In defense of Ned

[Jojen]

It seems clear from the thread about the "smartest" character that most readers seem to put Ned somewhere near the bottom if not actually at the bottom of the list. Why the Ned-hate?

Yes, he made some very bad decisions, but remember, he's a Man of the North. We're reminded throughout GoT that their ways are not the ways of the Southron Lords. Winterfell is distant and isolated from the other kingdoms, both physically, politically, and emotionally. Up there, Ned's cares are few--keep his family and his people safe from harm, particularly from the Beyond the Wall. Winter is coming, after all. That's where his focus is. What goes on south of The Neck--ie, the Game of Thrones--is secondary and pales in comparison.

When he leaves that behind for King's Landing, his naivete shouldn't come across as stupidity. The old ways aren't for fools, and Ned isn't foolish to believe in them. The way GRRM writes about it signals that those ways are important--and not just for Ned's sake. I wonder how much better off the other kingdoms would be if they all believed the same way? I'm not trying to set this up as an Old Ways vs. Faith of the Seven argument, because former seems less like an organized religion and more of a personal code of ethics.

Ned isn't used to dealing with southerners, at least since Robert took the throne. Outside of the North, other than Robert and Jon Arryn, there seemed few he trusted. No matter how honest and good-intentioned Renly might have acted, he was still a southerner and ignorant of "the clean simplicity" of the North. Perhaps Ned's fault lies in believing everyone should think and act like he does. "War should not be a game," for example.

Now, I don't know why he came to trust, or at least rely on, Varys and Littlefinger. That's a sticky question. Perhaps he felt he needed help from someone, and those two seemed to know the most. His mind wasn't made for intrigue, and so maybe he decided to swallow his pride and take counsel from those who lived for it, never believing they'd take advantage of him. Varys won him over by speaking plainly and honestly about the king, about "the paper shield" that was the Kingsguard, and about the threat of the Lannisters. If it were not for LF's connection with Cat and House Tully, I'm not completely sure he would have listened to him, but who knows? LF told him to his face not to trust him, and Ned still did.

*Sigh* I guess some decisions are stupid ones after all.

[Hazl]

I wouldn't call Ned stupid, but he's not very good at playing the game of thrones. He's an excellent leader, evidently both militarily and in peace-time, but he's not at all prepared for the politics of King's Landing. He's right, his place is in the North, that's where his skills are best suited and most needed. The worst thing that ever happened to him was being made Hand.

Did Robert screw up in appointing Ned? Did he have any other reliable options? I think he sensed that things were falling out of his grip, even if he didn't realize the very imminent danger of the Lannisters, and it made sense to him that his most reliable general in war would be the most suitable Hand. Could he have given it to Stannis, or even Renly? At the point he was at by Jon Arryn's death, I don't see anyone else he could possibly trust, and I see plenty of reasons why he wouldn't consider either of his brothers suitable. Perhaps appointing Ned was also a move to prepare for the war he anticipates - he's clearly a strong military leader, and a great man to have around during war.

So, yeah, not stupid, but not suitable for the intricate politics of KL. He was used to and expected honor-bound honest servants, not the scheming and backstabbing kind of LF and Varys, who, to be fair, are shockingly good at that.

[Spring Bass]

Ned mentions early on that his dead elder brother, Brandon, was the one who was raised to be Lord of Winterfell. I wonder if Ned was mainly raised to serve as his banner-man, and lead his armies into battle. It might partially explain why he's such a capable military leader, and leader in the North (where the politics are usually more straightforward), than he is in the South.

[Xenophon]

Did Robert screw up in appointing Ned? Did he have any other reliable options? I think he sensed that things were falling out of his grip, even if he didn't realize the very imminent danger of the Lannisters, and it made sense to him that his most reliable general in war would be the most suitable Hand.

Yeah, I'm assuming the other great Houses would have balked at Tywin as Hand, and Robert only really seems to trust the Houses that joined him in revolt, so Ned was pretty much his only option. Ideally, he probably should have made a Tyrell or Martell Hand, to make them complicit in his usurpation, but IIRC, Mace Tyrell was incompetent and the Martells were still hostile to him and the Lannisters.

[Theon Greyboy]

Ned is far from stupid. He knows the game as well as if not better than most noblemen - but he's so honor-bound that he often makes very poor decisions.

