(Book Spoiler) Where the Hell is Ghost?

[Seerow]

What's really ironic is that I've seen some viewers on other sites complaining about the wolves switching between real dogs and 'obviously fake CGed animals' at random times. That's right folks, CG has gotten so good at this point that people will accuse a real dog of being obvious CG because of how a particular shot looks to them.

I'm not sure exactly how common this interpretation is, but if it is widespread, they may as well just go with cheap CG, since people will assume that's what they're doing regardless.

[felice]

It's very difficult to get animals -- even trained ones -- to do what you want them to do in front of a camera. It may seem very simple, but what you see onscreen in a 5 second shot might have taken hours to shoot.

If you want them to do something specific, sure; if you just want them to be there and don't mind precisely what they're doing, not so much. I wish the director(s) had been a bit less fussy; I'd rather have seen the wolves behaving less than perfectly appropriately, or badly CGIed, than having them absent to this extend. Ghost's absence was particularly jarring when Jon rides off for the Wall in ep 2...

[Arya The Assassin]

Yeah, never was too extreme. But good CGI animals are very rare, and as you said, expensive. Avatar, for example, took years to make, cost a bloody fortune, ...

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the VFX budget for Avatar was bigger than the budget for the entire first season of GoT.

... and had the advantage of depicting imaginary animals whose motions aren't familiar.

The only animal that had no counterpart in real life was the four-legged horses, as far as I can recall. The other animals and humanoids were not that differently structured than the creatures we're already familiar with here on Earth. The mo-cap and animation was very good to excellent in my opinion.

On a TV show budget, I'd much rather have rarely-seen animal actors than non-realistic CGI wolves in every shot.

If the CG wolves look (very) bad, then it would be better to use real animals, I agree. The point is, though, that if the CG-wolves can look realistic enough, without breaking the bank, then it should be considered an option, because it gives the filmmakers more freedom. In some cases it can be very difficult or even impossible to train a dog to do exactly what you want (or there could be other factors, such as danger to the animal itself, other actors, etc.).

And, to play the devil's advocate, perhaps we're better off only seeing the wolves occasionally. It could distract from the main action if we saw them in every scene.

I agree, I don't think the wolves need to be seen that often, even though I love big dogs (my sister has an Alaskan Malamute that looks very similar to the dogs in GoT). If the wolf's action or presence is imperative to the scene, then of course the wolf should be seen. But every time there's a dog in the scene, there are extra costs involved (because of the handlers), even if the dog doesn't really do anything.

Speaking of dogs: Didn't Sophie Turner (Sansa) adopt one of the dogs? (in real life, I mean)

[Xenophon]

Speaking of dogs: Didn't Sophie Turner (Sansa) adopt one of the dogs? (in real life, I mean)

I remember reading that too. IIRC, she adopted the dog that played Lady, which is very cute.

[Arya The Assassin]

If you want them to do something specific, sure; if you just want them to be there and don't mind precisely what they're doing, not so much.

There are still costs involved, because of the handlers. But at least the risk of having to do (costly) reshoot after reshoot is much lower if the animal is just sitting there :)

I wish the director(s) had been a bit less fussy; I'd rather have seen the wolves behaving less than perfectly appropriately, or badly CGIed, than having them absent to this extend.

I personally wouldn't like to see bad CG wolves in a series with great production values and relatively high CG standards such as GoT.

[Pink Walder Frey]

Ghost is on a quest to rescue a direwolf princess, because D&D had to establish a romantic love story.

It is known.

[Arya The Assassin]

I didn't notice your reply until now:

Would the "Cinesite CG Dogs" and "Wolf Animation in Maya" have been significantly more expensive than using live animals?

I don't think it would necessarily cost significantly more (if you add the cost of reshoots, lost time, etc. -- in addition to handlers -- when dealing with real animals), but it's hard to say for sure. Because it depends not only on the level of quality/photorealism you're aiming at, but also the number of effects shots. In a TV production you don't have the same amount of time as you do on a big budget movie, so the effects will be time-constrained as well.

But like I mentioned earlier, they could go for a more cost-effective mix between CG and live-action animals, depending on the situation and the needs of the scene.

I'd actually be fine if they used the Cinesite-level of quality to do CGI wolves. They don't look entirely realistic, but they're good enough, and you could make the direwolves be as big as you want, while doing whatever you want.

Cinesite did the Emmy/BAFTA-winning visual effects on Rome, BTW (another HBO series). Here are the links to the companies that were involved in the VFX work on GoT:

Screen Scene Post Production Facilities, Dublin, Ireland

Blue Bolt Visual Effects, London

I suspect they'll have to go to full CGI direwolves as time goes on. They'll simply be too big to use real dogs unless you do Lord of the Rings-style tricks.

Yeah, if they want to convey the size and ferociousness of a full-grown direwolf, then a big CG-direwolf will serve better than a real dog. In the first episode we got a glimpse of how big these wolves can be.

[Son of Thunder]

Ghost is on a quest to rescue a direwolf princess, because D&D had to establish a romantic love story.

It is known.

It is known.

[Bormon]

So what did everyone think of Ghosts appearance in this week's episode?

[Kaitscralt]

A+

In before: "But he made a noise! :crying: "

[Bronn Stone]

I thought it was proof positive of the wisdom of the decision to downplay the use of the dogs in the first season.

