Haha, sounds like GRRM has all his ducks covered in terms of what's Canon and what isn't. Crafty little fellow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop437 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I consider GRRM-written episodes canon.That and the obvious fact that Cersei is Jon Snow's mother.That is just so wrong. Your posting on a spoiler thread but I wont give it away. But there is no evidence at all that Cersie is Jons mother. You clearly have not read any of the books because if you had that statement would seem laughable to yourself as well. What makes you think that she could be? I sincerly would love to hear anything you can offer as proof to that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinstar Dragon Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 This will be a problem much later on, but it will be interesting if Martin can finish the books before the tv show catches-up. He's got five years to write two books. Lots of time for some. Not so much for him based on his recent track record.In some anime I've seen, the tv show is usually faithful to the manga/original comic. But when it catches up, it needs to deviate into its own story to keep going. Hopefully it never gets to that with Game of Thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ja4161 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 This will be a problem much later on, but it will be interesting if Martin can finish the books before the tv show catches-up. He's got five years to write two books. Lots of time for some. Not so much for him based on his recent track record.In some anime I've seen, the tv show is usually faithful to the manga/original comic. But when it catches up, it needs to deviate into its own story to keep going. Hopefully it never gets to that with Game of Thrones.A Song of Ice and Fire haven't been Martin's sole projects either..., likely one of the reasons they've taken so long to write. He has interspersed several novellas, editing for Wild Cards, lecturing, etc. It may be in the contract with HBO that he complete the series in the allotted timeframe. In which case, he'll probably set some of the other projects aside temporarily. Who knows. As far as canon goes..., the story is what's laid out in the books. HBO may take liberties but they can't make too many significant changes because they have no idea where Martin is going to take the final books. Some of the changes might simply exist by accident as well. Nobody can say, for a certainty that Gared was the one beheaded because the book never uses his name. Similarly, although Royce grabs Will by the neck, this is where the scene ends. I agree with everybody that Gared was the one beheaded and that Will died at the hands of the white walkers, BUT not a single person can prove this in the text. It's very probable that a misinterpretation was made translating from book to script. Unfortunately, that discrepency likely stems from the fact that they chose not to have Royce combat the white walker and subsequently turn into a wight. One of the few choices thus far that I disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usurper Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 That is just so wrong. Your posting on a spoiler thread but I wont give it away. But there is no evidence at all that Cersie is Jons mother. You clearly have not read any of the books because if you had that statement would seem laughable to yourself as well. What makes you think that she could be? I sincerly would love to hear anything you can offer as proof to that statement.I think that was the idea. Pretty sure he meant it as a joke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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