[oba]

It seems clear from the thread about the "smartest" character that most readers seem to put Ned somewhere near the bottom if not actually at the bottom of the list. Why the Ned-hate?

Yes, he made some very bad decisions, but remember, he's a Man of the North. We're reminded throughout GoT that their ways are not the ways of the Southron Lords. Winterfell is distant and isolated from the other kingdoms, both physically, politically, and emotionally. Up there, Ned's cares are few--keep his family and his people safe from harm, particularly from the Beyond the Wall. Winter is coming, after all. That's where his focus is. What goes on south of The Neck--ie, the Game of Thrones--is secondary and pales in comparison.

When he leaves that behind for King's Landing, his naivete shouldn't come across as stupidity. The old ways aren't for fools, and Ned isn't foolish to believe in them. The way GRRM writes about it signals that those ways are important--and not just for Ned's sake. I wonder how much better off the other kingdoms would be if they all believed the same way? I'm not trying to set this up as an Old Ways vs. Faith of the Seven argument, because former seems less like an organized religion and more of a personal code of ethics.

Ned isn't used to dealing with southerners, at least since Robert took the throne. Outside of the North, other than Robert and Jon Arryn, there seemed few he trusted. No matter how honest and good-intentioned Renly might have acted, he was still a southerner and ignorant of "the clean simplicity" of the North. Perhaps Ned's fault lies in believing everyone should think and act like he does. "War should not be a game," for example.

Now, I don't know why he came to trust, or at least rely on, Varys and Littlefinger. That's a sticky question. Perhaps he felt he needed help from someone, and those two seemed to know the most. His mind wasn't made for intrigue, and so maybe he decided to swallow his pride and take counsel from those who lived for it, never believing they'd take advantage of him. Varys won him over by speaking plainly and honestly about the king, about "the paper shield" that was the Kingsguard, and about the threat of the Lannisters. If it were not for LF's connection with Cat and House Tully, I'm not completely sure he would have listened to him, but who knows? LF told him to his face not to trust him, and Ned still did.

*Sigh* I guess some decisions are stupid ones after all.

I've frequently defended Ned on this and other boards.

Ned's not a dunce. He was an extremely effective war-time leader and a strong Warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell. From that standpoint the guy's record speaks for itself.

With respect to Ned as player of the game of thrones, I think Ned gets more than a little bit of a bad rap. Ned didn't think that, for example, telling Cersei he knew about the incest was a smart move. We're privy to his POV in this instance, and it seems pretty clear that Ned was thinking back to what happened before, during, and after Robert's Rebellion. He was thinking about the murder of Rhaegar's children. He told Cersei because he didn't want the same thing to happen to her children and he wanted to give her a chance to get them to safety. It's also not as if he didn't have a back-up plan in case Cersei didn't heed his warnings. His back-up plan failed because he trusted Littlefinger. And if that makes him stupid, then the stupid label needs to be applied to pretty much every character we've seen with the exception of Varys.

To be fair to Ned, there aren't too many characters we've met who haven't let emotion cloud their judgment. Look at Tyrion when it came to Shae. Look at Tywin when it came to his children. Tywin was an extremely shrewd man, yet calling Tyrion's bluff with respect to saying "whore" doesn't strike me as a particularly bright move. He continually misjudged Cersei and Jaime, as well. Does it mean Tywin's a dunce?

[reiver]

His back-up plan failed because he trusted Littlefinger. And if that makes him stupid, then the stupid label needs to be applied to pretty much every character we've seen with the exception of Varys.

I don't think people really trust Littlefinger as such. He has his uses to them and they feel they have power over him that they can control him or be safe from him. When he does do stuff for others such as promising to wed Myrcella to Robert Arryn or negotiating the Tyrell pact he is offered rewards for his services not expected to just go and do his duty. While they don't see Littlefinger's game they aren't stupid enough just to assume his compliance.

Ned on the other hand expects Littlefinger to do what is right because that's what Ned would do. This is in contrast to almost everything Ned has seen of Littlefinger and in defiance of what Littlefinger himself tells him. Hell when Littlefinger urges Ned to declare himself regent he practically spells out his position. It's obvious what a Stannis kingship would mean for littlefinger "Stannis is no friend of mine, He'll give us a new council for a certainty". The man lays out a plan, that's obviously not just been concocted, to sieze the kingdom and Ned dismisses it entirely. Worse he then sends Littlefinger to perform the act that will secure his downfall it's giving a man an axe and telling him to chop his legs off and expecting him to be ok with that. He's maybe not utterly dense in some things but when it comes to understanding people he's hopeless past the point of naivete.

