Unsatisfying nature of ASOIAF vengeance

[Free Northman]

The uniquely horrible nature of the injustices that are committed against key protagonists in this series is surely designed, at least in part, to generate a craving on the part of the reader for equally satisfying vengeance. REVENGE is a driving force for many of us reading the books, I would think. It certainly is for me.

However, given this emotional need, does anyone else feel robbed by the indirect way in which some of the key transgressors receive their come uppance?

It is all very dramatic and thematic for Tywin to be killed by his own son (supposedly), and for him to rot prematurely while beig mourned, and for various people from Dorne to the Riverlands to say that he is surely howling in hell now, but it leaves this massive need unfulfilled to have seen a STARK overcome him, and have him dying with the knowledge that he was defeated by kin of the Young Wolf, or by the heir to Winterfell or by the little sister come assassin who penetrated all his defenses and let him KNOW what vengeance was being delivered for prior to his death.

A supporter of the main protagonists (the Starks by virtue of the number of PoV characters from their family) will now be left with the knowledge that Tywin died believing that the Young Wolf had been defeated without any cost to himself.

The same goes for Joffrey, who seems to have been killed by either Littlefinger or Ollena Tyrell, and a whole bunch of people on Arya's list, INCLUDING the guy who threw a 7 year old Bran from a balcony and murdered Harwin and his loyal Stark guardsmen in cold blood (you know who I'm talking about) and who now seems to be the subject of a major redemption theme. I mean, how can you even think of writing someone who throws a child off a balcony to his intended death as some kind of tragic hero? That's 100% sociopathic behavior if I ever saw it, and you don't redeem a personality like that. And yet, that's what Martin appears to be trying to do with the new Lord Commander.

The most satisfying deaths in the series, to me so far, have been the Tickler, or Polliver or whichever of the people on Arya's list she actually killed herself. My problem is that her list is growing shorter by the book, but the Starks have had almost no hand in its shortening. And it futher seems that half the evil bastards who committed the atrocities against them are now suddenly being writen as sympathetic characters, despite chucking children off balconies with a smile.

Will we eventually see some direct vengeance being delivered in a major "Rains of Castemere" type of way, by a reborn House Stark sowing salt on fields once cultivated by House Lannister or Frey, or will the greater importance of the battle against the Others mean that the Starks will be left unavenged for all eternity?

[TrueMetis]

While I'm not big on revenge I've got to say I think some of their deaths were as close to poetic justice as you can get, Joff being killed on his wedding day, and Tywin being killed by the son that was most like him. Both just seemed to work.

ETA, and Jaime is a cripple it's unlikely that he will ever come close to being the swordsman he once was. For a man like Jaime losing his sword hand is the same as Bran losing his legs.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Will we eventually see some direct vengeance being delivered in a major "Rains of Castemere" type of way, by a reborn House Stark sowing salt on fields once cultivated by House Lannister or Frey, or will the greater importance of the battle against the Others mean that the Starks will be left unavenged for all eternity?

UnCat is slowly killing off every Frey or Lannister she can find, one by one. Pretty direct vengeance there. I'm sorry if you wanted Robb or Arya to do the vengeance rather than Cat, but it's being done one way or another.

As for Jaime throwing Bran out the window. *shrug* Yeah it was pretty ruthless and evil (for the record, he didn't do it with a smile but "with loathing"). These books are not meant for poetic justice, though. They're meant to make us feel conflicted about what's right and wrong. Should we still want Jaime to die for crippling an innocent boy, now that he's made it his life's mission to protect an innocent boy? Maybe, maybe not.

On the vengeance topic, I enjoyed watching Brienne kill the bloody mummers one at a time in aFfC. They were obviously deserving of even worse deaths, but finally we see a true knight killing some of the most evil people in the books. Unfortunately GRRM again "spoiled" it by having Brienne's face chewed off and then hanging her (maybe she gets down, we'll see). Vengeance doens't come cheap in this world, and neither does honor.

[Lord Godric]

Well, I have to say that personally the deaths of both Joffrey and Tommen were satisfying, for different reasons. Tywin's because he was killed by his son whom he always thought was lesser than him, and Joffrey's because he was killed by Olenna who saw this Joffrey's exterior did not want her granddaughter to be married to a monster. Both were equally satisfying for me. Now, I'm just waiting for Cersei.

As for Jaime, after I read GoT I began looking in the ASoIaF thread on another website and I saw people saying they were sympathetic to Jaime, and I thought they were absolutely insane. How could anyone be sympathetic to Jaime after he threw Bran out the window. But GRRM was very effective at making me feel sympathetic for Jaime, and I praise him for that.

Now if he makes me feel sympathy for Theon, I will really commend him becaus I have Theon more than I ever hated Jaime.

So while I do read out of revenge, at least a little, I think we have been shown plenty of revenge. Tywin and Joffrey's death, Jaime losing his hand, etc. It is satisfying enough for me, but I do expect more for characters like the Ironborn, Freys and Cersei.