A simple scene 'dog sits on actor and growls' had to be shot basically with the growling happening without the actors present. We only see Ghost in the shot with the actors from behind and only briefly and all the dog is doing is sitting there. This tells me that getting that growl was a bear and a half for the crew.

I assume that next season the wolf characters will have grown too large to be portrayed by dogs and will have to become CGI. I hope the budget reflects the costs of doing them reasonably well. I don't expect feature quality, but some here will.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

I was so happy when they showed Ghost this episode, so I wouldn't have to skip over a gazillion more "Where is Ghost?" complaints for this episode's discussion (not that I don't think people had a legitimate gripe but it did get rather tiresome to hear so much complaining over a matter I was fairly confident they'd correct soon enough anyway). Alas, people seem unhappy with him growling, a detail which I honestly forgot from the book. I don't think it matters too much; he could still be quiet 99% of the time for all we know. The "Ghost" name is still fitting for his white color. That said, it was a nice touch in the book and helped Ghost to stand out a bit more (even though I totally overlooked that detail until my latest reread).

[Brienne the Beauty]

A simple scene 'dog sits on actor and growls' had to be shot basically with the growling happening without the actors present. We only see Ghost in the shot with the actors from behind and only briefly and all the dog is doing is sitting there. This tells me that getting that growl was a bear and a half for the crew.

That's what I thought, too. Those dogs must have been a nightmare to train, as they are in the show a bare minimum of times.

Honestly, they might have done better cutting them. Ghost is the only one that's really cool and involved in the story, so perhaps they should have had Jon pick him up in the wilderness beyond the wall and do him entirely CGI. Blasphemy, I know. :)

[Arya The Assassin]

That's what I thought, too. Those dogs must have been a nightmare to train, as they are in the show a bare minimum of times.

Some of the actors have said outright that they found the dogs to be a nightmare to work with, even though they love the animals themselves.

Do you know how long it took to shoot the last scene in episode two, where Lady is bound to a pole? You see the dog for only 20 seconds, yet it took 3 hours (!) to finish the scene, according to Sean Bean, because the dog wouldn't sit still.

Kit Harington (Jon Snow) wasn't too excited about the dogs either (although he also praised them, but for other reasons). When he did a good take the dog would often ruin the shot. When the dog finally did what it was supposed to (after dozens of takes), Kit didn't feel that his acting was quite on the spot anymore. Usually, editors pick the actor's best takes in a given scene (and are therefore partly responsible for the performance you see in the final cut of the film), but in this case they had to pick the shot were the dog hit its 'marks' in order to save time. I can understand why some of the actors weren't always too happy about the animals.

[iheartseverus]

It puzzles me why they picked that given breed of dog, if its so nororiously difficult to train. Surely, there are many husky-ish, wolf-ish breeds to choose from. Some breeds love learning new 'tricks' and showing off how good they are, while other breeds, especially the males, seem to take it as a personal insult that a human is trying to give them orders, trying to make them do something. I had a female Rottweiler that was the smartest girl in the world--she could learn new behaviors in minutes and never forgot them or failed to do them perfectly. I also had a male Great Pyrenees, yikes. Sweet, lovely giant, but all I had to do to make him turn left was to indicate I wanted him to turn right. Took about 5 years to get him to 'sit' and even then he'd only obey if I had a dog cookie in hand, and even then only if he really wanted the cookie.

Just surprised they didn't choose a more training-amenable breed for the show.

[Songlian]

Honestly, they might have done better cutting them. Ghost is the only one that's really cool and involved in the story, so perhaps they should have had Jon pick him up in the wilderness beyond the wall and do him entirely CGI. Blasphemy, I know. :)

Indeed. :)

I'm glad they took the trouble to work with the dogs. Seeing Grey Wind at Robb's table made my day. And I bet it wasn't that hard to make him sit down and lick his paw.

Ghost probably is another matter, his role being much more important.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

It puzzles me why they picked that given breed of dog, if its so nororiously difficult to train.

My guess is they really liked how they looked and underestimated exactly how difficult of a challenge it would be to overcome the training difficulties. Probably by the time they realized it, they had already invested too much time, money and filming to back out.

[Knight Of The North]

I have a question about this:

How precise does a dog have to be in it's acting? I mean, the point they made about Sean Bean's scene with Lady, that it kept moving - how much? Was it jerking it's head out of the shot or just twitching? Is it quite a broad example of acceptable or does the dog have to be spot on?

And what breed are they using?

[Kaitscralt]

I have a question about this:

How precise does a dog have to be in it's acting? I mean, the point they made about Sean Bean's scene with Lady, that it kept moving - how much? Was it jerking it's head out of the shot or just twitching? Is it quite a broad example of acceptable or does the dog have to be spot on?

It probably depends on the scene. You can't have a hyper dog spazzing out or it will either distract your eye from the humans or take away the emotionality of a scene.

And what breed are they using?

They used Northern Inuits... one of, if not the, closest resembling dogs to a wolf there is.

[Xenophon]

It puzzles me why they picked that given breed of dog, if its so nororiously difficult to train.

And what breed are they using?

I believe they're Northern Inuit Dogs (a breed designed to look very similar to wolves). According to wikipedia, they're not particularly obedient.