[oba]

He's maybe not utterly dense in some things but when it comes to understanding people he's hopeless past the point of naivete.

This is where folks lose me. Ned never struck me as particularly naive. He has principles and he sticks to them, but he's not some hayseed who's not used to making tough decisions. By the end, he needed the City Watch in order to have a chance against Cersei, et al. He called Littlefinger and asked him to make good on the promise he'd made to Cat. He doesn't think to himself what a trustworthy guy Petyr is. Littlefinger's good at what he does. That's why he's situated where he is at the end of Book 4.

As far as Ned not being able to judge people, this is what Ned thinks to himself late in Book 1:

Aside from his own retainers, there was scarcely a man in this city he trusted. Littlefinger had concealed Catelyn and helped Ned in his inquiries, yet his haste to save his own skin when Jaime and his swords had come out of the rain still rankled. Varys was worse. For all his protestations of loyalty, the eunuch knew too much and did too little. Grand Maester Pycelle seemed more Cersei's creature with every passing day, and Ser Barristan was an old man, and rigid. He would tell Ned to do his duty.

That actually seems like a fair assessment. Ned doesn't know the extent of Littlefinger's scheming, but, again, who does? Look at the way Littlefinger plays the Lords of the Vale. The guy's shrewd and is continually underestimated by the realm's nobility. Ned's just one of many "scalps" he's taken.

[dcon]

I wouldn't call Ned stupid, but he's not very good at playing the game of thrones.

First sentence sums it up perfectly

[Lost Time]

Yeah, Ned's not stupid. He's just the most honorable and compassionate man in the kingdom and the story. And it is this trait that makes him ill-conceived to play such a rigged game as the game of thrones.

For you The Wire fans:

This game is rigged, man. We like the little bitches on a chessboard.

[zmflavius]

As a comparison, I've always thought of Ned as being a chess player who has just entered a room full of masters, and has just learned the game. He knows how the game is played, and knows that the other players in this room are masters, but if he wants to leave, he has to win the games he play. He knows all the rules, but is wholly inexperienced to deal with the combinations, tactics, and discovered attacks he will face from the other players. He eventually loses completely, after hanging several pieces in his game with Cersei, and being completely demolished by Littlefinger.

[shapur]

It seems there is a general acceptance of the idea that Ned was't suited to be Hand because of all the intrigues at the Court. Yet, I will speak blasphemy, and say that a Hand's buisiness is not to deal with intrigues. A Hand's buisiness is to govern the realm. Yes, he might have to resort to intrigue from time to time, and we see, that Ned wasn't totally incompetent at that. For example, let's compare Tywin to Ned. They both seem to rule in the same style, their main difference the ruthlessness of the late Lord Lannister, which Ned didn't share. Otherwise they are both commanding figures, able to rule, and rule well. Yes, Tywin was certainly more shrewd, yet he wasn't a master of intrigue, his only great accomplishment in that field being the RW, which in fact we don't know how exactly it was planned and the exact part of Tywin in the planning. I would argue that the extent of his actual involvement is contested throughout these forums.

I will go a step further and declare that Ned's downfall was Robert. He was an utterly incompetent King, and that continuously undermined Ned's authority. There were several instances when Robert actually handed Ned to the Lannisters(i.e. the Lady affair, and Jaime attacking Ned in the streets). Generally, I suppose that the Hand speaks with the voice of the King, and anyone who disagrees is free to try to convince the King that the Hand was wrong. But here what happens is the exact opposite. We have a King that he put his best buddy in the position, only to not listen to him at all. Ned is forced to try to convince Robert, because Robert just doesn't give a fig about what's happening and only wants to be left alone. When Tywin faced such a situation, with Joff, he was firmly in control, but that's because, well, any other Lannister except Joff did what Tywin said. When Tywin faced a King as bad as Robert(yes, I'm talking about Aerys), that was undermining his authority, and he was too independent from Tywin, he simply fled. He resigned his post and went back to the West. I think that was because he knew that in the end, he wouldn't be able to do his job at all, nevermind that he could be in danger anytime. Now, that raises the question, why Ned din't leave? IIRC, though, Ned wishes to be back in the North quite a few times, and he only stays because his reason for accepting the Handship wasn't personal power, but for the good of Robert and the realm, a concern Tywin didn't share. Or not at such a degree, anyway. I do believe that the books established more than once that had Robert listened to him every now and then, Ned wouldn't be dead by now.