[Free Northman]

The mere fact that Jaime isn't having daily nightmares about chucking Bran out the window is proof of his sociopathic nature. He regrets losing his hand, he regrets letting Cersie make a fool of him, he regrets the contempt the killing of Arys earned him, but barely remembers throwing an innocent child off a roof?

[shinytoyrobots]

However, given this emotional need, does anyone else feel robbed by the indirect way in which some of the key transgressors receive their come uppance?

Not really. Seems to me like you're looking for some artificial and unrealistic "oh, he got screwed by them, so it should only right that vengeance should come directly back" black and white outcome rather than a believable story. Of course the Starks aren't going to get direct vengeance. The only people in that family who've been in a position to move towards that kind of vengeance have been particularly incompetent at the whole Game of Thrones.

[Free Northman]

Not really. Seems to me like you're looking for some artificial and unrealistic "oh, he got screwed by them, so it should only right that vengeance should come directly back" black and white outcome rather than a believable story. Of course the Starks aren't going to get direct vengeance. The only people in that family who've been in a position to move towards that kind of vengeance have been particularly incompetent at the whole Game of Thrones.

You are correct that I am expecting something along those lines. And I am within my rights to do so. If you wanted a truly realistic story, as you claim to support, then the Starks would be wiped out, the Lannisters would be triumphant and as victors they would write the history. And that would be the end of it. But we KNOW that ain't gonna happen. The question is, to what degree will evil get its due.

As for who will be in the position to exact said vengeance, well, we have to look no further than my favourite character - Arya Stark. But we'll have to wait a few more years for her to start assasinating left right and center.

Unfortunately the whole valonquar prophecy shows that Arya won't kill Cersei - her own brother will apparently do that deed. But there's hopefully a whole lot more Lannisters, Littlefingers and Bolton's to kill after Cersei gets her due. And I'm counting on Arya to do just that. I'm just hoping Daenerys, Tyrion and all the other neutrals don't shorten the list too much before she gets busy scratching names off herself.

[iamthedave]

the deaths of both Joffrey and Tommen were satisfying, for different reasons.

What did Tommen ever do to you? :0

Seriously though, Jaime HAS been redeemed. Martin did it. The guy's one of the most popular characters in the series. Polarizing, but still popular. Plenty of people are hoping to see him survive the entire series, though I don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell of doing that.

Tyrion might, but I feel Casterly Rock is going to be short a family pretty soon... or home to a short family ba-dum tish.

[Xenophon]

Personally, I think this is one of the best things about the series. Revenge is rarely clean-cut and tidy in RL, so I like that GRRM hasn't made it so in the books.

[Free Northman]

What did Tommen ever do to you? :0

Seriously though, Jaime HAS been redeemed. Martin did it. The guy's one of the most popular characters in the series. Polarizing, but still popular. Plenty of people are hoping to see him survive the entire series, though I don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell of doing that.

Tyrion might, but I feel Casterly Rock is going to be short a family pretty soon... or home to a short family ba-dum tish.

So is it realistic for someone who kills a child for selfish reasons to suddenly become an honourable and virtuous man? I'm just asking, seeing as Martin's key virtue is his incredibly realistic character portrayals, by all accounts. So just how realistic is it for someone to lose no sleep over throwing a child off a building, and then to suddenly disapprove of the fact that Sybelle Westerling sold out the Starks at the Red Wedding? How do you reconcile the two different portrayals of the man?

I call that unrealistic in the extreme.

[dcon]

Agree with Tywin's death. It was awesome/anticlimactic at the same time. Not sure how that works, but it does for me.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

So is it realistic for someone who kills a child for selfish reasons to suddenly become an honourable and virtuous man? I'm just asking, seeing as Martin's key virtue is his incredibly realistic character portrayals, by all accounts. So just how realistic is it for someone to lose no sleep over throwing a child off a building, and then to suddenly disapprove of the fact that Sybelle Westerling sold out the Starks at the Red Wedding? How do you reconcile the two different portrayals of the man?

I call that unrealistic in the extreme.

People are complicated? We all have done things we knew were wrong. And yet that doesn't stop us from having a reasonable grasp of what's right most of the time.

With Jaime it's wayyy more extreme than any of us will ever deal with. But I don't think it's that unrealistic.

No more unrealistic than Tyrion being capable of raping his catatonic wife in front of his father, and later telling Joffery he should give his sympathies to Catelyn for Bran's fall. Very few people are going to act in exactly the same way in all circumstances. I don't know anyone like that.

[Xenophon]

So is it realistic for someone who kills a child for selfish reasons to suddenly become an honourable and virtuous man? I'm just asking, seeing as Martin's key virtue is his incredibly realistic character portrayals, by all accounts. So just how realistic is it for someone to lose no sleep over throwing a child off a building, and then to suddenly disapprove of the fact that Sybelle Westerling sold out the Starks at the Red Wedding? How do you reconcile the two different portrayals of the man?

I call that unrealistic in the extreme.

Seems quite realistic to me. Most of the early Ottoman Sultan's began their reign by having all of their siblings killed, yet many of them seem were quite scrupulous about honoring treaties, guest rights, etc.

Jaime's a killer; he's been trained to kill since he was a child. So it doesn't surprise me at all that he is able to shrug a murder off. Doesn't speak well of him, but it seems perfectly plausible to me.