[Misthaufen]

It seems there is a general acceptance of the idea that Ned was't suited to be Hand because of all the intrigues at the Court. Yet, I will speak blasphemy, and say that a Hand's buisiness is not to deal with intrigues. A Hand's buisiness is to govern the realm. Yes, he might have to resort to intrigue from time to time, and we see, that Ned wasn't totally incompetent at that. For example, let's compare Tywin to Ned. They both seem to rule in the same style, their main difference the ruthlessness of the late Lord Lannister, which Ned didn't share. Otherwise they are both commanding figures, able to rule, and rule well. Yes, Tywin was certainly more shrewd, yet he wasn't a master of intrigue, his only great accomplishment in that field being the RW, which in fact we don't know how exactly it was planned and the exact part of Tywin in the planning. I would argue that the extent of his actual involvement is contested throughout these forums.

I will go a step further and declare that Ned's downfall was Robert. He was an utterly incompetent King, and that continuously undermined Ned's authority. There were several instances when Robert actually handed Ned to the Lannisters(i.e. the Lady affair, and Jaime attacking Ned in the streets). Generally, I suppose that the Hand speaks with the voice of the King, and anyone who disagrees is free to try to convince the King that the Hand was wrong. But here what happens is the exact opposite. We have a King that he put his best buddy in the position, only to not listen to him at all. Ned is forced to try to convince Robert, because Robert just doesn't give a fig about what's happening and only wants to be left alone. When Tywin faced such a situation, with Joff, he was firmly in control, but that's because, well, any other Lannister except Joff did what Tywin said. When Tywin faced a King as bad as Robert(yes, I'm talking about Aerys), that was undermining his authority, and he was too independent from Tywin, he simply fled. He resigned his post and went back to the West. I think that was because he knew that in the end, he wouldn't be able to do his job at all, nevermind that he could be in danger anytime. Now, that raises the question, why Ned din't leave? IIRC, though, Ned wishes to be back in the North quite a few times, and he only stays because his reason for accepting the Handship wasn't personal power, but for the good of Robert and the realm, a concern Tywin didn't share. Or not at such a degree, anyway. I do believe that the books established more than once that had Robert listened to him every now and then, Ned wouldn't be dead by now.

I think you have it entirely right here, which is why I quoted the entire thing.

Robert was completely unsuitable to be king and the Seven Kingdoms would have been better served with almost any other king. He wastes money, refuses to rule, indulges his "needs", and enables intrigue, all the while being the Usurper. Add in the problems Robert causes with his wife......and her family......

As such, his Hand has an impossible task. Robert's weakness enables the schemers.

Ultimately, going back to Robert's Rebellion, the Seven Kingdoms would have been better off if Rhaeger had a nice sit-down at the Trident, reaching the agreement to remove the Mad King (and do right by his girlfriend). With Aerys retired, Rhaeger would have been a much better king than Robert and the Lannisters would not have been empowered as much.

Ned is in a cesspool caused by Robert. Yes, he should have ceased absolute control of King's Landing, arrested Cersei and he children, Littlefinger, etc. and ordered Stannis to take up the throne, but Ned was recovering from injuries at the time. Moreover, it was Cat's fault for causing his injuries with her ill-thought out arrest of Tyrion.

Ned planned his hand poorly, but he was not stupid. While his honor played a role in getting himself killed, his wife and his best friend caused most of his problems and limited his choices and opportunities.

[Reaper]

It's just strange that after already having fought in a battle for the throne when he was younger, he didn't pick up on any political strategy.

There's no way this is possible unless he's mentally on the slow side.

[Reaper]

And ..

Allowing the destruction of your friends and family for 'honor' is stupid.

So either way he's got some issues up top.

[Nukelavee]

Here's something i find funny - The whole "Ned is stupid" concept.

Everybody here rocks at post-game critiquing him, but...

Seriously - none of you have EVER been screwed over by somebody you trusted, or by a situation you got thrown into when you had no idea of what was happening?

Keep in mind, Ned went from an enviroment where he absolutely understood things, to a brand new job, in a distant city, with no back up, no briefing, and multiple plots already in motion.

He did make mistakes, and they cost him everything - but, honestly, name a character not already involved in the plotting who could have sorted it out, besides Tywin, who had a least the advantage of being related to one faction.

[Greywolf2375]

It's just strange that after already having fought in a battle for the throne when he was younger, he didn't pick up on any political strategy.

There's no way this is possible unless he's mentally on the slow side.

Well, being a great military commander doesn't necessitate being politically strong. Even so, Ned is not weak politically, he is constrained by his beliefs.

And ..

Allowing the destruction of your friends and family for 'honor' is stupid.

So either way he's got some issues up top.

Unless someone's belief in their honor is that strong. Ned didn't exactly allow it - from the cheap seats it is easy for us to see he made a long term mistake in not taking Renly's offer, in going to Cersei with the option he gave. However, his beliefs, his honor is what drove that - it doesn't mean he is dumb, just that his beliefs drove him to a certain set of choices. Bad at Southron political games? maybe, almost certainly. Dumb? Not really.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Ned isn't stupid, but he is very very naive. He has a code of honor and loyalty AND he assumes that everyone else will follow that same code unless he's seen otherwise. He trusts LF because he has no reason to think that LF is not trustworthy. He also has no reason to think LF is trustworthy. Hell LF even says that "Not trusting me is the smartest thing you done since you got here." Or something along those lines. But Ned made the decision to trust LF anyway. And that was his ultimate mistake.

There is nothing wrong with being honorable. There is nothing wrong with Ned warning Cersei. Ned assumes that LF is going to act the way he would in LF situation and that's his downfall.

[Desch]

I wouldn't call Ned stupid. At best he was too naive for the job. And yes, it wasn't everything his fault. If the political climate weren't that bad, Robert not totally incompetent and uninterested in politics, Littlefinger more trustworthy, Catelyn and Lysa not that stupid and Sansa not such a gossip the whole story goes in another direction. But of course it went that way. And we (as reader) can see where Ned made the wrong decisions.

And he wasn't that unfit for the job. He just made the mistake that he thought he was on top of the events and that he had some trustworthy people at KL. He did what he did, because he thought it was the honorable thing to do. Maybe he thought that all (or maybe at least some) of the people are the same way as he is.

But the talk with Cersei was totally stupid. Maybe you could argue that he misjudged the people and the situation. But even if he knew he was sitting in a snake pit, he didn't react accordingly to it. In this way, he should have did the same (as quickly) as did Renly.

[theLaughingTree]

It seems clear from the thread about the "smartest" character that most readers seem to put Ned somewhere near the bottom if not actually at the bottom of the list. Why the Ned-hate?

Not putting Ned on the list on most intelligent characters is not hate. Its just reality. That doesn't make Ned an idiot or stupid but he simply isn't one of the most intelligent characters of the series.

On my post I laid out criteria for different types of intelligence: "Book smarts", "street smarts", "magical/mysteries smarts", and "emotional smarts". IMO Ned does not qualify to be near the top of any of those lists and he does not qualify to be on a cumulative list. Ned himself admits that he cannot play the game of thrones very well and is being outmaneuvered by all the players in Kings Landing.

The only category I did not mention that Ned would qualify for is pure martial/military smarts. And even there I don't see Ned as the knowledgeable strategist that Stannis is (Stannis knows and calculates the military strength of every house great and small in Westeros). Its definitely debatable whether Ned has greater military intelligence than others like Doran Martell, Tywin Lannister, Euron Crows Eye or even perhaps Barristan Selmy.

If I was making a rough top five for the each of the 5 categories of intelligence Ned would only place on the military list and he would be at #5.

Cumulatively when you add in book smarts, street smarts and other categories, I just don't think there is any way any objective reader could argue Ned is smarter than Archmaester Marwyn, Doran Martell, The Queen of Thorns, Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger, Rodrik the Reader, Rhaegar or Jaqen H'ghar. It would be very debatable whether Ned is even as all around intelligent as other military leaders like Tywin, Stannis, Euron, Barristan and others. Factoring in magical/mystery knowledge Ned is less intelligent than his bannerman Howland Reed for sure who may deserve to be on the smartest list if we knew more about him. Reed's children are certainly highly intelligent and wise for their age.

So not putting Ned on the smartest characters list is just being realistic. That doesn't mean he is dumb (Rorge and Biter are dumb) but recognizing that Ned is not one of the smartest characters in the series is not hate.