[Baleraxar]

Personally, I think Tywin's death was one of the most satisfying in the series, and obviously designed for reader catharsis. I guess it's not satisfying if you only care about the Starks, but this isn't "A Song of How the Starks Were Awesome;" they have to share glory with the other characters, and Tyrion is probably the most popular character in the series (as well as GRRM's favorite). Can you really deny that Tyrion deserved his vengeance, though? Yes, Tywin fought Robb, but it was all just politics. From his perspective Robb was a traitor and he did what he had to do, nothing personal. With Tyrion everything was personal.

As for Jaime, do you really think people are incapable of hypocrisy and unwillingness to face up to their own actions? Seems realistic to me. Besides, as ruthless as it was, Jaime acted to protect his own children, 2/3 of whom are completely innocent. Do you really think Tommen and Myrella deserve to die? Jaime was in a difficult situation. Admittedly one he put himself in, but no one claimed he was perfect.

[Gregor Barksdale]

The mere fact that Jaime isn't having daily nightmares about chucking Bran out the window is proof of his sociopathic nature. He regrets losing his hand, he regrets letting Cersie make a fool of him, he regrets the contempt the killing of Arys earned him, but barely remembers throwing an innocent child off a roof?

Bran is not really innocent, he violated their privacy.

[Free Northman]

Personally, I think Tywin's death was one of the most satisfying in the series, and obviously designed for reader catharsis. I guess it's not satisfying if you only care about the Starks, but this isn't "A Song of How the Starks Were Awesome;" they have to share glory with the other characters, and Tyrion is probably the most popular character in the series (as well as GRRM's favorite). Can you really deny that Tyrion deserved his vengeance, though? Yes, Tywin fought Robb, but it was all just politics. From his perspective Robb was a traitor and he did what he had to do, nothing personal. With Tyrion everything was personal.

As for Jaime, do you really think people are incapable of hypocrisy and unwillingness to face up to their own actions? Seems realistic to me. Besides, as ruthless as it was, Jaime acted to protect his own children, 2/3 of whom are completely innocent. Do you really think Tommen and Myrella deserve to die? Jaime was in a difficult situation. Admittedly one he put himself in, but no one claimed he was perfect.

No he didn't act to protect his children. He felt nothing when Joffrey died, and he doesn't seem to have any particular paternal feelings towards Myrcella or Tommen either.

[El-ahrairah]

Vengeance is certainly an important theme in the story, as it motivates so many characters' actions, but I'm not wrapped into it myself as an outside spectator. "Avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord'." Overall justice is what matters, not feeding personal bloodlust. Be it the Oath of Fëanor & Sons or the ghastly machinations of UnCat, quests for revenge don't tend to end well. Still nice to watch Arya making her prayers though.

While I'm not big on revenge I've got to say I think some of their deaths were as close to poetic justice as you can get, Joff being killed on his wedding day, and Tywin being killed by the son that was most like him. Both just seemed to work.

And in neither case here were the naughty fellows slain by the people they had most wronged. So it's not really revenge. Just a satisfying turn of affairs.

[Brother Wolf]

Personally, I think Tywin's death was one of the most satisfying in the series, and obviously designed for reader catharsis. I guess it's not satisfying if you only care about the Starks, but this isn't "A Song of How the Starks Were Awesome;" they have to share glory with the other characters, and Tyrion is probably the most popular character in the series (as well as GRRM's favorite). Can you really deny that Tyrion deserved his vengeance, though? Yes, Tywin fought Robb, but it was all just politics. From his perspective Robb was a traitor and he did what he had to do, nothing personal. With Tyrion everything was personal.

Yes. Someone got awesome revenge on Tywin - perhaps it wasn't who some readers thought it should be, but it was still revenge. Personally, I'm quite satisfied how this one happened. Tyrion basically saved King's Landing, but his father still refused to even recognize his son as his own. Honestly, though, the answer to the OP's overall question is that in life, bad people sometimes win and never get their comeuppance. GRRM doesn't skirt around that issue. Real history is full of unhappy endings - sometimes, instant karma does not in fact get you.

[Free Northman]

Yes. Someone got awesome revenge on Tywin - perhaps it wasn't who some readers thought it should be, but it was still revenge. Personally, I'm quite satisfied how this one happened. Tyrion basically saved King's Landing, but his father still refused to even recognize his son as his own. Honestly, though, the answer to the OP's overall question is that in life, bad people sometimes win and never get their comeuppance. GRRM doesn't skirt around that issue. Real history is full of unhappy endings - sometimes, instant karma does not in fact get you.

His father to refused to recognize him, because Tyrion isn't his son, and Tywin knows it. But he can't announce it to the world, because that would give him horns, and he can't bear being laughed at.

[Brother Wolf]

His father to refused to recognize him, because Tyrion isn't his son, and Tywin knows it. But he can't announce it to the world, because that would give him horns, and he can't bear being laughed at.

Nightflyer, is that you? I kid, I kid. :)

If this is true and Tywin announces it, who's going to know differently and object? Kevan?